News just in from The City North is that the Garda have decided the tournament cannot

fabsoul

http://www.antesup.com/boards/showthread.php?t=789

Shortstack

There is still a chance this may go ahead. Discussions are taking place at the moment with the garda. Check Antes Up for updates, Tom will post when a final decision has been made.

Mellor

im lost, is there any reason why this cant go ahead?
any special circumstances here?

Ollieboy

well lads I'm just home and very disappointed, its nobody fault except the Garda's. I would love to know how they can threaten a hotel and get away with it, its a bit ego problem with them and in my eyes and a total abuse of power. I'm considering ringing a radio station on Tuesday to bring this matter to the nations attention as I feel its wrong and somebody should explain how this can happen, if a Garda or polition was in volved they should be force to explain there action to the people that pay there salary, but again, all tournaments in this country are illegal so that might be a waste of time.

Anyway, I feel sorry for the organiser as he's loss a fortune, they refund all the entries and gave each player a etc £200 which I feel was very fair, some people were not happy with this, but this kind of explains why there's problem in the world when you hear there attitude.

Also like to thank Karlh for ringing me straight away when he heard, on his own evening off to let me know the money will be refund etc.

Wreck

This is terrible news - really hope its just a one off and not the start of some kind of crackdown. I'd imagine someone must have made some kind of complaint for the gardai to get involved.

Fatboydim

Was there any reason given? How does this effect other tournaments? For example GJP were going to hold a festival in the same hotel.

Jesus Wept

I have been thinking that they haven't applied through the proper channels? This is just a guess, based on the fact its been stopped (and others go ahead all the time) and the fact that to date, the organisation has been poor in my view:

- structures not posted on the website, only saw a post on boards with them from the last few days
- MTT satellites Betfair were 6 handed?! For a 9/10 handed tournament? This is bizarre to me.

Solksjaer

Ollieboy wrote:

well lads I'm just home and very disappointed, its nobody fault except the Garda's. I would love to know how they can threaten a hotel and get away with it, its a bit ego problem with them and in my eyes and a total abuse of power. I'm considering ringing a radio station on Tuesday to bring this matter to the nations attention as I feel its wrong and somebody should explain how this can happen, if a Garda or polition was in volved they should be force to explain there action to the people that pay there salary, but again, all tournaments in this country are illegal so that might be a waste of time.

Anyway, I feel sorry for the organiser as he's loss a fortune, they refund all the entries and gave each player a etc £200 which I feel was very fair, some people were not happy with this, but this kind of explains why there's problem in the world when you hear there attitude.

Also like to thank Karlh for ringing me straight away when he heard, on his own evening off to let me know the money will be refund etc.

:eek: :eek: :eek: FFS:eek: :eek: :eek:
this is an astounding piece of policework, well done lads . I'd love to hear the reson fo this, obviously the PSNI talking to their southern counterparts....there must be more to this

Jackyback...good point ,below edited my criticism of unsatisfied customers

58o

wow.WP Gardai, i'll sleep sound tonight. Good to know that big chunk that comes out of my wages every month isnt going to waste.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

this is terrible, i was not to bad as i was only a 10 min drive away with no expenses incurred, i really pity the guys that travelled from the UK,Austria and Poland. One guy flew back from the Austrian festival back to UK and on to Dublin and incurred approx a 1000 expenses now there is one guy who was really ****ed off:mad:

Ollieboy

I think the organisers piss of the police in the north and they weren't pleased at them getting around the law by moving the game to the south. I think a phone call was made and they ask the game to be stop, probaly given the same reason as Bush used to stop online poker or something.

Anyway, its a very sad situation, I dont think it will effect anyother games, but I cant see GJP holding there festival there or this hotel holding a poker game again. It will also damage the image of poker in Ireland abroad as I cant imagine many players will travel here again. I guess the UK players will tell everyone when they get back and this will kill some of the action here in future.

NickyOD

OMG this is terrible. What does this mean for the Irish Open?

