Making the Irish Times a smaller size.

Bradidup

Should the Publishers of the Irish Times think of making their paper a smaller size. Ie, like the other papers so that it would be easier to read on the bus & train etc

flogen

Bradidup wrote:

Should the Publishers of the Irish Times think of making their paper a smaller size. Ie, like the other papers so that it would be easier to read on the bus & train etc

I don't think they need to as such, at least not at the moment.

Should they? Well only if it makes economic sense which at the moment I don't think it does.

The reason the Indo became a tabloid is so people could read it on the bus/train with more ease, but the IT, being the heaviest read of the Irish dailies, would be more likely to attract the kind of reader that would sit at their desk with it... that's not to say people don't read the IT on public transport (and it's not to say it's impossible), It's just that reading it properly requires more than a quick flick through the pages or a scan over an article.

Will they? Probably, but not for another few years and not until they can be sure it won't impact on their image as the "newspaper of record" (some would argue that died a long time ago though). Part of the reason is because they don't need to change, but another aspect is the amount of money they spent on their new printing presses (it nearly ruined them a few years ago), something they need to make the most of*. I'm betting on it being an issue their next editor will have to deal with, not the current one.

* I know their presses are able to print in standard tabloid form, but the IT won't go with that format, it'd probably go with Berliner - that requires a whole new set of machinery which cost the Guardian a packet.

copacetic

flogen wrote:

* I know their presses are able to print in standard tabloid form, but the IT won't go with that format, it'd probably go with Berliner - that requires a whole new set up.

flogen, surely this fact would force them to go with std tabloid? It'd be crazy not to go with the format they can currently print?

zenith

flogen wrote:

The reason the Indo became a tabloid is so people could read it on the bus/train with more ease,

I think that, when they finally manage to kill off the broadsheet edition, you'll see that they'll have managed to reduce their need for news copy, and it'll also have effectively adjusted up their advertising rates.

It fitting on trains is entirely incidental in such decisions, IMHO.

lostexpectation

why don't they go berliner( isn't that what its called) its still looks proper

J.S. Pill

flogen wrote:

would be more likely to attract the kind of reader that would sit at their desk with it... that's not to say people don't read the IT on public transport (and it's not to say it's impossible), It's just that reading it properly requires more than a quick flick through the pages or a scan over an article.

Will they? Probably, but not for another few years and not until they can be sure it won't impact on their image as the "newspaper of record" (some would argue that died a long time ago though). .

Hmmm, thats a bit patronising on the part of the IT: 'You must devote your full attention to our paper and sit down at your desk and carefully ready each and every article!' From a purely logistical point of view I'd be in favour of cutting down the size. I likes to read the papers in my armchair and i still find full size broadsheets a bit combersome.

As regards tarnishing their image as newspaper of record, who do they think is going to steal their mantle if they cut down the size? the Examiner? I think not, newspaper of record for Cork maybe.

I think cutting it down to the size of the Guardian would be a good compromise. So long as they don't staple it...

flogen

zenith wrote:

I think that, when they finally manage to kill off the broadsheet edition, you'll see that they'll have managed to reduce their need for news copy, and it'll also have effectively adjusted up their advertising rates.

It fitting on trains is entirely incidental in such decisions, IMHO.

I disagree - I think that was central to the decision... The Indo has been very keen to combat any readership rot which might come about from the likes of the "Irish" Daily Mail coming on the scene and the reformat coincided with a change in direction to more tabloid-type content.
Making a newspaper easier to read at every opportunity (ie on a bus) was vital in keeping the newspaper competitive - I think the Indo accepted a long time ago that its rival isn't the IT, it's The Star, Mirror, Sun and even Herald.

Also, while I do believe they launched the tabloid edition with the intention of it becoming the only format in the future, I don't think the broadsheet format will go any time soon.

As it stands circulation is split almost 50/50 (54% compact, 46% broadsheet), and that's after 3 years of the tabloid version being available. This means that half of the market prefers the broadsheet version for whatever reason or at least has seen little point in making the leap to tabloid. If they were to jettison the broadsheet issue now they could find themselves losing a large portion of that 46%.
While I agree that the tabloid format allows for less text, I'd bet that their rates would drop somewhat if they could only offer adverts on the compact issue (given that ads are shown on both at the moment).

