Did St Patrick bring Christianity or Roman Catholicism?

Bradidup

I am curious to know did St Patrick bring Christianity or Roman Catholicism into the country? Any scholars out there?

brianthebard

Ha good question. Well we know for sure that there was an established Irish Church that had several differences to the Roman church until the 1600s (example:priests married and had families who carried on the priestly tradition). Also in the early days (say between 600 and 800 AD-I studied this last year so its a bit hazy) there was a different way of establishing when Easter fell in Ireland, although this was sorted out at a council held in Northumbria afaik, although I'm open to correction. At the same time however, the Irish Catholic Church always looked to Rome for leadership. It definitely wasn't as different as say the Russian or Greek Othodox churches. I think that at the time that St. Patrick arrived in Ireland it was more likely that different cultures would have picked up different versions of the churches teaching (eg. his possible use of the shamrock to explain the trinity) that tied in with what had previously been practised in that culture. It wasn't until the counter reformation and even later, in the 1800s, that there is a standardisation of Catholicism. So to answer the question....a little of both??

Jackie laughlin

St. Patrick long predated the divisions in Christianity. OK, OK, I realise there were always divisions but that's not what the question here was about.

csk

As Jackie laughlin pointed out St. Patrick was here long before the divisions of christianity. But isn't there evidnce he was not even the first, Iserminus and Palladius are believed to have arrived before him or at least in and around the same time. And at least one of them was supopoosed to have the official sanction of the pope I think.

europerson

I vote for Christianity, for the same reasons as above really.

brianthebard

csk wrote:

As Jackie laughlin pointed out St. Patrick was here long before the divisions of christianity. But isn't there evidnce he was not even the first, Iserminus and Palladius are believed to have arrived before him or at least in and around the same time. And at least one of them was supopoosed to have the official sanction of the pope I think.

Its well known he wasn't the first I don't think that is in question. Palladius came first but didn't do so good. Not that I believe Patrick converted the whole island, but he was much more sucessful. While its true that he came before divisions of christianity ito protestantism, but the Greek orthodox church and the gnostics had existed for hundreds of years before christianity came to Ireland. So it is a valid question. Do you or Jackie refute what I said about the early Irish Church?

mdebets

I think, he brought neither (if he even existed), because it was already in the country, when he arrived.

brianthebard wrote:

Its well known he wasn't the first I don't think that is in question. Palladius came first but didn't do so good.

That's not quite true. Palladius wasn't the first Christian in Ireland. He was sent "to the Irish, believing in Christ". You must therefore assume that there have been Christians in Ireland before him

brianthebard wrote:

While its true that he came before divisions of christianity ito protestantism, but the Greek orthodox church and the gnostics had existed for hundreds of years before christianity came to Ireland.

The Great Schism that split the Western (Roman) and Eastern (Orthodox) church only happened in 1054 AD.

brianthebard wrote:

Also in the early days (say between 600 and 800 AD-I studied this last year so its a bit hazy) there was a different way of establishing when Easter fell in Ireland, although this was sorted out at a council held in Northumbria afaik, although I'm open to correction.

The synod in Whitby in Northumbria was in 664 AD.

Bradidup

Cheers, Ive learned something new from this thred.......... I

watchman007

217-4 THYATIREAN.CHURCH.AGE - CHURCH.AGE.BOOK CPT.6
Though the messenger to the Thyatirean Age was Saint Columba, I want to dwell a little on the life of Saint Patrick as an example to us and also to give the lie to Rome's claim that Saint Patrick was any more one of her than was Joan of Arc. Patrick was born to the sister of Saint Martin in the little town of Bonavern on the banks of the river Clyde.
One day while playing on the shoreline with his two sisters, pirates approached and kidnapped all three. Where the sisters went, no one knows, but Patrick (his name was Succat) was sold to a chieftain in Northern Ireland. His duty was to tend to the swine. To do this he trained dogs. So well trained were his dogs that many people came from far and near to buy them. In his loneliness he turned to God and was saved.
Then came the urgent desire to escape and return home to his parents. He formed a plan that put his ability as a trainer to great use. He taught the dogs to lie on him and cover his body carefully and not move until commanded. Thus one day when his owner sold several dogs, Patrick commanded the dogs, except the leader of the pack, to get into the boat. The leader of the pack to which he then gave a secret signal ran off and refused to come aboard. While the master and the buyer attempted to get the dog, Patrick got into the boat and signaled the dogs to cover him. Then with a whistle he brought the leader of the pack into the boat and on top of him. Since Patrick was nowhere to be seen the buyer put up sail and moved out to sea.
After making sure that the captain was too far out to turn back, Patrick gave another signal to the dogs which caused them to riot. Then he came forth and told the captain that unless he would put him ashore at his home he would command the dogs to keep rioting, and he would take over the ship.
However, the captain was a Christian, and when he heard the boy's story he gladly put him ashore at his home. There Patrick went to Bible school and returned to Ireland where by the Word and the power of God in many signs and wonders he won thousands to the Lord. At no time did he ever go to Rome nor at any time was he commissioned by Rome. The truth of the matter is that when Rome finally gained a foothold on the island and when they saw the time was opportune, they killed over 100,000 Christians who had over the years grown out of the original group that had come to the Lord under Saint Patrick.
[ from: Exposition of the Seven Church Ages at: http://www.branham.org/messagesearch.htm ]

brianthebard

mdebets wrote:

I think, he brought neither (if he even existed), because it was already in the country, when he arrived.


That's not quite true. Palladius wasn't the first Christian in Ireland. He was sent "to the Irish, believing in Christ". You must therefore assume that there have been Christians in Ireland before him

Palladius came first, before Patrick. I didn't say there were no christians before that.

The Great Schism that split the Western (Roman) and Eastern (Orthodox) church only happened in 1054 AD.

Fair enough, but the gnostics still existed before that.



[quoteThe synod in Whitby in Northumbria was in 664 AD.[/QUOTE]Thank you.

Shutuplaura

St Malachy brought the church into line with rome in the 12th century. Before then it was only nominally under the popes control. He also established the first cistercian abbey in ireland around they time - at Mellifont. The cistercians were a reformning order so he was keen to have them over. Ther was a synod mid century where the church in ireland was finally brought in line with Rome by being given a diosecean structure. The pope later asked Henry ii (or he offered) to nip over and assert control over this new structure with the papal bull Laudabiliter.

In spite of all this there were what could politely called 'irregularities' in the irish churchfor a hell of a long time afterwards.

Seloth

As stated above,Neither but also Both.

He wasent the first but from his teachings of the Roman Catholic religion it formed into a Mixture of Catholic and Celtic Traditions and Customs.

lld

Article about St Patricks day on the Irish Nihlism Society's website.

"Every year the parades get bigger, more disposable festive novelties are rolled off corporate production lines and more republican tricoleurs are bought and hung up everywhere and anywhere."

"Whilst it might be a sea of smiley faces and shamrocks in the dizzy drunken haze of the St Patricks day celebrations, back in reality things are not so rosey (or emerald). "

Read more

Dontico

Gnostics I think were around before christianity. there is a big difference between the two.

Capt'n Midnight

Can't remember where I saw it but by looking at the Latin he used in the records his grammer was better than it should have been, so he must have come earlier to Ireland than previously thought. In a large slave raid rather than one on many minor ones.

here is a link that suggests a kidnapping in the year 367
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/03/08_patrick.shtml

more on the slave raid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Conspiracy