DTT Trial - Apology to "Watty"

BowWow

Folks,
for a long time I've considered "Watty" to be paranoid with his constant refrain that the current DTT trial is political. However I'm not so sure now that he's wrong.........
Based on an another poster saying he was selected for receiving a test STB as he worked for a company that was supporting the Dept of Communications in the trial, I sent two emails formally asking to be part of the trial. One I sent to the Dept. and the other I sent to the company I believed the afore mentioned poster works for.
I received a reply from the Dept saying - nothing to do with them, contact the company.
This morning I received a reply from the company saying they would be delighted to have me on board, as I was interested and the list of "trialists" was still in preparation. Please would I send them my name, address, household details etc. Address was very important as they needed to see if I was in the coverage area. I sent this info by return. Immeaditily I got back a mail saying that my area couldn't receive the signal!(Would part of the purpose of a trial not be to establish that?). I responded that I was currently looking at the FTA stations on my computer using a DTT USB stick. Again they replied I could not receive the signal, but they will keep me on file.
As I type this I'm looking at Three Rock out the window and I have DTT on my TV and on the computer..........Perhaps they just don't like me......
Anyway, Watty, I now accept you could be right, please accept my sincere apology for ever doubting you.:D

Krusty_Clown

Hi BowWow, Devil's advocate, but you may be outside of the area in which they are running the trial. Can you share the contact details with us? Perhaps someone else may be more fortunate.

watty

No worries. I don't mind being wrong either. I'm just anxious that people don't go out an waste money buying gear for something possibly ephemeral and not intended for general consumption.

Actually I'd love to be completely wrong about Government planning and thinking on Broadband and Digital TV.

SPDUB

Krusty_Clown wrote:

Hi BowWow, Devil's advocate, but you may be outside of the area in which they are running the trial.

Dublin 4 :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

rogue-entity

watty wrote:

Actually I'd love to be completely wrong about Government planning and thinking on Broadband and Digital TV.

So would I, but I am far too much of a cynic, and I didnt doubt you when you said the trial was political, it just made sense to me. I mean, we have a better chance of Sky selling legit CAMs for use in DreamBoxes (for watching Sky) then we have of the government rolling out a good, well planned, FTA DTT service with HD channels by 2010

fta keith

who is the market research company for the Irish DTT pilot project

Bulmers

Read this thread with interest, Watty, if you dont mind me asking, what are your opinions on the DTT rollout with regard being political?

Do you think it's not going to go anywhere after this trial?..just curious...thanks

watty

Mwehaahhaaha!



We'll do SOMETHING, SOMETIME. Actually since the trial started there may have been a chink of reality seeping in.

Originally an Private company was to buy the DTT Network licence (possibly buy RTENL too...) In 7 years this is not happening. So there is talk of a State owned DTT network run by RTENL, (which is fairly much what the pre-1998 idea was) this is at least beliveble.

I've not heard any firm dates for anything.

Bulmers

thanks Watty, reading this correctly then, the current one run by DCMR and BT is basically going to be a non runner in future and RTENL will take over and run a seperate one, so to speak?

Foggy43

This trial or whatever you want to call it is taking place in service area which is ideal. Ok you will have tall buildings in Dublin. They have picked an area that can possibly receive the UK's Freeview and also is densly populated. May have something to do with it, I don't know.
The switch off starts here in the UK on October 17, 2007 in Cumbria to be completed nationwide by 2012.

I can see problems when it comes to Mount Leinster, Maghera, Mullaghanish and Truskmore service areas. There are loads off relays in these areas to fill in pretty hilly terrain. It will mean all these relays being converted to digital. That will take time and money. Alot of those relays still do not carry TV3 and it is down to cost.
Who will pay for all this conversion should it happen? I suppose it is easy in the UK with 16 times as many TV license holders and alot of media companies around.

Anyone any idea how much it would cost to convert a single transmitter to digital. Just say the 4 terrestrial channels.

I suppose we will have to listen to the Feel and Fall political party broadcasts for anymore updates.

Just in case anyone is interested http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6453087.stm

watty

Bulmers wrote:

thanks Watty, reading this correctly then, the current one run by DCMR and BT is basically going to be a non runner in future and RTENL will take over and run a seperate one, so to speak?

The real trial was in 1999 or some such date. There is nothing to be trialled. It's today just a matter of doing it. The O2 DVB-h is a real trial, almost. More of user reaction than technology.

DTT works. We are going to get it some day, Analogue will be turned off someday, thus there is almost no technology nor user aspect to trial on regular DTT. On DVB-h there may be no commercial case for it. The current DVB-h trial on O2 using Nokia handsets thus answers some real questions.

The regular DTT trial can't give any answers different from what we know already over 7 years for MPEG2 and over 2 years ago for MPEG4

watty

Mount Leinster, Maghera, Mullaghanish and Truskmore: Only made sense for Band I and someone with no money to put up a real network

Stupid sites.