Couple this with the fact that running both formats at the same time, which doubles the work of sub editors and probably incurs additional printing costs I think this was more an attempt to boost readership (or at least contain it) than it was an attempt to get more money for a smaller edition (although they probably would benefit somewhat from less paper/printing costs and very slightly from less editorial staff once they go fully tabloid). Either that or they completely mis-judged the market and thought they could pull the broadsheet edition within a year or so, like the UK Times did.

J.S. Pill wrote:

Hmmm, thats a bit patronising on the part of the IT: 'You must devote your full attention to our paper and sit down at your desk and carefully ready each and every article!' From a purely logistical point of view I'd be in favour of cutting down the size. I likes to read the papers in my armchair and i still find full size broadsheets a bit combersome.

I don't mean it like that, that's why I said it's not like it's impossible to read it on a bus etc.
The only problem I have with reading a broadsheet is turning the page which requires a bit of space - on a bus you don't have this, but in an armchair that's a different story... you can fold it over to read it.
Apart from page turning I don't see the IT as any harder to read than any other format, and I'm not trying to say that you must devote your full attention to it, but the likes of the II is much easier to superficially read (loads of pictures, big headlines and sub-headers etc.).

As regards tarnishing their image as newspaper of record, who do they think is going to steal their mantle if they cut down the size? the Examiner? I think not, newspaper of record for Cork maybe.

No one needs to really, it doesn't matter if there's no other "newspaper of record", once the IT loses its reputation in any way it'll suffer. And I'm sure they're worried that some of that reputation could be lost if they're not seen as a "serious" newspaper - an impression many get from the size of the paper*... just like a paper with a red banner at the top will automatically read "rag" to some people, when it really shouldn't say anything about content... it's all in perception.

I think cutting it down to the size of the Guardian would be a good compromise. So long as they don't staple it...

I agree and I think they'll take that route whenever they make the choice.

copacetic wrote:

flogen, surely this fact would force them to go with std tabloid? It'd be crazy not to go with the format they can currently print?

Not really. The IT's printing facilities do a hell of a lot more than just the IT. They print The Metro, probably the Gazette group now (or will soon) and quite probably The Gloss too (not sure about this though). They also print for other publications they don't even own.
It's not like getting Berliner printers would mean they'd ditch the ones they've already spent millions on - it'd just mean the IT wouldn't use them... considering the fact that the IT Ltd. is diversifying so much lately this isn't such a strange idea, and I think that there'd be a lot of trouble if they went tabloid - partly a perception thing (tabloid = trashy to many), but also a content thing - if they went tabloid their journalists would kick up a fuss and say the newspaper is abandoning news - berliner allows for maximum content while staying accessible.

*IMO this is for a number of reasons.
Firstly the broadsheet format has traditionally been a signal of the more reputable, high-brow and serious newspapers while tabloid has been used by the more celeb/shock focused publications. To that extent the two formats have become a shorthand for these styles. That's changing now, but it hasn't changed completely yet (nor has it been helped by the apparent drop in standard by those who downsize their format).
Secondly a broadsheet by its nature can allow for more news coverage on the front page - this means that a broadsheet carries 4-5 stories where a tabloid carries 2. From that alone a reader will get a subliminal impression on which one has more news, even if the actual content past the front page tells a different story.
Finally (and keeping the first point in mind) the format of a newspaper is the very first thing you see when approaching a new title, before you even get to read the newspaper headlines or newspaper name. Basing a first impression on that (and part of it naturally will be), someone looking for news will be drawn to the bigger format. Keeping in mind point 2, a tabloid and a broadsheet that cover the same sized picture give totally different impressions - in once case the picture will dominate the cover (not a sign of focus on news), while in the other it wouldn't even take up a half or even much more than 1/4 of the page, making it a part of rather than a focus of the cover.

Dublin's Finest

Bradidup wrote:

Should the Publishers of the Irish Times think of making their paper a smaller size. Ie, like the other papers so that it would be easier to read on the bus & train etc

Whether they should or not, I doubt it will happen soon. The subs have a hard enough time pushing through the smallest of changes in there, let alone a change in size.

Dave!

I wish they'd make it smaller.... It's way too annoying trying to read it at lunch or on the bus, so I don't bother buying it anymore.

monument

"It's apparent that broadsheets now look old-fashioned and are seen as cumbersome and masculine." - Alan Rusbridger, editor the Guardian.