Sparky1808

Shocking news and a terrible day for Irish Poker in general.

Macspower

The-Rigger wrote:

I have been thinking that they haven't applied through the proper channels? This is just a guess, based on the fact its been stopped (and others go ahead all the time) and the fact that to date, the organisation has been poor in my view:

well I don't think there is such a thing as the propper channels with our current law.

If anyone votes PD............................... well u know

Ollieboy

lets not over react, I dont think this as any effect on any other games, I think this might have been a personal issues with this event or this game in general because of the situation in the north.

hotspur

Given the location did someone decline to pay the boys I wonder? Remarkable how often sterling policework can shut down non-republican sanctioned events.

Shortstack

It's too early to say whether this was due to the stuff in the North or whether it was just the Garda being over zealous. Certainly from what we legally understand, holding a poker tournament with a one off registration fee is perfectly legal under the current laws.

We have never had a problem with the Garda but now we need written confirmation from the Superintendant before we can hold the festival in this hotel. If we don't get this then we will just hold the festival somewhere else.

The show must go on and it will.

The people involved with JPC Poker have handled the situation as best they could, hats off to them for at least making a gesture and refunding more than they took in.

Shortstack

hotspur wrote:

Given the location did someone decline to pay the boys I wonder? Remarkable how often sterling policework can shut down non-republican sanctioned events.

It's 10 mins from where we hold tournaments on a regular basis and we have never paid the boys

Mind you a few of the boys do play poker at our tournies....

PokerChild

Tom et Al don't need this crap

Ollieboy

Shortstack wrote:

It's too early to say whether this was due to the stuff in the North or whether it was just the Garda being over zealous. Certainly from what we legally understand, holding a poker tournament with a one off registration fee is perfectly legal under the current laws.

We have never had a problem with the Garda but now we need written confirmation from the Superintendant before we can hold the festival in this hotel. If we don't get this then we will just hold the festival somewhere else.

The show must go on and it will.

The people involved with JPC Poker have handled the situation as best they could, hats off to them for at least making a gesture and refunding more than they took in.

totally back this up about JPC Poker, excellant work. You cant keep everyone happy but they tried and I think this would have been a excellant event with the location, setup and a big prize pool. I hope to support these guys in the future as I felt the efforts and honesty was top notch.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Ollieboy wrote:

totally back this up about JPC Poker, excellant work. You cant keep everyone happy but they tried and I think this would have been a excellant event with the location, setup and a big prize pool. I hope to support these guys in the future as I felt the efforts and honesty was top notch.

Agree Ollie this was out of JPC's control and TBH i did not envy the position they where backed into, fair play to them for throwing the extra 150 to each person to compensate in some way. I hope they can re arrange something later in the year as it would be a shame to let an event such as this pass in 07. This is probably just the PSNI trying to be cute cnuts by contacting the garda.

kincsem

Nice to see the organisers giving €150 to the players as compensation, but any decent player would thank them and refuse. It wasn't the organisers fault.

It smacks of cross-border co-operation of the worst sort. Just like with the Dame Street assualt by the Gardai on the reclaim the street demonstration. Then it was closed ranks, and nobody saw anything. This is the PSNI and the Gardai doing the same thing. The gardai are doing the PSNI a favour. I doubt the raid was legal. Saying that they could go back and return the next day with a warrant suggests that.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Marq

LuckyLloyd wrote:

conjecture.

FYP

ocallagh

NickyOD wrote:

OMG this is terrible. What does this mean for the Irish Open?

exactly, if this cannot go ahead surely the IO cannot.

DapperGent

lol @ Ireland.

kakak1

Has any reason being given as to why this event was stopped, surely they cannot stop something without at least stating what law was being broken.

To me this is a very serious issue. We have become a nanny state & are fast becoming a police state.

Someone should find out the reasons why this was stopped, it is an election year and this is the time to make a stand.

