You are now paying more rake

RoundTower

If you play on an iPoker skin which recently migrated from the Tribeca network, chances are you are now paying more rake. Examples are Paddy Power, VC, Blue Square and Green Joker Poker.

Previously, in NL and PL games Tribeca raked every pot at 25c per $5 in the pot up to a maximum of $3. iPoker now rakes (as far as I can tell) 5c per $1 in the pot. This leads to a significant difference. Pots under $60 are now raked between $0 and $0.20 more, with an average of $.10 more per hand.

This mainly affects players at low levels, since they play more pots under $60, and since they were paying less to begin with but are hit with just as big an increase.

Just how much more rake are you paying? This is tough to figure out, but I will explain below how to calculate this using PokerTracker. Once we have some feedback from several players at different levels, you can predict how much more you pay at the levels you play.

RoundTower

First, some proof for the skeptics who weren't convinced that Tribeca raked in 25c increments, and iPoker does not. Especially for some doubters who really, really should know better:

Some hands from two well respected posters:

Flipper wrote:

Roanoke 10475444-45770 Omaha Pot Limit $2/$4
[Jan 25 19:06:42] : Hand Start.
[Jan 25 19:06:42] : Seat 1 : amoramir has $100
[Jan 25 19:06:42] : Seat 2 : an die has $168.50
[Jan 25 19:06:42] : Seat 3 : omahaya has $36
[Jan 25 19:06:42] : Seat 5 : RU$TY has $370
[Jan 25 19:06:42] : Seat 6 : Oklajohnny has $85.50
[Jan 25 19:06:42] : RU$TY is the dealer.
[Jan 25 19:06:43] : Oklajohnny posted small blind.
[Jan 25 19:06:43] : amoramir posted big blind.
[Jan 25 19:06:43] : Game [45770] started with 5 players.
[Jan 25 19:06:43] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jan 25 19:06:43] : Seat 5 : RU$TY has Qh 4c 7s Ts
[Jan 25 19:06:49] : an die called $4 and raised $10
[Jan 25 19:06:51] : omahaya called $14
[Jan 25 19:06:51] : RU$TY folded.
[Jan 25 19:06:54] : Oklajohnny called $12
[Jan 25 19:06:58] : amoramir called $10
[Jan 25 19:06:59] : Dealing flop.
[Jan 25 19:06:59] : Board cards [Th 9d Qs]
[Jan 25 19:07:14] : Oklajohnny has 10 seconds to respond.
[Jan 25 19:07:18] : Oklajohnny checked.
[Jan 25 19:07:23] : amoramir checked.
[Jan 25 19:07:26] : an die bet $56
[Jan 25 19:07:30] : omahaya folded.
[Jan 25 19:07:44] : Oklajohnny has 10 seconds to respond.
[Jan 25 19:07:47] : Oklajohnny folded.
[Jan 25 19:07:52] : amoramir folded.
[Jan 25 19:07:53] : an die wins $53.25 as the last player standing
[Jan 25 19:07:56] : Hand is over.

sikes wrote:

GAME #498597677: Texas Hold'em NL $0.50/$1.00 2007-03-10 08:04:16
Table Quispamsis
Seat 1: mymoney84 ($193.17 in chips)
Seat 3: completefish ($151.15 in chips)
Seat 5: ggsoon ($232.35 in chips)
Seat 6: FishyShark ($63.09 in chips)
Seat 8: limbosongs ($100.00 in chips) DEALER
Seat 10: Maureeeece ($103.88 in chips)
Maureeeece: Post SB $0.50
mymoney84: Post BB $1.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to limbosongs [C3 H7]
Dealt to Maureeeece [D3 S5]
completefish: Fold
ggsoon: Fold
FishyShark: Fold
limbosongs: Fold
Maureeeece: Call $0.50
mymoney84: Check
*** FLOP *** [H3 DA D5]
Maureeeece: Bet $2.00
mymoney84: Fold
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.90 Rake $0.10
Maureeeece: wins $3.90

It's a little bit hard to follow, but in the first hand the pot is $56 and is raked at $2.75 so the winner gets $53.25 back. In the new iPoker he will only get back $53.20. The second pot is $2 and is raked at $0.10 so the winner gets back $1.90. On Tribeca he would have got $4.

edited to put in the bold, iPoker calculates pot size badly

robinlacey

i could be wrong,but i remember reading somewhere that pokertracker has a generic way of calculating rake that doesn't take into account differences between sites in how pots are raked,so it may not be useful for calculating how much rake you have actually payed.