This applies to Ireland too. But more obvious pressure will probably build when the Indo switches totally and smaller formats become even more so the norm.

…Although such could be totally wrong and some Indo readers could switch to the IT if the Indo actually ever gets around to going totally tabloid, but such a view is overly optimistic.

flogen wrote:

I don't think they need to as such, at least not at the moment.

Should they? Well only if it makes economic sense which at the moment I don't think it does.

The moment that things make blinding economic sense is usually the time after the horse has bolted.

There’s at least two economic* arguments that I can think of for the IT to downsize…

1. Attracting commuters who are now been fed freesheets, and have the choice of two paid for conservative newspaper which style them self as qualities - both groupings in easy to read tabloid-format.

2. Attracting younger readers. Maybe not something they want to do at the moment. However with at least a perceived growing lose of importance for the paper they will need to do come convincing… “The Irish Times "We look at life, you live it"” – whether their overall contend reflects Irish life today is a question for another day, what potential new reader is going to trust them when their format (both off and online) doesn’t?...

* Which are also in the Trust's apparent main interest in spreading news.

flogen wrote:

The reason the Indo became a tabloid is so people could read it on the bus/train with more ease, but the IT, being the heaviest read of the Irish dailies, would be more likely to attract the kind of reader that would sit at their desk with it... that's not to say people don't read the IT on public transport (and it's not to say it's impossible), It's just that reading it properly requires more than a quick flick through the pages or a scan over an article.

That whole paragraph relies on the misconception that you cannot read substantial and quality news or features on public transport, you can.

Could you explain exactly why – on public transport – one could (properly) read a highly enlightening and in-depth article in the Guardian, the (London) Times, the Indy, or even in the tabloid version of the Indo etc, but somehow not the Irish Times??? (Besides it’s current bulky format)

zenith wrote:

I think that, when they finally manage to kill off the broadsheet edition, you'll see that they'll have managed to reduce their need for news copy, and it'll also have effectively adjusted up their advertising rates.

It fitting on trains is entirely incidental in such decisions, IMHO.

flogen wrote:

I disagree - I think that was central to the decision... The Indo has been very keen to combat any readership rot which might come about from the likes of the "Irish" Daily Mail coming on the scene and the reformat coincided with a change in direction to more tabloid-type content.

I’d say a bit of column a and a bit of b - one of you look to be a little too cynical and the other the opposite.

J.S. Pill wrote:

Hmmm, thats a bit patronising on the part of the IT: 'You must devote your full attention to our paper and sit down at your desk and carefully ready each and every article!'

Yes, quite so. But it suits their – at least perceived – altitude. (I’ve found them reachable and un-patronising in my few personally contacts with staff, at the highest to lower levels). I think a design change would get over much of such perceived attitudes.

flogen wrote:

Making a newspaper easier to read at every opportunity (ie on a bus) was vital in keeping the newspaper competitive

I’m at odds to see why this doesn’t apply to the IT.

flogen wrote:

I think the Indo accepted a long time ago that its rival isn't the IT, it's The Star, Mirror, Sun and even Herald.

I think the Indo group accepted long, long ago that there’s a market for all of their titles, and the only real rivals are those not owned by the Indo.

flogen wrote:

As it stands circulation is split almost 50/50 (54% compact, 46% broadsheet), and that's after 3 years of the tabloid version being available. This means that half of the market prefers the broadsheet version for whatever reason or at least has seen little point in making the leap to tabloid. If they were to jettison the broadsheet issue now they could find themselves losing a large portion of that 46%.

Unless you have qualitative research saying that half of the readers* prefer the broadsheet I’m not inclined to believe such.

If the circulation split is 54%/46% - what’s the production split, is it possibly similar? What would you call a large proportion of 46%? Do the UK examples of broadsheets turned tabloids back up your theory?

* Readership is at the end of the day more important then circulation

flogen wrote:

While I agree that the tabloid format allows for less text, I'd bet that their rates would drop somewhat if they could only offer adverts on the compact issue (given that ads are shown on both at the moment).

What exactly backs up this thinking?

flogen wrote:

Either that or they completely mis-judged the market and thought they could pull the broadsheet edition within a year or so, like the UK Times did.

