What with people Mocking Farming?

Seloth

Edit-I Did this thread to quick and Messed up the title,Its ment to be Whats with people mocking Farming"

Im curiouse to know why people seem to mock People of a farming Backround,Persay This guy in School calls me a farmer as an Insult as My fathers A farmer.

Farmers genraly own allot of land,
Farmers genraly make 100k a year((Even though allot of it goes back into the farm))
Have larger houses


Yet there are always those few from a working class backround which seem to mock them yet they have a tiny house,Low income ect((Sorry if this Offends anyone)) and they are mocking farmers,I find it really pathetic.

Scraggs

Jealousy:p

Wishbone Ash

Seloth wrote:

Edit-I Did this thread to quick and Messed up the title,Its ment to be Whats with people mocking Farming"

Im curiouse to know why people seem to mock People of a farming Backround,Persay This guy in School calls me a farmer as an Insult as My fathers A farmer.

Farmers genraly own allot of land,
Farmers genraly make 100k a year((Even though allot of it goes back into the farm))
Have larger houses


Yet there are always those few from a working class backround which seem to mock them yet they have a tiny house,Low income ect((Sorry if this Offends anyone)) and they are mocking farmers,I find it really pathetic.

Seloth - if you reread your post, you may find the answer!

Mods, this is embarassing to the rest of us who may have a connection with farming.

road_high

Jealousy, most definitely.

Seloth

I like to point out That I was in a rush when posting this but I was going to assume that you would get the genral Jist of it.

The_Conductor

Well, in some countries on the continent calling someone a farmer is actually taken as a compliment, rather than an insult- such as in the Netherlands, the newspaper delivery boy might be called a paper farmer. Other professions would have been considered far less desireable, and more prone to be used as insults. In the Netherlands once again, mining tended to concentrated in the Limburgh region (south east, bordering Belgium), and was considered a profession of last resort. Its a great insult to call someone a Limburgher........

Farming and indeed any of those professions which did not revolve around a clerical progression, were and are often mocked, mostly by those who haven't a clue what being a farmer actually entails, and the rewards that it offers (many of them of a non-financial manner).

So- two choices, educate the imbeciles who mock farmers (or other professions), or quietly sit back in quiet contentment, secure in the knowledge that the fool often opens his/her mouth where the wiseman keeps quiet......

maidhc

Don't worry about it.

All the senior partners in the firm I work for want to retire in the countryside with a small farm. They seem quite happy to swap the yacht for a Ferguson.

Any mocking is jealously.

Wishbone Ash

It's a major status symbol in Dublin.

r3nu4l

I would say jealousy is a big factor. I know a farmer who spends very little time on his land at all and has little interest so long as the money keeps rolling in.

He employs a farm manager to make sure that everything runs smoothly but does very little of the physical work.

I think it stems back to the stereotypical image of a farmer 'thick as sh1t, with nothing but cow-dung between his ears and bailing twine keeping his trousers up'.

The farmer I know wears designer clothes, drives a large BMW and regularly travels around Europe. He also evades tax (not aovoids, I know this for a fact :mad: )

That might be the more common reason for todays dislike...many PAYE workers appear to see the majority of farmers (rightly or wrongly) as tax-evaders and people living off grants that PAYE workers around Europe have paid for and yet they sit in larger houses, with bigger cars etc.

I'm not saying the above is true, but it is definitely a perception, like it or not.

Cantab.

Why people mock farmers?

- favourable inheritence tax
- agri-diesel
- can build a house on a 1/2 acre site in their son's/daughter's name
- government handouts
- VAT rates

A middle class suburban worker can't avail of these tax breaks, unless they buy a farm. And how can a middle class suburban worker ever aspire to owning a farm when they're not competing on a level playing pitch: i.e. farmers transfer their land within their families, whereas a normal worker must pay inheritence tax and subsidise farmers. Jealousy? I don't think so. It's this curious sense of entitlement that farmers have that cheeses off your average worker. Especially when they are sitting on tax-efficient assests with huge price-to-earnings ratios. This option simply is not available to even the most prudent/financially savvy middle class worker. It's a hefty price to pay to support "rural life" so dear to the average Irish man.

But life's tough eh? Well to any poor farmers out there living on the clippings of tin: next time you're feeling smug about "jealous" middle class people, just remember who's supporting your lifestyle.

road_high

Cantab. wrote:

Why people mock farmers?