Shortstack

Whilst the way rake is taken has changed it does not necessarily mean you are paying more than other comparable sites. For example Pokerstars rakes in a very similar way with similar increments.

The rake is still 5% capped at $3 per pot but the rake is rounded down in 5c increments rather than 25c increments.

Also to note that the higher stakes players pay less rake now as the cap is $3 not $4 as it was at $20/$40.

I have 2k hands at $1/$2 on Tribeca andpaid $13.19 per 100 hands, on a similar number of hands on Ipoker I paid $12.89 per 100 hands. For some reason that is slightly less on Ipoker even though statistically it should be more. This is however a small sample size.

It should also be pointed out that Ipoker's way of charging rake has not changed, this is just an unfortunate by product for Tribeca players of having to move networks.

For players on our loyalty scheme who play at the lower levels this will not affect you as much, if at all, as there are other factors that will increase your loyalty payments and sponsorship fund contributions which will go some way to offsetting any extra rake you may be paying.

RoundTower

So how do you know how much more rake you are paying?

Using PT or PTO, filter a sample of hands you played all at the same level, either 6 max or full ring. 1000 hands should be enough to get a good idea, but obviously the more the better.

For example, we took Simon's last 1100 hands in $.50-$1 on Tribeca -- a few hours work four tabling. Simon filtered to show hands $0.25 and $2.75 rake amount, inclusive. He had 477 such hands. Each of these hands will now be raked an average of $0.10 more on iPoker, for a total of $47.70 extra rake.

He then counted (manually, but we are working on a better way to do this) hands between $2 and $4.99 pot size. These are particularly prevalent at $.50-$1, he had 290 such hands. They are raked at an average of $0.15 extra, for a total of $43.50 in extra rake.

The total rake taken for those 1100 hands was $458.75. The average number of players at the table was 5.4, so each player paid an average of $84 in rake, or $7.70 per 100 hands. Some players will always lose more to rake than others by virtue of being in more pots, but in general they will be pretty close to this number.

The extra rake was $47.70 plus $43.50 which is $91.20. Distributed over 5.4 players this is $16.89 each or about $1.53 per 100 hands. $1.53/$7.70 = a 20% rake increase. So Simon will be paying 20% more rake on his $0.50-$1 hands than he would if he could play them on Tribeca.

edited for clarity

RoundTower

I don't have my PT database or access to anyone else's but I've made some guesses based on bonus clearance rates posted on the web. I think this stealth rake increase is really going to bite at the low levels: players at $.10-$.25 could find themselves paying 80% more rake. Players at higher levels won't feel it as much and will probably pay less than 5% more at $2-$4 and less than 1% more at $5-10. And even less if you play $20-$40 where Mike informs me the rake has dropped.

I've heard through the grapevine that Green Joker will be improving its reward scheme to somewhat compensate for this. For example, if you are a mid-high volume player and are raking less than 1% more under the new scheme you will be better off with the iPoker scheme. Other iPoker skin owners, what do you say?

RoundTower

robinlacey wrote:

i could be wrong,but i remember reading somewhere that pokertracker has a generic way of calculating rake that doesn't take into account differences between sites in how pots are raked,so it may not be useful for calculating how much rake you have actually payed.

Robin this doesn't have much bearing on the calculations I did in this thread, because the total amount of rake paid by the table is still the same. Some players rake less or more than their share, as I mentioned.

The problem with PT's rake display is it doesn't always agree with the sites' figures for rakeback. But since there is no rakeback on iPoker this is not an issue here.

ianmc38

What would the bb/100 impact of a 20% increase in rake be? Raking a $4 pot seems a little excessive.

sikes

Here are some sql queries you can run on your database to find out the how the new raking affects you. Run this on your database with your tribecca hands.

In each of these change YOUR SN to your screen name!