Or the Indo is, like the rest of the Irish media, just slow to change compared to the UK media???

On a somewhat related note, I’ll take this moment to direct everyone to this interesting point on the Guardian’s recent move to “all journalists work[ing] for the digital platform”…

“The interesting thing about the Guardian is that it’s owned by a Trust rather than being a commercial company. Some people mistakenly think that this ownership structure makes the paper more cosy and resistant to change than a more straightforwardly commercial outfit. In fact the opposite it true: the Guardian has moved faster and more aggressive to embrace change than any other British publication” - http://memex.naughtons.org/archives/2007/03/15/3794

flogen wrote:

I don't mean it like that, that's why I said it's not like it's impossible to read it on a bus etc.
The only problem I have with reading a broadsheet is turning the page which requires a bit of space - on a bus you don't have this, but in an armchair that's a different story... you can fold it over to read it…

Apart from page turning I don't see the IT as any harder to read than any other format,

…But just harder, and often next to impossible or highly inconvenient to page turn on buses, trains, trams, aeroplanes, coaches etc.

flogen wrote:

Firstly the broadsheet format has traditionally been a signal of the more reputable, high-brow and serious newspapers while tabloid has been used by the more celeb/shock focused publications. To that extent the two formats have become a shorthand for these styles. That's changing now, but it hasn't changed completely yet (nor has it been helped by the apparent drop in standard by those who downsize their format).

Not just in Dublin where the daily freesheet aren’t just seen as trash, but the tabloid format has now lost much of its negative connotations around the country. For example of what I’ve seen of the newspaper bellowing to the Advertiser group, they have produced quality weekly local freesheets well able to rival their broadsheets for general news and court reporting.

Although in saying that, I agree with you that a size other then tabloid would be best for the Times. Maybe not even the same size as the ‘Guardgen’.

flogen wrote:

Secondly a broadsheet by its nature can allow for more news coverage on the front page - this means that a broadsheet carries 4-5 stories where a tabloid carries 2. From that alone a reader will get a subliminal impression on which one has more news, even if the actual content past the front page tells a different story.

Take for example the day old Guardian and Irish Times I have on front of me, fold them over as they are in shops, and if you were to exclude the ‘NewsDigest’ in the Times… now what’s left in news terms two main headlines. In each has a main two-line header and a right side bar with a four-line header – it’s close to strange how similar they are!

flogen wrote:

Finally (and keeping the first point in mind) the format of a newspaper is the very first thing you see when approaching a new title, before you even get to read the newspaper headlines or newspaper name. Basing a first impression on that (and part of it naturally will be), someone looking for news will be drawn to the bigger format.

The IT I’m looking at has far too much text, not just back text but a mixture of sizes and colours – it’s far to busy of a front page.

Meanwhile the Guardian is also colourful, but clear – the lead news headline grabs my focus (even if the cartoon is excluded from the IT, the daily NewsDigest and far too busy banner of what’s inside detracts from what is suppose to be important: the news)

flogen wrote:

in once case the picture will dominate the cover (not a sign of focus on news),

Funny you say that because the IT I’m looking at has a cartoon plastered in prime place, a feature which has recurred a number of times in the last year.

(Typical I have some time un-pressured and alone and still choice to spent in on boards talking about of all things newspapers!)

DaveMcG wrote:

I wish they'd make it smaller.... It's way too annoying trying to read it at lunch or on the bus, so I don't bother buying it anymore.

I’ve a similar personal experience on days when I’m too busy and will be too tired when I get home… I neglect to buy it but would be more likely to if I could easily read it on the bus or tram.

Here's some links on the Guardian's change over...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/article/080905/rushbridger_why_i_did

[edits: mostly formating or fixing wording]

philologos

The Irish Independent's move was brilliant and I think it should be applied to all broadsheet papers. I think if the Times did that it would be positive in terms of sales as well. Seems to be a win win situation.

Bradidup

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Jakkass wrote:

The Irish Independent's move was brilliant and I think it should be applied to all broadsheet papers. I think if the Times did that it would be positive in terms of sales as well. Seems to be a win win situation.

Agreed........The early morning commuter hand outs, the Irish Independent and the British gutter media are all winning over customers, The Irish Times should "come out of the dark ages of broadsheet snobbery" and follow suit. After all they are all the same size when on line!!!

Dave!