For Sheep and Goats, badly chosen They are already next to useless for Band III and especially for UHF.

Yes RTE /TV3/TG4 need far more relays/ transmitters, even today to give "normal" 99% coverage. Too many people have fringe reception and only 80% TV3 coverage.

Antenna

watty wrote:

Mount Leinster, Maghera, Mullaghanish and Truskmore: Only made sense for Band I and someone with no money to put up a real network

Stupid sites.

For Sheep and Goats, badly chosen They are already next to useless for Band III and especially for UHF.

In the early 60s when RTE TV started, trying to provide a national UHF network with dozens and dozens of sites would have been just too expensive. The technology at the time would have meant every site would have had to have been manned etc to be reliable. The costs would have been enormous

Such high mountain sites would have been necessary anyway to provide a reliable microwave link network (satellite distribution of course was a non-runner back then)

The original RTE sites mentioned were used by Newstalk Radio when launched nationwide last year, even though no one was forcing them to use any of RTE's sites.

The amateurs who put 2m/70cms repeaters on those places (Mullaghanish, Mt Leinster etc) I reckon don't consider them stupid sites:)

what_car

BowWow wrote:

Folks,
for a long time I've considered "Watty" to be paranoid with his constant refrain that the current DTT trial is political. However I'm not so sure now that he's wrong.........
Based on an another poster saying he was selected for receiving a test STB as he worked for a company that was supporting the Dept of Communications in the trial, I sent two emails formally asking to be part of the trial. One I sent to the Dept. and the other I sent to the company I believed the afore mentioned poster works for.
I received a reply from the Dept saying - nothing to do with them, contact the company.
This morning I received a reply from the company saying they would be delighted to have me on board, as I was interested and the list of "trialists" was still in preparation. Please would I send them my name, address, household details etc. Address was very important as they needed to see if I was in the coverage area. I sent this info by return. Immeaditily I got back a mail saying that my area couldn't receive the signal!(Would part of the purpose of a trial not be to establish that?). I responded that I was currently looking at the FTA stations on my computer using a DTT USB stick. Again they replied I could not receive the signal, but they will keep me on file.
As I type this I'm looking at Three Rock out the window and I have DTT on my TV and on the computer..........Perhaps they just don't like me......
Anyway, Watty, I now accept you could be right, please accept my sincere apology for ever doubting you.:D

hi can you pm me with the contact details of the company? i need to contact to be part of the DTT trial as i would like to try the DTT trial...thanks

watty

Antenna wrote:

The amateurs who put 2m/70cms repeaters on those places (Mullaghanish, Mt Leinster etc) I reckon don't consider them stupid sites:)

Yes, not bad for driving across Ireland (using Ridge of Capard R2 from Dublin to Roscrea today). Indeed the original logic was correct. But they are "stupid sites" now for population coverage, which is why since that Carn Hill. Clermont Carn, Woodcock Hill, Spur Hill and ThreeRock all UHF have been added. Except that Woodcock is not enough west on ridge (Radar site in the way) and is too low a power.

Galway needs a better repeater / site too. I'd upgrade some repeaters and add about 20 more smaller ones.

JHMEG

Been a bit late reading this thread, but after reading it I'm a bit perplexed. All of what has been said makes sense, but there are a few unanswered questions...

1. Why didn't RTE proceed with a launch after the original trial?
2. How is the current trial political?

These two questions might be related.

3. Unrelated to the original topic, but there are a load of unanswered questions about the DVB-H trial, esp in relation to the fact there have Comreg have not licensed anyone to transmit DVB-H, and the timing of a DVB-H trial by RTE with still no DVB-T service in place.

But back to questions 1 & 2. I have always been of the belief that RTE is run for the benefit of the employees, and that providing a public service is not their number 1 priority. Therefore they messed with DVB-T, but it was just easier to proceed with analog. ie RTE couldn't be arsed.

Which is where the answer to question #2 comes in: does the govt realise that RTE are essentially a bunch of wasters, and like Luas, NCT etc, a DVB-T service would be better off being run by a commercial company, and not the public service. I like to think that this is the answer.

The irony about all this, and possibly the only political aspect, is that Fianna Fail "The Republican Party" is selecting foreign companies to run services of national importance. British Telecom in this case.

My 2c worth, and I'm open to differing opinions!

watty

JHMEG wrote:

Been a bit late reading this thread, but after reading it I'm a bit perplexed. All of what has been said makes sense, but there are a few unanswered questions...

1. Why didn't RTE proceed with a launch after the original trial?

Originally the plan was to fund RTE to roll out DTT.

But then it was decided (for various reasons that may have seemed good) that the Licence should be auctioned. Only one company ("It's TV") put in an application. The ITV Digital operation collapsed with large loses (combination of too few pay channels to compete with Cable/Sky, too much spent on sport and huge piracy, due to possibly a certain Satellite operator paying to have Canal+ sat encryption cracked).

