Lets talk about s3x baby, lets talk about you and me

fuzzbox

2/4 6-max
Villain is a good regular.
There is a total moron at the table who has donated left right and centre (he is -1200 over 50 hands)

I have 800, villain has 2000

Preflop
I open utg with KK to 14, muppet folds (boo), villain calls, all others fold

Flop (32)
Jc 5c 5d
I check (?), villain bets 30, I call (?)

Turn (92)
Kd
I lead 70 (?), villain raises to 180, I think and call (?)

River (440)
8c
I think for a time and finally bet 175 leaving 370 behind.

What do we like and what do we not like?

opr

I think you played the hand well.

Is it really bad to shove the river here ? It looks very like he has JJ ?

Opr

ianmc38

I'd prefer to bet the flop. Whenever a low pair comes on board like that, I'm always trying to get as much money in the pot as possible. You're both 200+ BBs deep and you should be looking for a line that will get as many of those into the pot as possible.

My decision to check or bet the flop would be based on his flop play. What's his fold to flop bet numbers, does he try to float etc etc? In a way, it's a good check as most players will never expect you to check a hand such as KK on a flushing board so you're disguising the strength of it nicely.

I like your play on the turn and I like your river bet size as it looks like a weak blocker thats inviting a raise and with 370 behind there's still folding equity there in the villains eyes and its a great scare card for him to bluff.

MacStacked

Why do you not lead the flop for 30?
I like the flat call of the raise on the turn but I might check the river..

Lazare

Horrible river. Have you the Kc? If so, with that line, might he put you on AcKc? How has he seen you play your draws?

I just hope he has JJ

RasTa

River doesn't matter, we have the second nuts. Everything is fine apart from the flop play. I lead out instead of check calling.

Lazare

RasTa wrote:

River doesn't matter, we have the second nuts. Everything is fine apart from the flop play. I lead out instead of check calling.

River kills action if he puts us on club draw.

robinlacey

i can't think of a reason to check the flop,i do end up check calling some flops with hands with showdown value but your hand is too strong,i would usually bet the flop and check call the turn.

i don't bother playing a totally balanced game,nor do i think its necessary,but at the same time against good regulars you have to at least pay lip service to the idea,checking the flop here heads up is taking the piss a little bit from that perspective,and devalues your c-bets hugely.

as played i would bet more on the river,looks like he has a strong hand when he raises the turn,if he has fives so be it,you want to get value from A5 and JJ,even KJ or AA.

opr

Lazare wrote:

River kills action if he puts us on club draw.

He is a good regular , what do you think he has that the flush coming kills ? KJ is all i can think of.

Opr

charlesanto

robinlacey wrote:

as played i would bet more on the river,looks like he has a strong hand when he raises the turn,if he has fives so be it,you want to get value from A5 and JJ,even KJ or AA.

Nah, one of 3 ... AcQc or 55 or JJ
OR does a good player call with the others

opr

charlesanto wrote:

Nah, one of 3 ... AcQc or 55 or JJ
OR does a good player call with the others

When stacks are this deep its generally ok to call with some of the holdings Robin mentions.

Opr

charlesanto

opr wrote:

When stacks are this deep its generally ok to call with some of the holdings Robin mentions.

Opr

On the river, squandering 2 full buy-ins ?

Lazare

Originally posted by opr
He is a good regular , what do you think he has that the flush coming kills ? KJ is all i can think of.

Opr

Good point. AA x3, KJ x1, and AK x3. Still pretty narrow

robinlacey

i'm not saying he should push,but 175 is too small a bet.

its a funny hand,fuzzbox's holding is definitely underrepresented and his line is the kind of strange one that might induce a heroic call since he will probably be pretty confused.

i don't think its ideal but i don't think the play up to the river is ideal either,but given that we're here now and we have to bet we may as well bet more than 175,he's not going to bluff over us when the draw hits so we may as well just make a decent bet and hope he has enough to call...

opr

charlesanto wrote:

On the river, squandering 2 full buy-ins ?

What would have happened if the turn had been a blank ?

Opr

opr

robinlacey wrote:

its a funny hand,fuzzbox's holding is definitely underrepresented and his line is the kind of strange one that might induce a heroic call since he will probably be pretty confused.
...

Is this not good enough reason to mix it up now and again and check this flop against a good regular some of the time ?

Opr

charlesanto

opr wrote:

What would have happened if the turn had been a blank ?

Opr

opr wrote:

Is this not good enough reason to mix it up now and again and check this flop against a good regular some of the time ?Opr

You've answered yourself here !

When the turn hit, fuzz luckboxed a monster !

What would you be saying if...

fuzz wrote:

2/4 6-max
Villain is a good regular.
I have 800, villain has 2000
Preflop
I open utg with KK to 14, villain calls, all others fold

Flop (32)
Jc 5c 5d
I check (?), villain bets 30, I call (?)