If they made it smaller, is there people out there who would STOP buying it...??? I would think they can only gain from it

WindSock

Just make the damned thing smaller so there's less fumbling about. Surely it's the content thats important and not the image one is subjected to of looking like a tabloid reader. If some pillock is going to avoid the reading the news because of this, then so be it. May they enjoy staring at the wall.

flogen

monument wrote:

The moment that things make blinding economic sense is usually the time after the horse has bolted.

Not really - the IT could easily (and should) be doing regular market research on this kind of thing. Once they can be sure their audience don't mind and they can ensure the extent of their coverage isn't hindered they could make the move, or begin to.

There’s at least two economic* arguments that I can think of for the IT to downsize…

1. Attracting commuters who are now been fed freesheets, and have the choice of two paid for conservative newspaper which style them self as qualities - both groupings in easy to read tabloid-format.

The arrival of the freesheets was never going to do any damage to the IT or even the Indo - the tabloids were always the ones likely to suffer and they seem to have largely avoided any crisis. The same applies for the tabloid Indo, it's not something that has so far damaged the IT, it was always more likely to hit the Herald, Star, Mirror, Sun and upcoming Mail.

2. Attracting younger readers. Maybe not something they want to do at the moment. However with at least a perceived growing lose of importance for the paper they will need to do come convincing… “The Irish Times "We look at life, you live it"” – whether their overall contend reflects Irish life today is a question for another day, what potential new reader is going to trust them when their format (both off and online) doesn’t?...

I'm sure the IT would like to bring young readers on board, but I don't think producing the exact same style of publication on a smaller page will do anything to encourage this. Changes in focus or production style will, but potentially at a cost to its existing readership (like if they were to try and pander to an apathetic youth).

That whole paragraph relies on the misconception that you cannot read substantial and quality news or features on public transport, you can.

Could you explain exactly why – on public transport – one could (properly) read a highly enlightening and in-depth article in the Guardian, the (London) Times, the Indy, or even in the tabloid version of the Indo etc, but somehow not the Irish Times??? (Besides it’s current bulky format)

Well my main point was in terms of format, but I think it's easier to read a light and/or short piece on public transport than an in-depth article. I never said you can't, but I know I'd prefer to sit down in comfort to read a quality newspaper properly - sitting on a bus means a brief window of time (for my bus journey it might be, say, 40 minutes), constant interruption with people getting into and out of the seat next to you and for the last few minutes of the journey a distraction to ensure you don't miss your stop.

In those circumstances I find it far easier to just skim than get too invested into an article - also, and this is just a personal thing, I tend to get a really nasty headache if I read newspaper print for too long while in transit.

I’m at odds to see why this doesn’t apply to the IT.

Because the IT wasn't/isn't being attacked from all sides by its rivals. The lower end of the market has seen a lot of activity in recent years while the higher end has seen the complete opposite - the Examiner is the last newspaper I can think of to try and move into the IT's market, and even then they aimed for the II (which was in a higher readership market at the time).

I think the Indo group accepted long, long ago that there’s a market for all of their titles, and the only real rivals are those not owned by the Indo.

The group maybe, but I'm sure the Irish Independent doesn't mind chipping into the Herald's market and vice versa - I'd bet the group doesn't disapprove of this kind of friendly competition either.

In the past the higher end of the newspaper market was where the audience was and so that's where the battle for market share took place. Now the majority of newspaper readership takes place at a lower point in the market, so the battle has moved. The II has decided to follow the money, the IT has (for the most part) made itself into a niche newspaper.

Unless you have qualitative research saying that half of the readers* prefer the broadsheet I’m not inclined to believe such.


If the circulation split is 54%/46% - what’s the production split, is it possibly similar?

Possibly, but that works under the assumption that all newspapers printed are sold and that the Indo group has made an overt decision to keep production split near the 50/50 mark. If so, they surely made this decision based on audience research, because there's no way they're doing this for economic reasons.

What would you call a large proportion of 46%? Do the UK examples of broadsheets turned tabloids back up your theory?

Well in these circumstances I think even a quarter of that 46% would be a large proportion - in that case you'd be talking about the bones of 20,000 readers.

Will have to get back to you on the UK examples of broadsheet to tabloid switch - having trouble finding circulation and readership figures for 2003-present (although I'd venture the guess that the speed with which the UK Times ditched its broadsheet meant they got a far better response to the tabloid version than the Indo has had here).

