Quantity Surveyor and Direct labour qs

c07

hi all,

i'm new to here, but am glad to see a forum dedicated to self-build cos I'm going to have loads of qs about it. Basically, we got planning permission approx 2 months ago to build in kildare.
As soon as we got planning we went looking for builder quotes (waited till then cos we had had a few headaches with re-designing house for planning dept after FI).
Anyway, we have sent out for 6 quotes. Got 2 back so far and the quotes are quite high, in my opinion. One for 265k and another for 255k.
Our spec (at high level) is as follows:
H shaped bungalow, 2350sqft, EPS Bison treatment system, black uPVC windows, underfloor heating, oil-fired central heating.
Nothing over complicated basically.

Even though we still have 4 more quotes to get back, I'm not holding my breath that they'll be much better...

So, here is the deal:
We are now seriously considering direct labour. We are selling our house (just accepted offer recently) which leaves us with a healthy profit of approx 130k to start build with. We will rent local to the new build, so we can keep an eye on build. We both work full time (but I have option to work from home some days, so could pop down to site on breaks to check up, etc).

Two queries arise from this:
1. We need to get a quantity surveyor to draw up bill of quantities for us. Can anyone recommend one in the Blanchardstown, Swords, Drogheda area? Is the QS supposed to supply high level cost estimates for each part of job as well as list of materials and quantity? Will he go through the processes we need to follow to get build up and going and give us a schedule of what we need to do and when? On average how much would they cost?

2. One concern I have is around the organisation of the tradesmen and when to know when to request them for going on site to complete their part of build. As we would be managing ourselves, are we going to come up against issues with unavailability of tradesmen when due on site, or do direct labour tradesmen tend to be ok for availability as they are only being used for one part of build (as opposed to availability for building contractor for start to finish of build!)?

Sorry for long message, would really appreciate any feedback....

Cheers,
Caroline.

Naux

I'm in a similar situation to yourself. I'm building a 2465sqft 2 storey. I haven't gotten any builder quotes back yet but I expect them to come in so high that I'll be forced to go direct labour. 265k to build a bungalow seems excessive though

On the positive side for selfbuilders there seems to be a slow down in the amount of work out there for the trades, so we might see a bit of price competition in the near future...................we wish:eek:

Wobs

Hi Caroline,

Direct labour is a big job to take on, you would really need to know a bit about building or know someone who does and is willing to help out. Trades people will defo let you down and the project will not be finished by your first probably very optimistic finish date.

You could look at getting an engineer or Architect to co-ordinate the build and trades for you. You should be able to save money by going direct labour but it will take alot of time,effort and heartache, but is rewarding in the end.

By the way an oil boiler is by far the most expensive way of running UFH and not reccomened. If i was you I would look at an alternative way to run it.

c07

Hi guys,
thanks for the feedback.
Naux - here's hoping your right about quotes coming down. Cos ideally i don't want the headaches of direct labour - and the length of process, come to think about it! Will keep you posted about the other quotes that come back.

Wobs, I have an idea how difficult direct labour is as my brother in law has just completed his direct labour build (that lasted 2 years). He will be a great source of information, is only half an hour from our site and is very willing to give us advice on the do's and dont's. At the same time, he can't manage build, so a lot of this is going to be a learning process for us aswell.
I didn't know about oil heating being inefficient for ufh, what other options would you recommend, taking into account that we're not considering wood pellet for the moment.

thanks again....

bauderline

Gas in conjunction with a gas condensing boiler is a good way to go or geotherm if you can afford it.

wideband

Hi Caroline,
In my opion the prices you have received todate are reasonable, one would think that receiving two quotes within E10k is a fair indication of actual build cost. Have you not set a cut-off date for return of tender?, the other 4 tenderers may come in cheaper but when will you receive them. Your particular project sounds complicated to me tba, with out going into detail its a ''H'' shape for starters.

We are now seriously considering direct labour. We are selling our house (just accepted offer recently) which leaves us with a healthy profit of approx 130k to start build with. We will rent local to the new build, so we can keep an eye on build. We both work full time (but I have option to work from home some days, so could pop down to site on breaks to check up, etc).