Turn (92)
3d
I lead 70 (?), villain raises to 180, I think and ..... (?)

Or a possible and probable outcome as played ...

fuzz wrote:

.....
River (440)
8c
I think for a time and finally bet 175 leaving 370 behind.
Villian pushes, I call & villian shows 55

Lazare

charlesanto wrote:

Or a possible and probable outcome as played ...

So you reckon it's bad to call a push with the second nuts, because it's probable the villain is pushing 55?

LOL.


You don't think it more probable he'll push 88, JJ, even AcKc, AcQc, (or any nut flush), or A5?

opr

Charles this is completly OT and i don't want to ruin this thread because i think it s very interesting hand given how it was played. We don't play these hands to flop one pair and when we do its played very carefully. We play them to flop monsters.

I have no idea what you are trying to say in your last post. If i had A5 in this hand and the K does not come we take alot of money from the villian.

Opr

opr

charlesanto wrote:

You've answered yourself here !

When the turn hit, fuzz luckboxed a monster !

What would you be saying if...

In this case if we had bet the flop we are probably behind if when we c/c the turn he r/r our lead on the turn. So it would have made very little difference.

I am saying that betting is bad i would bet this flop 90% of the time. I am just not opposed to mixing it up and checking some of the time. We all seem to play poker the same way these day. Good hand = bet like mad and get the money in the pot. I agree with this most of the time but against good players i think sometimes you have to work harder to get thier money in the pot.

Opr

MrPillowTalk

fuzzbox wrote:

2/4 6-max
Villain is a good regular.
There is a total moron at the table who has donated left right and centre (he is -1200 over 50 hands)

I have 800, villain has 2000

Preflop
I open utg with KK to 14, muppet folds (boo), villain calls, all others fold

Flop (32)
Jc 5c 5d
I check (?), villain bets 30, I call (?)

Turn (92)
Kd
I lead 70 (?), villain raises to 180, I think and call (?)

River (440)
8c
I think for a time and finally bet 175 leaving 370 behind.

What do we like and what do we not like?

I dont like not leading the flop, I would bet the flop 100% of the time.

Given that you checked then the turn and river are fine, if it were a non club river I would check on the end, but betting your ammount is fine.

I like to bet on the end as it looks like you made a flush but there is no deception in not betting as on that board any hand that doesnt beat a flush checks behind, whereas if he has an underhouse he will get all in anyway so betting doesnt lose any value and you may get a loose call from trips

Goodluck2me

MrPillowTalk wrote:

Given that you checked then the turn and river are fine, if it were a non club river I would check on the end, but betting your ammount is fine.

to represent a missed flush? i dont like this line as you lose value. i think we should bet the river either way, as it might look like a missed flush steal.

MrPillowTalk

goodluck2me wrote:

to represent a missed flush? i dont like this line as you lose value. i think we should bet the river either way, as it might look like a missed flush steal.

This is very player dependant, against an aggresive guy I might lead at a non club river, but my problem with that play is that it looks like a big hand as much as it does a missed draw.

Goodluck2me

MrPillowTalk wrote:

This is very player dependant, against an aggresive guy I might lead at a non club river, but my problem with that play is that it looks like a big hand as much as it does a missed draw.

Yes but by betting at least average hands like 5x will call us, but may not bet themselves. Also it give hands like JJ and 88 the chance to push over us. a wider range will push over us than will call a crai imo. for that reason i prefer a bet.

Hectorjelly

I think checking the flop is fine, if you are playing a regular you are going to be in this situation tonnes of time so it pays to do both, and importantly check calling KK here covers the times you check when you missed. The 55 on the board means we are less likely to get beaten.

If you come to this spot and you have been C=betting 100% of the time or close to it then betting is much better.

fuzzbox

MrPillowTalk wrote:

I like to bet on the end as it looks like you made a flush but there is no deception in not betting as on that board any hand that doesnt beat a flush checks behind, whereas if he has an underhouse he will get all in anyway so betting doesnt lose any value and you may get a loose call from trips

Agreed, I planned to check if the club did not fall.
Since the club fell, I thought a weak bet might be a good 2-way bet, getting some value from weaker hands, and maybe inducing a daring bluff.

fuzzbox

Results:
Villain dwelled up for ages and finally called with 6c7c.

I most certainly bet the flop very often with lots of holdings, but the table dynamic was a little screwed because villain was sitting in the seat to the left of the mark. The mark had folded, so now its fairly clear that I have a strong hand, because the mark is a total moron, so there is no need to raise with weak stuff. He calls in position, so we are 2 buyins deep and he has position on me, and hes good.

I really dont think there is any problem with check/calling here some % of the time. If he was passive, then sure, bombs away, but he's good, so he can put on some serious pressure (as he tried to do in the hand).

So how about the river bet ... does it look like "please call I'm huge" or does it look "please dont raise, Im weak?".

I was going for "please dont raise". Did I bet too much for that?