What exactly backs up this thinking?

Well the fact that they're offering less space, of course. I know a full page on a tabloid is still a full page ad, but I don't think it would have the same impact as a full page on a broadsheet.

Or the Indo is, like the rest of the Irish media, just slow to change compared to the UK media???

I'd agree if the Indo hadn't ventured into the tabloid market years ago - there's no way in hell that IN&M are taking their time making the full switch at the cost of huge amounts of money just because the Irish market is a bit slower - they're a business, full stop. In fact, the Indo being a shrewd business is the exact reason why they've not made serious inroads into the net with their paper here until now - there's no need to so why put money into something enough people aren't asking for? Last time the group jumped the gun with the net, they ended up with unison.

…But just harder, and often next to impossible or highly inconvenient to page turn on buses, trains, trams, aeroplanes, coaches etc.

Yes, but obviously not hard enough to put people off buying the paper - I'd say things might be different if there was a tabloid rival that could offer the same kind of news coverage, but there isn't so the IT can take their time.

Not just in Dublin where the daily freesheet aren’t just seen as trash,

They aren't? Tell that to the people having to clean up the streets/buses afterwards.

but the tabloid format has now lost much of its negative connotations around the country.

As I said, this is changing, but I don't think its changed enough for the IT to make a blind leap.

For example of what I’ve seen of the newspaper bellowing to the Advertiser group, they have produced quality weekly local freesheets well able to rival their broadsheets for general news and court reporting.

Comparing the local market to the national is a whole different kettle of fish - tabloid locals have been out-reporting nationals on local issues for donkey's years, nothing new there.

The fact is that the majority of the Irish population don't have issue with tabloids, they read them... as the IT is a niche, however, the same logic can't necessarily be compared to its readership.

Although in saying that, I agree with you that a size other then tabloid would be best for the Times. Maybe not even the same size as the ‘Guardgen’.

Yes - I just think tabloid doesn't allow for the same kind of news coverage the IT tends to have - it also limits the amount of space you can give to advertisers.

The IT I’m looking at has far too much text, not just back text but a mixture of sizes and colours – it’s far to busy of a front page.

Meanwhile the Guardian is also colourful, but clear – the lead news headline grabs my focus (even if the cartoon is excluded from the IT, the daily NewsDigest and far too busy banner of what’s inside detracts from what is suppose to be important: the news)

Well that's not a format issue, that's a design issue.
The IT could be the size of a house and the Guardian the size of a hardback book and it wouldn't make one more or less colourful than the other.

Funny you say that because the IT I’m looking at has a cartoon plastered in prime place, a feature which has recurred a number of times in the last year.

(Typical I have some time un-pressured and alone and still choice to spent in on boards talking about of all things newspapers!)

Going by the standard Guardian cover I have in mind it has a pretty big picture on the front too - but when you open it up in both cases the main picture takes up far less of a % of the page than the main picture on the tabloid Indo or any other tabloid newspaper (although many redtops will have a dominant headline rather than picture).

lostexpectation

the irish examiner too should go berliner, /says the guy that tried to read it at his computer filled desk today...

Bradidup

lostexpectation wrote:

the irish examiner too should go berliner, /says the guy that tried to read it at his computer filled desk today...

I thought that paper was only read in Cork. By the way is a "Breliner" just a fancy word for a Tabloid?, they nearly look tha same.

leeroybrown

Bradidup wrote:

I thought that paper was only read in Cork. By the way is a "Breliner" just a fancy word for a Tabloid?, they nearly look tha same.

The 'Berliner' format is taller and marginally wider than a standard tabloid. I think the main reason for using it is that it is equally convenient but the extra height apparently gives a lot more flexibility in design and layout. If you look at the page layout of a standard compact (tabloid sized) edition of a newspaper and a Berliner you'll generally see a difference in the amount of content that can be cleanly put on each page.

Bradidup

Cheers, Im learning something new every day!!! I didnt expect this topic to get so detailed!!

blue4ever

Bradidup wrote:

I thought that paper was only read in Cork. By the way is a "Breliner" just a fancy word for a Tabloid?, they nearly look tha same.