DeVore

Technically the Gardai didnt stop it, they got the hotel to do it. When they came in they isolated the organisers to a corner and would not let them be part of the discussion with the hotel. The hotel night manager was told that if he allowed the game to continue the police would return the next day with a warrant and his license to operate as a hotel would be in jeopardy.

Thus they win.

The hotel rang their lawyers who obviously said "shut it all down, dont take any risks with a multi million pound hotel project" or words to that effect.

I was with the organisers through most of the evening and they did everything they could do to move the game to a club in Dublin, or to Banbridge or to another hotel but nothing was forthcoming.

I'm working on the pictures right now and should have them up shortly.

DeV.

DeVore

Pics are up on: http://www.antesup.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=515

DeV.

dvdfan

I presume from the fact that the Northern Championships are being held down southt that its not legal to play them in the UK???? Is this the case???

BigDragon

Tom

Did you get any pics of the Garda?

What was the name of the lead Garda?

I feel like asking my TD to ask a few questions.

Dave

kakak1

BigDragon wrote:

Tom

Did you get any pics of the Garda?

What was the name of the lead Garda?

I feel like asking my TD to ask a few questions.

Dave

Someone must know on what grounds the Gardai threatened to come back the next day with a warrant. A warrant for what. Is it illegal to run a freezeout poker tournament in the ROI.

If I was involved with the Irish Open or any poker promotion, I'd want these questions answered fairly quickly.

If we can find out the reasons we can then take up the matter with our TD's and every poker player should do so.

30something

I know there are a couple of solicitors and barristers who play and I imagine if the organisers want they could consider the following legal actions arising out of this ....

1.Sue the hotel on basis of breach of contract. The organisers will be able to prove a loss as a result of the hotel's breach of contract and if they win they will recover that loss and possibly some compensation. I know the money is not the issue, but if the case is won it will set a precedent whereby the hotels will not have to bow to Garda pressure. My only concern here is whether the organisers, under Irish law, are in fact entitled to make money as a result of these tournaments. I posted on this before and this is very much a grey area.
2. Perhaps a better idea would be to sue the Garda on the grounds they have acted ultra vires their powers. In my view this is the way to go because it will effectively determine whether or not the holding of these tournaments is or is not lawful.

At some stage clarity on the law will be needed but of course there are 2 further issues that spring to mind:
a. The law is about to change therefore any court decision will be rendered irrelevant under the new law AND
b. This was a NI tourney event, arguably covered by the laws of the UK thus the Republic courts may have a jurisdiction difficulty. I'm not too worried about this aspect though.

In view of the fact that this was the first tourney targeted, it must be assumed that the raid emanated as a result of a PSNI request. This in itself, if proven, could result in serious reprucussions for the Garda. As a solicitor, if I was acting for the organisers, I would want to look into this in more detail and I would seriously consider bringing an action against the garda.

I imagine the boys at Paddy Power have got some pretty good advice on their position regarding the Irish Open. Maybe they have a comment?

DeVore

I didnt get pictures of the Gardai, they arrived at 6:45 (the game was at 8) and spoke to the hotel staff. Unfortunately I was setting up my laptop and connection in the main room at the time.

DeV.

Lplated

There are a couple of problems with this line of thinking -

30something wrote:

1.Sue the hotel on basis of breach of contract. The organisers will be able to prove a loss as a result of the hotel's breach of contract and if they win they will recover that loss and possibly some compensation. I know the money is not the issue, but if the case is won it will set a precedent whereby the hotels will not have to bow to Garda pressure. My only concern here is whether the organisers, under Irish law, are in fact entitled to make money as a result of these tournaments. I posted on this before and this is very much a grey area. ?

The problem with trying to show a loss is that arguably one should not (under the 1956 Act) have been making a profit in the first place. You cannot claim the benefit of an illegality.

30something wrote:

2. Perhaps a better idea would be to sue the Garda on the grounds they have acted ultra vires their powers. In my view this is the way to go because it will effectively determine whether or not the holding of these tournaments is or is not lawful.