"It's TV" did not have a business plan that stood upto scrutiny, that bid failed in 2001, I think, and we have been "waiting" ever since for someone to buy the licence. RTE was "told" to separate the Networks/Transmitters to a separate company back in maybe 2000. This is RTENL, which is currently an integral part of RTE.

Meanwhile some countries in EU have turned off analogue entirely or in large cities, and a final date suggested by EU. Suddenly the "Fish & Chip" department realise they must show EU something is happening. They put out to tender (i.e. they PAY someone to do it, instead of charging someone as per original concept) and BT won the tender quite fair & square to setup the "network"/Transmitters & servers to run a "Trial" at two sites. A separate Tender was made for content (no profit allowed).

Which bit of this is technical and which Political?

It would seem that at some future stage the State will fund and own a DTT roll out (probably done by RTENL). Possibly if anyone would buy the Licence the State may have to sell it.

Given dominance of Sky, UPC and BBC/ITV now FTA, it is hard to see who would buy the DTT (not Cheap to pay for all those Transmitters, feeds and extra missing relays).

Don't forget Sky don't own any Digiboxs or Satellites. They have income but almost no physical assets.

NTL went bust. Chorus nearly so. The new owner UPC is having to spend a fortune to upgrade the cable.

Everyone wants Triple or Quad play (Hence Virgin/Telewest/NTL in UK and Sky Broadbadn in UK), i.e. UPC upgrading cable for phone & broadband. Even the MMDS may get a Broadband / Phone Wireless add on.

There is no way for a DTT operator to offer broadband & Phone. Only now with MPEG4 is there enough channels, but delt the "cruel" blow of now ITV &BBC all FTA nationwide on Satellite for same price as new DTT box and aerial (almost everyone needs new aerial for DTT).

DTT has serious problems in Ireland and none of them technical. A Launch before 2000 was critical.

Scottish paddy

Maybe the solution to funding DTT will be the auctioning of the old analogue frequencies as is proposed in the UK. That after all is why the British government is so keen to push “Freeview” in order to get their hands on the old frequencies. How many billons did they get from the 3G phone auction? I also remember RTÉ proposing wireless broadband over DTT, if the system is not carrying dozens of TV channels then surely this is possible?

watty

The DVB-RCT is I think dead. It wasn't Broadband, only sounded high bandwith, but since used a the return channel for all 50,000 people on a mast, only fast enough for "interactive" red dot type stuff instead of phone.

The UK proposals are unrealistic. Though an extra 150MHz of mobile Broad band spectrum would be nice, it would hand BSkyB dominance of Broadcast TV.

JHMEG

Sounds to me like the proper way to do it would be to have RTENL build the DTT network, then prise RTE and RTENL apart (and sell RTE 2 off). Any company, including RTE TV, wishing to use the network then pays RTENL, which would be called something else. This company would be expected to break even.

The govt has a pretty poor history in the recent past when it comes to awarding state contracts to commercial companies. NTR, Deloitte & Touche and Shell come to mind. All have been in the media for the wrong reasons.

watty

yes , Though RTE2 is a separate issue. No need to sell it.

The plan WAS to sell DTT licence and RTENL, but after 7 years no-one is interested. The State then needs to Buy RTENL and rename it until they find a buyer.

JHMEG

Mmm. RTENL could be run along the lines of Network Rail in the UK... While RTENL should be seperated from RTE, I think it should be kept in state hands. Eircom is a good example of why state assets should not be sold...

watty

You mean badly maintained, underfunded and congested?

Sponge Bob

it is politcal as I clearely explained earlier this year , this piece of **** borads searching tool defies me

watty

Welcome sponge personage.

I think regi is VERY busy right now but will fix the searching when he less very busy

Sponge Bob

if he could even restore the discussion archive from tape , space permitting, then google would work as a search medium.

but I did explain clearly why the whole trial thing is political and not technological.

once the election is over then the ghost of Tom Gildea will no longer haunt FF and we may have a more competent minister overseeing comms

L1011

...such as one that actually uses email, rather than writing you a letter and having a flunky scan it in and send you a PDF!

Sponge Bob

Does Dempsey have nice handwriting then

L1011

Well, it appears he can actually use Word (or a typewriter!), as it is typed, but you'd expect the minister for Communications to be able to use email, surely?

watty

Didn't the PDF come by email? An image in an PDF is perhaps a copy of a document in Civil service think.

musa

I am receiving full signal strength in the Mournes,but no pictures,This is with several TV receivers,and freeview boxes,are we talking Mpeg 4? or will the wee men not pass through the annalouge mast head amp?

watty

Only the 4 basic channels are unencrypted. They aren't always working either.

The RF is essentially Analogue for Digital or Analogue TV, on satellite, cable or aerial.

watty

I'm locking this so that discussion goes in a more appropriate thread. Also it's a little embarrassing.