You have a healthy profit, you both work full time and you will pop down to site on breaks to check-up My advise is get a builder.

1. Is the QS supposed to supply high level cost estimates for each part of job as well as list of materials and quantity?

You are quite correct, but will require an experience Q.S. The fee you pay will increase as the time involve increases.

Will he go through the processes we need to follow to get build up and going and give us a schedule of what we need to do and when?

This is a project managers job not a Q.S., but some firms do offer this additional service

On average how much would they cost?

Typical house 1% to 3% of build cost. This should get you a fairly detailed BoQ with rates, quantities etc, also some post contract services.

2. are we going to come up against issues with unavailability of tradesmen when due on site, or do direct labour tradesmen tend to be ok for availability as they are only being used for one part of build (as opposed to availability for building contractor for start to finish of build!)?

As you are building a one off house you are at the mercy of their regular employers. They have no choice.

Best of luck

c07

thanks again for all ur feedback. We have received 2 more quotes back - lowest being 242k for a basic structure build, with no garage, sanitary ware, kitchen, etc. We want a high spec finish.
As stated in my last post, my brother-in-law has completed his direct labour build. This weekend gone, I had a good chat with him regarding the costings of materials and labour, do's and don'ts of the direct labour option.
Basically, for the basic structure of the house and the build, we estimated the cost of direct labour to come in at approx 80-100k less than employing a builder. That's one serious amount of money, and I would rather that in my back pocket than a builders. No offence to any builders.
So, using those figures, we could finish our house off to the high standard we want, and have a fabulous house for approx 200k.
One of the aims of this project is to reduce our mortgage as much as possible, and this is definitely the way to do it.
I know a lot of you may think I am mad, but when I put my mind to something, it happens. I am well aware that this will be a tough process and stressful. But, what will keep me going is knowing that any mistakes in the process will be mine, but also any successes will be mine also.
Imagine managing the build of your own home, to have it finished, stand back and say.... I managed that....
that's a huge thing. And with the amount of money to be saved aswell, no financial worries either!
I'm afraid, against some of the advice below, direct labour is going to be the route we take.... BRING IT ON!

galwaytt

don't want to rain on your parade, and if you do manage a 2350 sq ft house for 200k, to a high spec - I salute you.

Builders finish - no kitchen/bathroom to speak off, is currently Eur90.00 per sq foot. Add finishes, reasonable drive (chips, no macadam), and you're at Eur125 sq foot. Top spec will cost you Eur150 sq ft.

I don't think the quotes you've got are outragsous, just my 0.02.....
I say all this having done direct labour on my first house...........let's just say, 'never again' - as proof, my new house being finished at the mo, is by a contractor.......albeit one whom I've kept tight reins on, btw...........bare finish cost me Eur 90.27 per sq foot, incl VAT

davidoco

When you say direct labour you have to think about how you see that. For example

Foundation needs digging, insulation, radon barrier and sump, filling, floating, marking out, filling and compacting, concrete, some services prelaid, footings, steel and supervision by council and engineer.

If you find a local person willing to do the foundation as a contract job he will need to liaise with the plumber and block layer and do all the work for you. He will factor that into the price and perhaps you may not save much on that.

My brother in the middle of a build and like yourself lives and works locally but I imagine he is going to get a warning letter in work about running out to the site every couple of hours. In any event he did the foundation himself with one experienced guy. They had to get the steel, cut it to fit, mark out the site, hire a jcb with driver, organise the engineer and council to supervise the pour, order the concrete, pour the concrete. Then order the blocks, sand, cement and mixer for the footings, once the footings were laid order the filling and another jcb to put in the centre, then hire a compactor to level the filling, order the insulation and radon barrier, get the plumber out to fit and pipes he needed, fit the insulation and radon barrier, order the concrete, pour it and float it. I imagine he saved up to €5000 on that but at the risk of losing his job and putting in the hours himself.

Direct labour is really for the hands on DIY (men usually) who are willing to get out there and do some work themselves, deal with builder providers and actually know what the actually components that go into a house are called and how they work.

