quality of Rugby referees

thebaz

One of the biggest moans in football, is the quality and standard of refereeing, as a lover of both sports , I believe the quality of refereeing in rugby is worse -- paricularly as George Hook stated on Saturday ,referees giving unfair advantages to the bigger team , maybe to promote themselves up the refereeing ladder .. i remember in a world cup match a few years ago Fiji were robbed against France, by a partisan referee, Argentina have also had to suffer due to not being an influential nation. Even in schools rugby , I have witnessed the bigger teams get the refereeing advantages ... Whats going on ? do we lack an Alex Ferguson to highlight the injustices.

Chucky the tree

No difference in football though. The big teams will always get an advantage. Look at mike riley when he refs at old trafford.

Sangre

You probably notice it more when the bigger teams get the rub of the green (I'm not saying it doesn't happen though).

The whole situation at rucks is getting annoying at this stage. Different refs police them completely differently. Some allow a lot longer to hold on or who call a ruck much quicker. Others totally ignore when the tackler doesn't roll away. The difference between SH and NH refs is also a bit of a joke as well.

toomevara

Logged on to raise this subject only to find I've been beaten to it. it's a bit of a hobby horse of mine and one I've raised before, but the rugby union referee is a very unusual animal in the world of professional sport and this was no more clearly illustrated than in this year's utterly surreal six nations campaign, surely never was so much owed by so many to so few...particularly the rugby loving sectors of France and Italy. They are the last vestige of the old amateur game, a law unto themselves and utterly unaccountable for their manifold idiocies.

It's really galling to watch a group of 30 highly skilled professionals do their level best for their respective countries only to have it all undermined by the inept, incompetent buffoon in the middle. Their inconsistency across the board is absolutely mystifiying, and indeed, while I accept that rugby union is a complex game, ferchrissakes it aint that bloody complex, and if a feckwit like me can grasp it, surely these 'professionals' can. The breakdown, the scrum, the forward pass (dont even get me started) all areas which each referee seeems to interpret in an hugely different way...surely unacceptable....Is some semblance of consistency too much to ask???

Now let me make clear that this is in no way sour grapes re: the 6N outcome, we got what we deserved and were the authors of our own downfall.But while we're at it let's not just leave this at referees either, the linesmen seem, to my eyes at least, to be mere ornaments, dealing only with issues such as field goals and touch finds and often, even these simple duties seem to be utterly beyond their meagre capabilities. Witness the Sean Lamont sinbinning on saturday...laughable. And as for TMO's, the insane decision by the TMO to allow the final french try in response to the refs request is utterly inexplicable. Once the ref had gone upstairs the TMO's decision should have been the binding one. There is NO way he could have seen the grounding of the ball from the video evidence, and if the ref had seen the grounding he should have awarded the try in the first instance. I mean we're only talking about the outcome of the six nations...you'd think everyone would have brought their A game, but hey.....

Video evidence is now becoming a crutch for poor, indecisive referees with no freakin' bottle, the complete antithesis to the original reason for its introduction. God be with the days of Clive Norling et al. I shudder to think what fresh enormities await us at the RWC......

athtrasna

Wasn't the 4th official brought in to be the watchdog for the referee? As Wales learnt to their detriment against Italy, even that's not necessarily a good thing.

Marshy

toomevara wrote:

Logged on to raise this subject only to find I've been beaten to it. it's a bit of a hobby horse of mine and one I've raised before, but the rugby union referee is a very unusual animal in the world of professional sport and this was no more clearly illustrated than in this year's utterly surreal six nations campaign, surely never was so much owed by so many to so few...particularly the rugby loving sectors of France and Italy. They are the last vestige of the old amateur game, a law unto themselves and utterly unaccountable for their manifold idiocies.

It's really galling to watch a group of 30 highly skilled professionals do their level best for their respective countries only to have it all undermined by the inept, incompetent buffoon in the middle. Their inconsistency across the board is absolutely mystifiying, and indeed, while I accept that rugby union is a complex game, ferchrissakes it aint that bloody complex, and if a feckwit like me can grasp it, surely these 'professionals' can. The breakdown, the scrum, the forward pass (dont even get me started) all areas which each referee seeems to interpret in an hugely different way...surely unacceptable....Is some semblance of consistency too much to ask???

Now let me make clear that this is in no way sour grapes re: the 6N outcome, we got what we deserved and were the authors of our own downfall.But while we're at it let's not just leave this at referees either, the linesmen seem, to my eyes at least, to be mere ornaments, dealing only with issues such as field goals and touch finds and often, even these simple duties seem to be utterly beyond their meagre capabilities. Witness the Sean Lamont sinbinning on saturday...laughable. And as for TMO's, the insane decision by the TMO to allow the final french try in response to the refs request is utterly inexplicable. Once the ref had gone upstairs the TMO's decision should have been the binding one. There is NO way he could have seen the grounding of the ball from the video evidence, and if the ref had seen the grounding he should have awarded the try in the first instance. I mean we're only talking about the outcome of the six nations...you'd think everyone would have brought their A game, but hey.....

Video evidence is now becoming a crutch for poor, indecisive referees with no freakin' bottle, the complete antithesis to the original reason for its introduction. God be with the days of Clive Norling et al. I shudder to think what fresh enormities await us at the RWC......