Breliner - its a size between tab and Broadsheet

the international group that sets paper size - met in Berlin in the 40's and allowed that size to be recognised by the group.

Times press isnt set up for that size and thus wont be able to print it.

lostexpectation

blue4ever wrote:

Breliner - its a size between tab and Broadsheet

the international group that sets paper size - met in Berlin in the 40's and allowed that size to be recognised by the group.

Times press isnt set up for that size and thus wont be able to print it.

that was silly of them!

monument

flogen wrote:

Not really - the IT could easily (and should) be doing regular market research on this kind of thing. Once they can be sure their audience don't mind and they can ensure the extent of their coverage isn't hindered they could make the move, or begin to.

They could and should does not mean they are. And even if they are doing regular market research, it does not mean they are asking questions linked to this discussion.

One way or another, I think my point about the horse bolting is correct – when there are overtly established trend it’s usually too late to capitalise as your rivals have gained, in this case obtained the readers you could have.

flogen wrote:

The arrival of the freesheets was never going to do any damage to the IT or even the Indo - the tabloids were always the ones likely to suffer and they seem to have largely avoided any crisis. The same applies for the tabloid Indo, it's not something that has so far damaged the IT, it was always more likely to hit the Herald, Star, Mirror, Sun and upcoming Mail.

Maybe my point was not too clear there, but I also partly take issue with what you’re saying…

First off I said the market has the choice of the freesheets and “two paid for conservative newspaper which style them self as qualities”… my point was in relation to readers now getting use to smaller sizes.

And it’s not just on public transport a smaller format comes in handy. Above a poster talks of difficulty reading a broadsheet (the Examiner, which is slightly smaller then the IT) at his desk, and just last week I was witness to the rather funny sight of a young lawyer trying to turn the pages of the Irish Times in the middle of a district court.

flogen wrote:

I'm sure the IT would like to bring young readers on board, but I don't think producing the exact same style of publication on a smaller page will do anything to encourage this. Changes in focus or production style will, but potentially at a cost to its existing readership (like if they were to try and pander to an apathetic youth).

There is a potential to lose readers, but it’s very unlikely – what newspaper are they going to switch to?

I think there’s a far greater risk of losing readers to the smaller formats and to lose potential readers to potential to such formats… I feel the need to quote Alan Rusbridger again “It's apparent that broadsheets now look old-fashioned and are seen as cumbersome and masculine."

On the masculine point alone, there’s the Irish Daily Mail who actively targets a female readership, and in Ireland the Mail doesn’t have as strong political connotations as in does in the UK.

flogen wrote:

Well my main point was in terms of format, but I think it's easier to read a light and/or short piece on public transport than an in-depth article. I never said you can't, but I know I'd prefer to sit down in comfort to read a quality newspaper properly - sitting on a bus means a brief window of time (for my bus journey it might be, say, 40 minutes), constant interruption with people getting into and out of the seat next to you and for the last few minutes of the journey a distraction to ensure you don't miss your stop.

In those circumstances I find it far easier to just skim than get too invested into an article - also, and this is just a personal thing, I tend to get a really nasty headache if I read newspaper print for too long while in transit.

That may be your personal preference, but you have to look at these things in at least a partly detached manner. One of your key words (‘properly’) is quite subjective.

Even if it is 40 minutes, is it 40 staring out the window, or reading a rival’s handy sized paid-for newspaper, or even reading a freesheet and thinking “this isn’t too bad, it’s got news that is of interest to me and it’s free”.

And anyways, smaller formats are not just easer to read on bus, but also in the living rooms or in waiting rooms, on intercity trains and aeroplanes, at desks in work or in canteens, cafes etc etc etc

flogen wrote:

Because the IT wasn't/isn't being attacked from all sides by its rivals. The lower end of the market has seen a lot of activity in recent years while the higher end has seen the complete opposite - the Examiner is the last newspaper I can think of to try and move into the IT's market, and even then they aimed for the II (which was in a higher readership market at the time).

Yes, indeed. As Finfacts.ie points out on the latest JNRS results…

“The Irish Times was the only daily not to lose readers, remaining steady at 336,000, while the Irish Independent lost a whopping 40,000 readers. All of the tabloids, most predominantly the UK titles with Irish editions suffered in terms of both readers and circulation”.

http://www.finfacts.ie/finfactsblog/2007/03/irish-newspaper-readership-2007.html

But the Irish Times are not immune to a drop in circulation or readership. And no matter what, the paper should be looking at growth not just remaining stable.

flogen wrote:

The group maybe, but I'm sure the Irish Independent doesn't mind chipping into the Herald's market and vice versa - I'd bet the group doesn't disapprove of this kind of friendly competition either.