- favourable inheritence tax
- agri-diesel
- can build a house on a 1/2 acre site in their son's/daughter's name
- government handouts
- VAT rates

A middle class suburban worker can't avail of these tax breaks, unless they buy a farm. And how can a middle class suburban worker ever aspire to owning a farm when they're not competing on a level playing pitch: i.e. farmers transfer their land within their families, whereas a normal worker must pay inheritence tax and subsidise farmers. Jealousy? I don't think so. It's this curious sense of entitlement that farmers have that cheeses off your average worker. Especially when they are sitting on tax-efficient assests with huge price-to-earnings ratios. This option simply is not available to even the most prudent/financially savvy middle class worker. It's a hefty price to pay to support "rural life" so dear to the average Irish man.

But life's tough eh? Well to any poor farmers out there living on the clippings of tin: next time you're feeling smug about "jealous" middle class people, just remember who's supporting your lifestyle.

A middle class worker cannot avail of these for the very reason he/she is not self employed. VAT refunds on farm buidling work and lower excise duties on diesel for tractors seem to me like perfectly reasonable measures, and certainly don't amount to govt hand-outs or the like..

As a working asset of course a lower rate of Inhertitance tax should apply in the case of families. It's not like farmland is some of luxury asset in the vast majority of cases.

As an indigenous Irish industry I think Agriculture and food production should be fully supported. I read lately somewhere that an IDA funded job can cost the exchequer up to e60,000 each. In this context I don't people in Ireland fully appreciate the value of employment created by the ag-food sector.

Seloth

r3nu4l wrote:

I think it stems back to the stereotypical image of a farmer 'thick as sh1t, with nothing but cow-dung between his ears and bailing twine keeping his trousers up'.

That would be the most common awnser,The guy who say's stuff about farmers actualy thought I only get water on certain days and have barley any electricity.*Sigh*

Cantab.

mfitzy wrote:

A middle class worker cannot avail of these for the very reason he/she is not self employed. VAT refunds on farm buidling work and lower excise duties on diesel for tractors seem to me like perfectly reasonable measures, and certainly don't amount to govt hand-outs or the like..

As a working asset of course a lower rate of Inhertitance tax should apply in the case of families. It's not like farmland is some of luxury asset in the vast majority of cases.

As an indigenous Irish industry I think Agriculture and food production should be fully supported. I read lately somewhere that an IDA funded job can cost the exchequer up to e60,000 each. In this context I don't people in Ireland fully appreciate the value of employment created by the ag-food sector.

I'm self employed (quite happily). I can't transfer my business (working asset) effectively tax-free, I have to pay full market rates for residential land if I wish to build a house, I don't get any EU subsidies, I have to pay for diesel at commercial rate, I pay VAT at 21%, etc. Farmers should realise that their lifestyles are being supported by the taxpayer. You talk about some figure of €60,000 - is that net of gross do you think? A company like Intel or Dell for example would get government subsidies, yes, but they pay for it in corporation tax many times over. I'd say one company like Intel (with a global market capitalisation of over $110bn) would contribute more to the Irish economy than all the farmers put together.

So before people start threads like "What with people mocking farming", remember the hand that feeds you. The sense of entitlement on display on this thread, from those who have benefited hugely from the Irish economy, is sickening.

Cantab.

I wonder how many people a farm employs? How many of those jobs would be permanent?

Now ask yourself:

- what is the employment : turnover ratio?
- what is the employment : asset ratio?
- what is the asset : earnings ratio compared to the PE of a top performing ISEQ company?

Compare this to any other company and you'll see why supporting farms with taxpayers' money is highly inefficient. Imagine how much extra money would be generated by putting this money into educating innovators and incentivising entrepreneurs (i.e. provide them with office space and equipment grants).

Large price to pay for supporting the poor 'aul farmers. You should be forced to innovate. If you don't innovate, you are forced to sell. That's the way it is for any other real company that operates in Ireland. Farmers are living in a fantasy land of their own creation (i.e. the farm lobby).

Seloth

Your real have no idea about farming.

The farming econamy is very fragile,The only reson they are doing well now is because Brazil has been infected with foot and mouth disease.

Farmers pay Vat on diesail,

Only Small farms get the large grants.Larger farmers get 40k which all goes back into the Farm and goverment and its's not the Irish goverment paying them,It's the EU.And the Education system gets more money than most countrys in the EU.