Salmon

Folks,

I think you are a little too hard on the poster. It is possible to finish a direct labour build even if you havent much experience of building yourself. Its all about managing the thing correctly. My advice to you is to get a good engineer or architect to supervise the build and only hire people on the recommendation of happy customers. It is so important to have good tradesmen, dont let price be the only factor you consider when choosing a tradesman. Listen to a lot of different opinions on everything you decide to do and ask plenty of questions about things. Boards and askaboutmoney are great resources so use them too and read plenty of self build magazines. At the end of the day it can be done and you dont need to be a builder yourself, you just need and interest and an ability to keep a few different balls in the air at any one time. Its not gonna be easy but it is very do-able and very rewarding!

c07

well guys, i hear what you're saying, but i'm determined that I can do it.
U may think it's going to be more difficult for me because I'm a woman, but believe me, I'm a force to be reckoned with - ask my hubby
If things go wrong, which I'm sure they will, i'll just add that to my list of things I've learned... It may end up going over budget but nowhere near the cost of employing a builder to manage the whole thing.
Whatever happens, we will still save money. And I am actually excited about this project. The quotes from builders worked out at an average of EUR113 per sqft. And that's just for the build of structure, electrical, plumbing, plastering. This did not include a garage (which I was quoted 30k excl VAT - and believe me, it's just a basic garage!). Also, does not include sanitary ware, kitchen, treatment system installation, heating option.
So, all in all, even if I get the basic finish done myself for EUR90 per sqft, as galwaytt stated standard finish should be approx, I'm already making a saving of 51k... that's one sizeable chunk of money that could be used for finishes/building garage, etc....

harto

Work out your budget carefully and get as much detail as you can before you start. Direct labour can be done with a firm resolve, thick skin and some deep end learning. You need to be giving about 10 to 15 hrs a week realistically to the project. Most of it will be on site, some weeks may be less , some more.
You will make mistakes which will cost you.
Others will make mistakes which will cost you.
Subbies will let you down.
The thing is how you manage all this and stay on top of the project.
Learn to spot poor blockwork. Pay attention to detail, especially with insulation being installed, planning services early, timing deliveries to site ...
The longer the project goes on you are probably paying two mortgages or rent and mortgage. This is a cost and you want to minimise this, and not have the project drag on. When subbies are busy you will drop to the bottom of their priority list, especially if they are working for bigger contractors. Set a reasonable timeline and be prepared to fire when necessary. Don't pay up front for work not done. Triple check all window sizes and opening when ordering with rep or supplier. Waiting for replacements when something is wrong could hold up another job.

From the example below, averaged on some projects we worked on over the last year you can see that costs can vary dramatically especially in the finishing stages.

Based on our average house size 2450ft2

Infrastructure & Fees:
ESB - 1800
Water (well or local authority) - 3500
Waste treatment - 4000
Insurance - 3000
20 ft Container (for storing materials & equip) - 1200
Scaffolding - 4-5000
Security fencing 500
Generator - 300
Plant & tool hire - 2000
Skips - 1200
Teleporter - 500
Engineer/Architect stage visits - 1500
Surveyor (marking out) - 400
Bill of quantities - 400
Total - 25'300

Groundworks & Foundations:
You could have huge variation in costs here, depending on amount of excavation and muck away to be done.

Site clearance, strip top soil, excavate to required level, muck away transport,
dumping charges, JCB/Himac hire, rock breaker, trenching etc - €3k - 25k
Foundation work - concrete - 3000
Foundation work - labour - 1000
Blockwork - €2-€4000
Blocks - €2000
Cement - 250
Hardcore fill - 700
Floor insulation - 2000
Radon Barrier - 2000
Concrete - slab - €2-4000
Labour - 500
Total - 15.5k - 20.5k

Structure:
Timberframe or Block
- Timberframe : 40000 - 60000
- Block : Walls 20k - 25k , Roof 20-30k
Total 40-60k

Labour:
Roofing - 5k-6k
General labour - 4k
Dry lining - 4k
Insulation - 2k
Plastering - 12k - 20k
Carpentry - €5k
Tiling - €5k
Electrial €6k - €14k
Plumbing €18k (at least with UFH)
Flooring - €5k
Painting & dec - €3-5k
Landscaping - €10k
Total €80k - €100k