They’re more concerned with actual competitors.

flogen wrote:

In the past the higher end of the newspaper market was where the audience was and so that's where the battle for market share took place. Now the majority of newspaper readership takes place at a lower point in the market, so the battle has moved. The II has decided to follow the money, the IT has (for the most part) made itself into a niche newspaper.

According to my quick calculations, there are 368,000 AB readers of paid for national daily newspapers, the vast majority – 255,00 – is split between the Indo and the IT.

The Irish Times has 40%, or 147,000, of the over all AB daily paid-for readership. While the Indo has 30% or 108,000.

In my books that’s not room for complacency on the Times behalf.

flogen wrote:

Possibly, but that works under the assumption that all newspapers printed are sold and that the Indo group has made an overt decision to keep production split near the 50/50 mark. If so, they surely made this decision based on audience research, because there's no way they're doing this for economic reasons.

My presumption was only to question the far greater presumption you made about readers preferring the broadsheet Indo and saying a large percentage of the 46% would stop reading if the Indo went totally tabloid.

Unless you have something to back it up at the time you made the above comment it is also a presumption that current stance of producing two formats is based on audience research. There are many other possible prevailing factors – in fighting, the general slow movement of the Irish media, the Indo group saying they are for market forces but propping up newspapers just to be anticompetitive in case there’s a small chance a rival might gain (for example the Tribune here and the London Indo).

flogen wrote:

Well the fact that they're offering less space, of course. I know a full page on a tabloid is still a full page ad, but I don't think it would have the same impact as a full page on a broadsheet.

I’m looking at the Indo’s rate card on medialive.ie and can’t seen any difference between the price for ads in the two formats… or the appropriate question would be - did the prices drop when 50 percent of the circulation became tabloid?

flogen wrote:

I'd agree if the Indo hadn't ventured into the tabloid market years ago - there's no way in hell that IN&M are taking their time making the full switch at the cost of huge amounts of money just because the Irish market is a bit slower - they're a business, full stop. In fact, the Indo being a shrewd business is the exact reason why they've not made serious inroads into the net with their paper here until now - there's no need to so why put money into something enough people aren't asking for? Last time the group jumped the gun with the net, they ended up with unison.

Explain the propping up of the London Indo then… They’re a slowing moving, in it for the long term, and anticompetitive business. They have more then enough money and diverse assets to be complacent/careful/whatever when they want to be.

flogen wrote:

Yes, but obviously not hard enough to put people off buying the paper - I'd say things might be different if there was a tabloid rival that could offer the same kind of news coverage, but there isn't so the IT can take their time.

Maybe that wasn’t too obviously to the UK newspapers. As for rivals, there are enough to stop them from growing.

flogen wrote:

They aren't? Tell that to the people having to clean up the streets/buses afterwards.

Unless you’re trying to be funny, I was talking in content terms and anyway all newspaper end up as trash, or maybe in collections in attics???

flogen wrote:

Comparing the local market to the national is a whole different kettle of fish - tabloid locals have been out-reporting nationals on local issues for donkey's years, nothing new there.

The fact is that the majority of the Irish population don't have issue with tabloids, they read them... as the IT is a niche, however, the same logic can't necessarily be compared to its readership.

I don’t know, could you possibly be suggesting that there is a large amount of Irish Times readers that are so much up their own behinds that they couldn’t get over the a change to tabloid (or even Berliner, or another size)?

flogen wrote:

Well that's not a format issue, that's a design issue.
The IT could be the size of a house and the Guardian the size of a hardback book and it wouldn't make one more or less colourful than the other.

It is a format and design issue, the two are interlinked.

I think you’re focusing on the word ‘colour’ which wasn’t my point at all. I was replying to what you said “Basing a first impression on that (and part of it naturally will be), someone looking for news will be drawn to the bigger format”. My point was that the Guardian, even in a smaller format, generally has the same amount of news on the front-page as the IT, less clutter. A bigger format with more clutter isn’t going to attract readers.