And it's not the people who pay for farmers,Its the meat company's.

And I now see why some people said Jelousy,Even though I am on about people who dont have a clue and think farmers are all the hill billy types.So thats why posted this thread,Not to talks about economics so stop whining.

And for the records farmers actualy make the average amout as any other person in this country depending on the year.

pjbrady1

Intel does make a large contribution to the Irish economy. However the economy would survive without Intel (lets say taking Intel straight out of economy tomorrow without debating about the effect it would have on investor confidence.) Now do the same with farming. According to your logic the Irish economy could survive without farming. We would be completely dependant on imports and it would cripple our food processing sector. Ireland would rapidly start to develop a massive trade deficit. Agricultural exports from Ireland are in the billions and with very few non irish companies involved most of the money remains whithin the Irish economy.
Quoting Intels market capitalisation is meaningless. They have several plants all over the world.
Taking the case of Japan (I know you didn't, but I'm just preempting any future posts) as an example of a country that can survive without agriculture is also misplaced logic. Japan has a large hitech industry (and even at that they plant rice right up to the motorways in Japan).
Lastly several economists have shown that a strong agricultural sector is important in developing into a first world nation economy. Economies with high dependencies on imports cannot prosper, Africa has proved that over and over. Africas weak agriculture in comparison to its nations populations has always been a core economic weakness.

maidhc

Cantab. wrote:

I'm self employed (quite happily). I can't transfer my business (working asset) effectively tax-free,

You most certainly can. Special, and pretty much equally generous, tax rules apply to the transfer of a business.

Cantab. wrote:

- favourable inheritence tax
- agri-diesel
- can build a house on a 1/2 acre site in their son's/daughter's name
- government handouts
- VAT rates

A self employed businessman:

Has favourable inheritance tax. (90% reduction on CAT + retirement relief from CGT also)

Gets a tax deduction on diesel that runs the company van. (which, I hasten to add does not have a 7.5L engine like an average tractor!). Farmers must use auto diesel in all normal road going vehicles.

Can build a house wherever he choses. Was much more likely to avail of s.23 type tax relief when it was there, which is far more useful than the site-for-a-child scheme.

Government handouts? Business expansion scheme?!?

VAT? You must be joking. Businesses, unlike farmers for the most part, are registered for VAT. As a result they have far more leeway to essentially screw the taxman by getting all manner of things for "the business" without paying VAT.

Oldtree

with average earnings of a sheep farmer at €5,000 per annum and dairy at €16,000 per annum, most farmers have to have off farm jobs to maintain a reasonable living for their families. i would not do the amount of work necessary to earn such a small amount of money. It is below the average wage. there is no pot of gold in farming which is why very few sons and daughters would like to continue this tradition, in any other sence than a hobby.

there is value in the land, but not site value as even here in mayo its only someone local with local connections and local job that is likely to get planning permission.

When your family has been farming on a piece of land for 80-90 years the continuance of the linage is important, no more so than grannys gold and diamond broach being passed on.

I agree that a grant aided business is doomed to failure, but as an island we should be at least able to feed ourselves (or have the potential to) and it is important that people with the ability to farm should not be lost should another 9-11 (on a larger scale) occour. Ireland imports 90% of its food.

It appears that car parks were the nbig thing for the wealthy tax avoiders of late.

pjbrady1

Henry Forde was famous for paying his workers an above average wage in the days when he began to manufacture the model T. With the model T priced at $250 and his workers earning $5 a day he knew they would be his initial prime customers.
Similarily Tesco recently made a noble gesture of giving all of their workers an 11% payrise across the board. Doubtless they a side benefit will be an increase in staff purchases instore.
If the three large supermarkets (Dunnes/Tesco/Supervalue - Superquinn/Marks n Sparks have no scale) applied the same principles to their food sourcing they would increase Irelands GDP and increase sales in their own stores. If as much products as practicable (not necessarily food) were sourced whithin Ireland they would create considerably more millionaires/very well off/reasonably well off people. There would also be a noticeable increase in employment of people working to service these Irish suppliers.
For example lets take the case of mushrooms. Right now there is severe competition in this sector with mushrooms grown in Holland and picked by Polish workers on contract for 3 euro an hour.
When a supermarket buys in Dutch mushrooms a millionaire is created in Holland and a pretty well off person enriches himself supplying the Polish pickers.
Contrast that with a large scale production in Monaghan. A millionaire is created in Monaghan - with the capability of purchasing a multitude of services in his area. His tunnels are constructed by a well off tunnel services company. Several Eastern European workers get a job earning enough to purchases groceries and services in Monaghan. The upside for Tesco - their Monaghan/Cavan/Roscommon stores notice an increase in employment and spending in their area.
The downside for Tesco - they suffer a slight decrease in margins on mushrooms due to the more expensive price. However a slight reduction in profit on one single low price item hardly outweighs the positive benefits of an increase in consumers and consumer confidence in the entire agriculture producing regions.
Just thought of another positive benefit, ever noticed the brutally bad shelf life of alot of the imported products. Although have the supermarkets figured that veg/fruit that turns bad quickly means you return to purchase again quickly!