To learn how to use these on your database, read this thread.

http://www.pokertracker.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4189

Total Hands In DB:

SELECT count(*)
FROM game, game_players, game_level, players, poker_sites ,session
WHERE ( game.game_id = game_players.game_id )
AND ( game.game_level_id = game_level.game_level_id )
AND ( game.site_id = poker_sites.site_id )
AND ( game.player_id = players.player_id )
AND ( game_players.player_id = (select player_id from players where screen_name = 'YOUR SN' AND main_site_id = 13) )
AND game_players.session_id = session.session_id;

Hands that are going to be raked on average .10c more a hand.

SELECT count(*)
FROM game, game_players, game_level, players, poker_sites ,session
WHERE ( game.game_id = game_players.game_id )
AND ( game.game_level_id = game_level.game_level_id )
AND ( game.site_id = poker_sites.site_id )
AND ( game.player_id = players.player_id )
AND ( game_players.player_id = (select player_id from players where screen_name = 'YOUR SN' AND main_site_id = 13) )
AND game_players.session_id = session.session_id
AND game.rake >= 0.25
AND game.rake <= 2.75;

Hands that are now being raked which weren't on tribecca, at an average of .15c a hand

SELECT count(*)
FROM game, game_players, game_level, players, poker_sites ,session
WHERE ( game.game_id = game_players.game_id )
AND ( game.game_level_id = game_level.game_level_id )
AND ( game.site_id = poker_sites.site_id )
AND ( game.player_id = players.player_id )
AND ( game_players.player_id = (select player_id from players where screen_name = 'YOUR SN' AND main_site_id = 13) )
AND game_players.session_id = session.session_id
AND game.pot >= 2.00
And game.pot <= 4.99
And game.flop_1 <> NULL;

-- we need to see a flop for the rake to take effect

Total Rake Paid

SELECT sum(game.rake)
FROM game, game_players, game_level, players, poker_sites ,session
WHERE ( game.game_id = game_players.game_id )
AND ( game.game_level_id = game_level.game_level_id )
AND ( game.site_id = poker_sites.site_id )
AND ( game.player_id = players.player_id )
AND ( game_players.player_id = (select player_id from players where screen_name = 'YOUR SN' AND main_site_id = 13) )
AND game_players.session_id = session.session_id;

sikes

using those numbers sub it into the calculation RT did above.

Average player in hand is found in the game notes window of PT.

ianmc38

Thanks, I'll have a look at that tonight to see the difference.

RoundTower

ianmc38 wrote:

What would the bb/100 impact of a 20% increase in rake be? Raking a $4 pot seems a little excessive.

Actually it's a $2 pot, I edited. If you play a lot you should have a good idea how much bb/100 you pay in rake at each level, or it is easy to find in PT.

RoundTower

The stealth rake increase may not be as bad as I thought. Can anyone confirm that Tribeca raked 5 player PL/NL pots up to a max of $3? On iPoker it is $2 max (I think, impossible to find out for sure). Based on the hands Simon sent me, he would only suffer an 11% rake increase at $.50-$1, not a 20% rake increase. However those of you playing full ring games or lower stakes (where you will rarely have 5 players in a hand or pots between $40 and $60) will still have the same extremely large increase.

Shortstack

RoundTower wrote:

The stealth rake increase may not be as bad as I thought. Can anyone confirm that Tribeca raked 5 player PL/NL pots up to a max of $3? On iPoker it is $2 max (I think, impossible to find out for sure). Based on the hands Simon sent me, he would only suffer an 11% rake increase at $.50-$1, not a 20% rake increase. However those of you playing full ring games or lower stakes (where you will rarely have 5 players in a hand or pots between $40 and $60) will still have the same extremely large increase.

5 player pots were raked $3 max on Tribeca.
4 player pots were raked $2 max on Tribeca.

According to my pt hand histories.

The rake varys dependant on the number of players dealt into the hand not how many players contributed to the pot.

Ipoker is 2-3 $1 max, 4-5 $2 max, 6+ $3 max

RoundTower

Karlh and PPP Pitboss have been answering questions recently about iPoker, so I'm bumping this hoping one of them might comment. Also I'll PM them because they might have missed this thread or wanted to see it die.

Karl/Nikki: what do you have to say on the subject of the recent stealth rake increase on Paddy Power Poker?