Materials:
Slates 8k - 15k
Gutters, Fascia & Soffit €4k
Sand €1200
Cills - €1500
Misc builders supplies €5k
Insulation €3-5k
External Doors and Windows - €10k - €40k
Internal Doors €2k - €10k
Architrave & skirting €1k - €3k
Ironmongery 500 - 1500
Tiles/Wood floors - €8 -€15k
Lights €2k
Bathrooms fittings €3k - €20k
Kitchen €5k - €50k
Total €55 - €173k


AndyH
http://www.helpmebuildandrenovate.com

newbuild06

Fair play to you co7 for taking on the job of direct labour. It is very streeful and demanding on your time evey spare minute is nearly taken up with it. We are currently in the process of doing it at the moment. i dont work in the building industry, my father was a builder and used to bring me working with him when i was younger and when i travelled around oz i did labouring for brickies for 6 months so i have some minimal experience.
i am lucky in a way that i have alot of family in the building trade and their advice and help has been invaluable.
We are currently at the stage of getting our roof slated and i have picked up so many new skills in the last few months.
The father in law and brother in laws are involved in ground works so together with them and a few cousins we did all the work on the foundations. the total cost for our foundations for house and garage was 17k house is 234sqm and garage is 79sqm.
Main frame is costing around 75k (inc plumbing and electrics) and roof is costing about 30k.(thats for house and garage)
You will defo need to go to site every other day if not every day to make sure everything is ok and check how the work is coming along. At present i am out on site every weekend doing jobs from clean up to putting expanding metal on our dormers and many other jobs.
My main advice so far would be to get at least 2 quotes per job and ask them can you view any previous jobs they have done.
Get all quotes in writing and get written down exactly what they will be doing and get them to leave each job as they found the site, i didn t get this agreement with my carpenter and i am cleaning up after him the whole time. We have this arrangement with our brickies and plasterer.
When your floors are in spread some sand on them it makes it easier to scrape up the cement that the brickies drop on it, it will save alot of elbow grease.
Sign up with at least 2 building suppliers and then get quotes off both and play them off each other this will save you a good few euros in the long run even if its only 50 or 100 euros each time it will all add up in the end.
Be firm with time frames from each trade as one depends on the other to be done before they arrive, orignally we wanted one trade to be finished and then the next one in the next day but this is impossible give a few weeks between each trade as this gives you a bit of time to play with for delays and weather.
anyway i am tired of writing now so good luck with the build and dont be afraid to pm me if you have any queries or questions.

Builderwoman!

Caroline, you can do it...it is very very possible...I've just done it and I'm a woman!!!!! (Hence the handle...I was asking such "blonde" questions here in the beginning that I knew that it would give me away anyway!!)

Have to agree with others though that it takes A LOT of time, patience, work - physical and mental etc etc. Yes you do have a fab sense of achievement at the end...and a bit more grey hair for your hairdresser to get rid of!!! Yes you do save money but I have to agree with others that the prices you have in aren't bad at all. Most builders in Co Kildare are charging between 120-160&vat per sq yard. We sacraficed a lot of family time to get our house done (what am I saying...we're still decorating and finishing outside!!!!!!) and we did save money but when you add in loss of earnings, travel, a few mistakes as someone else pointed out you it all adds up too. I too loved the challenge of it and knew nothing about building at the start but managed it....there is a process to it and all builds pretty much follow that process so if you talk to lots here and your bro in law you'll get the hang of things very quickly. After that agree with last poster when he says shop around big time for building supplies....we saved a lot this way...however word of warning...when you are supplying materials the trades waste a lot!!

Not sure where in Kildare you are but can give you a few tips if you need them. I know you mentioned something else about QS in Swords etc...I would recommend for convenience deal with people around your own site as it saves money and time in the long run. However for finishes...kitchens, bathrooms, tiles, furniture, carpets etc....get as far away from Dublin as you can as then you will save money big time. We save thousands on tiles, grout and adhesive, 800 on our fire place, 4k on our kitchen by travelling 30-60 miles away!

Keep posting here and you will get great advice. Don't be afraid to ask for any help or advice...the more you ask the more you learn!