TBH I dont think you have a clue about the game if you go out and make comments like that. You say refs are inept buffoons and you have a better grasp of the game. I mean all credit to sweeping statements but what a load of crap. Your arguments have no substance and you seem to be just looking for a rant. Go out and become a ref if you're so unhappy. Dont just talk such rubbish on an online forum.

zAbbo

I think it's a fair point, they're pro's, but some of the decisions during the 6 nations were totally amateur.

Off the top of my head,

Forward passes in Italy / Ireland game
Lamont sin binning
Wilko's try in the corner with a clear foot in touch, decision by a TMO !
Wales 10 seconds kick to touch

Chucky the tree

toomevara wrote:

And as for TMO's, the insane decision by the TMO to allow the final french try in response to the refs request is utterly inexplicable. Once the ref had gone upstairs the TMO's decision should have been the binding one. There is NO way he could have seen the grounding of the ball from the video evidence, and if the ref had seen the grounding he should have awarded the try in the first instance. I mean we're only talking about the outcome of the six nations...you'd think everyone would have brought their A game, but hey.....

Oh lord.

Why was in utterly inexplicable to award the last french try? The ref said he saw the grounding, but wanted to make sure there was no knock on before hand? As you said, its the outcome of the 6 nations, so surely its the right decision to go to the video ref to be 100% sure?

The TMO was never asked about the grounding of the ball though, since the ref saw it being grounded himself.

Also, of course its sour grapes from you, if it wasnt you would of went on a long winded rant about how italy were raped by terrible reffing decisions that went against them in the Irish match.

Diamondmaker

In defence Rugby IS that bit more complex than many other team sports.

If you were to take a survey of 100 random fans about random incidents you again would get inconsistency, everyone looks at the game and its different facets from different angles, one ref to the other in the same manner.

Im sure some refs ll call a fwd pass a lot better than others and the others may police the ruck a little better.

The inconsistencies in rugby reffing come down to the complexitiy of the rules, the relative newness of professionalism, the speed at which professionla teams change and adapt to find loop hole is alos much faster than reffing can keep up with and most of all as it is a complex game with so so many things going on at any one pont the human inconsistincy is bound to become more obvious !

Fans of every sport gripe in the same way about the relevant refs, Rugby is no different. Where the hell did the whole spec savers thing come from?

Ginger

There seems to be inconsistencies between the northern and southern rugby referees. Mainly its from the differences in the way the game is played. Which can lead to a lot of frustration from either team. You see it when a nothern ref is refing a match between north and south teams and vice versa.

I think as a referee like diamondmaker says see different things in certain situations. Where one ref will see slight tomfoollery after the whistle and ask the players to calm down, another would bin all in sight. Anyone remember the incident with the two scrum halves in the Guiness Prem where both were yellow carded for sniping at each other?

All refs make mistakes if they didnt we would have no one to blame for things not going our way

thebaz

Diamondmaker wrote:

In defence Rugby IS that bit more complex than many other team sports.

I take your point that rugby has complex rules, but my point is that the weaker less established teams such , as Italy , Fiji or Argentina rarely get a fair rub of the green . To me this strikes me of refs trying to gain brownie points with rugby bigwigs -- as stated also saw examples of this in the Leinster schools cup, where apart from one referee (Roland) --- the standard of refereeing was awfull.

Diamondmaker

thebaz wrote:

I take your point that rugby has complex rules, but my point is that the weaker less established teams such , as Italy , Fiji or Argentina rarely get a fair rub of the green . To me this strikes me of refs trying to gain brownie points with rugby bigwigs -- as stated also saw examples of this in the Leinster schools cup, where apart from one referee (Roland) --- the standard of refereeing was awfull.

I think this one is too subjective to possibly substantiate, we all support the underdog and this phenomonen perhaps contributes to this idea.

I dont agree or disagree with your point, I just think its impossible to discuss with any certainty. Any example of bias one way can have a counter example of bias in the same game. its all down to how someone percives a [particular fixture.

Just like refs one independant spectator will say the ref favoured the underdog and then an other will say the opposite.

daveirl

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Laslo

Marshy wrote:

TBH I dont think you have a clue about the game if you go out and make comments like that.

I happen to agree with the guy and I've played rugby for 20 years and watch as far back as I can remember. The standard of refereeing in NH rugby is utterly, utterly appalling.

toomevara

Marshy wrote:

TBH I dont think you have a clue about the game if you go out and make comments like that.

well, get her....do know a wee bit about the game, played it for ten years and been watching it pretty fanatically for two thirds my adult life. To be fair though it was a bit of a rant, well hey it was cathartic for me, even if it did annoy your good self (another upside), incidentally if you want to see just how well rugby can be refereed just take a look at the thirteen man code and the way they run their officials. Still stand by most of what I've said, but chastened a wee bit by chucky's as always interesting and, non-personalised, (take note old chum) comments.

CJhaughey

Refereeing is a very hard job and TBH most referees do a pretty good job, of course when a ref does make a mistake it is pretty noticeable, Donal Courtney didn't do himself much good with his displays in the 6N.
However I think that the TMO should have discretion as to what is allowed as a try and also in relation to incidents on field, The Rory Lamont non-yellow card was a prime example of where the TMO should be allowed to make a statement to the referee exactly the same as a Linesman.

RuggieBear

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Is that the whole you can fight for any ball in contact be it on the ground (ruck) or what ever..?