Oldtree

or you spray another nasty preservitive onto the apple to make it last as long as you want, and continue on regardless. The penny is what matters to these companys not the pound.

Wash your apples before eating.

:eek:

Seloth

His name was Ford,Not Forde.

Funny enough My second name is Forde.

djmc

I am a farmer I would suggest keep the grants and pay the farmer a fair price for the food produced eg. If I got half the price you pay in the shops I would be more than happy
Milk meat etc is not making any more money to a farmer than it was 25 years ago.
If anyone else in Ireland didnt get a payrise in 25 years there would be nationwide strikes

Seloth

Right,I did the Bruce college revision course in Cork City last week and two girls I know laughed when they found out my dad was a farmers,When I explained how much he made they laughed and said that they could'nt make that much because they are in the Primary sector.Now that dosent make sense,A council worker is in the Tertiary sector and they make hardly any money.

europerson

Seloth wrote:

Right,I did the Bruce college revision course in Cork City last week and two girls I know laughed when they found out my dad was a farmers,When I explained how much he made they laughed and said that they could'nt make that much because they are in the Primary sector.Now that dosent make sense,A council worker is in the Tertiary sector and they make hardly any money.

For a start, you probably ought to have ignored them. The mere divison of the economy into three sectors does not have any implication on how much money is made in each sector or how earnings are distributed in each sector, so I really don't know what you or these girls are talking about.

pjbrady1

What an ignorant statement from those enlightened rich kids. Somebody works in a sector so they can't possibly earn anything.
Mining primary sector, oil primary sector, farming primary sector

....... Unemployed Marketing Grads in five years ...

Wonder who will still be earning the diamonds then.

Wishbone Ash

Seloth wrote:

,When I explained how much he made they laughed

You seem to have an obsession with income. Most of us do not judge others on what they earn. We are not that shallow. Perhaps that is why they laughed.

The_Conductor

Lol.....

Its amusing when you hear these little anecdotes. Its quite something else that people in today's world continue to have these notions.

While on a macro-economic scale what the person said may mean something to them- on a micro scale, the everyday farm gate determines otherwise.

Mental note to self- never ever recommend anyone attend refresher courses in Bruce College......

pjbrady1 wrote:

What an ignorant statement from those enlightened rich kids. Somebody works in a sector so they can't possibly earn anything.
Mining primary sector, oil primary sector, farming primary sector

....... Unemployed Marketing Grads in five years ...

Wonder who will still be earning the diamonds then.

maidhc

Seloth wrote:

Right,I did the Bruce college revision course in Cork City last week and two girls I know laughed when they found out my dad was a farmers,When I explained how much he made they laughed and said that they could'nt make that much because they are in the Primary sector.Now that dosent make sense,A council worker is in the Tertiary sector and they make hardly any money.

Its OK. They probably just attended the geography revision seminar. IIRC that was one of the phrases back when I did geo for the junior cert!

Still and all. The golden rule of farming is to put on the poor mouth. You are letting the side down.

Seloth

They weren't rich kids,they were Middle class or Upper middle class,Such as my self.

And I think you picked my up wrong as of the statement about me judging Income.I don't care how much some one makes,when I said it before it was just saying I'd like to be financially comfy when I'm older.It will probably take a while but meh.

Also I was talking to them today and as I thought they were only messing.

on the river

Bump

Sam Kade

on the river wrote: »

Bump

This thread is a bit old for bumping don't you think?

greysides

Rather than digging up threads that have been dead and buried, perhaps the topic would benefit from you starting a new thread and getting some fresh ideas. Thread closed.