This is a non-runner. You would have to show bad faith (mala fides), in addition to error. There is a very high standard of proof as against the Gardai acting in the course of their powers.

Mostly likely the State's defence to such a case would be (1) we were right in law (2) even if we were wrong, there was no bad faith (3) we didn't shut it down, the hotel did (4) can you prove what we said to the hotel? (hearsay not good enough).


Given that the Minister has set up a commission to look at this area, pushing a challenge at law would be costly and perhaps futile at this stage. There isn't much sense in establishing the law only for it to be changed following the commission's report.

The problem here is, from the threads I have read, we don't know precisely what the Gardai's objection to this was. We don't know what they said to the hotel for sure (i.e. at best we know what the hotel say was said to them). We don't know whether they were acting off their own initiative or because of a complaint from some person/body.

Worringly, this does represent a different attitude towards these type of events. Given that the IO is coming up, among other things, clarity from Garda HQ would be welcome.

30something wrote:

b. This was a NI tourney event, arguably covered by the laws of the UK thus the Republic courts may have a jurisdiction difficulty. I'm not too worried about this aspect though.

This last point is incorrect. It doesn't matter what the event was, once it was held this side of the border, our law applies. The only possible exception to this rule would be if the event were held on the grounds of an embassy.

Lplated

snip

hotspur

30something wrote:

In view of the fact that this was the first tourney targeted, it must be assumed that the raid emanated as a result of a PSNI request.

This was certainly not the first hotel poker tournament prevented from taking place in ireland. The legailty of these tournaments is a genuine debating point, and in the absence of a court ruling or specific reference to them in the prospective casino gambling legislation the Gardai will have the power to shut them down as they are currently being organised.

I recall a friend of mine who runs such tournies around the country telling me of some shut downs a while back where it was suggested to him that he needed to apply for permission to hold them in advance. Whether it was some muck savage Guard talking out of his ass or not I'm not sure.

It sucks to have such a lack of clarity but we're hardly alone in Ireland in this matter, it's happened everywhere, just look at EPT Deauville!

Attempting recompense for losses through legal action could be very -EV for GJP in my opinion in the current ambigious environment. Unless you feel like doing a Jesus-died-for-our-sins Gutshot job!

Jools Poker

there is another possibility for garda involvement here --i have had discussions with them becaue of hotel's concerns regarding the legality of hosting a tournament..apparently if you are hosting an event with a 1st prize higher than 10,000euro you must apply in writing to the to the Garda Commissioner for permission to hold the event......given the attention this particular tournament got in the north it's possible that check were done to see if all criteria had been met....either way I wouldn't panic - I don't think it will have any serious repercussions....although it's very unfortunate that players travelled from abroad for the event and will take home this sorry story with them....

a147pro

No point in suing the Hotel, even if there were a cause of action, as that would just make other hoteliers around the country refuse to hold these events.

As I understand it these events, and casinos in general, are in a kind of legal limbo. They are neither legal or illegal. I've never looked into it but you can rest assured the many people around the country who have invested in these ventures, least not the likes of Dermot Desmond, have done and have had the benefit of the best legal advice in the country prior to making their investments.

I wouldn't worry about the IO, you can rest assured if the Gardai tried anything at that Paddy Power would either use his irresistible charm and political connections to hold them off, or his bottomless pockets to mount some kind of legal challenge to any attempt to stop the event. An injunction would probably lie against the Gardai in circumstances where there was a genuine legal issue to be tried and where, on foot of the huge amount of investment, involvement of parties from around the world and imminency of the event, the balance of convenience would favour the granting of such an injunction. I imagine Paddy will have his mobile on on the day just in case....

As per smaller local games around the country, people will obviously be more wary from now on. Most local activities only take place witht he co-operation of the Gardai, this goes for nightclubs, pubs, bingo, lotteries, fundraisers etc. It will obviously pay for the organisers of poker events to keep very good relations with the local Gardai from here on in.

blackbeard

does anybody know where the garda stopped other games??