unInteresting Tournament Hand

phantom_lord

avg stack 8.5kish


I've 9k, villain 16+k

blinds 75/150


he limps utg+1, not 100% whether he open limped or not.

I make it 500 to go with AdQh in mp.


He's the only caller.


Flop:

7d5c4d

He checks, I bet 700.

He c/r to 5k.

I dwell up for several mins and move in for the couple of k more.


comments?

valor

I think its real ugly

sikes

pretty bad, just pray he doesnt a pair with an A.

you have the A diamond, so a FD is unlikely. You have no fold equity either

BobSloane

horrorshow. 66 would not shock me here. As sikes said the fact that you have no fold equity makes it even worse. I would be dissappointed if this was how i exited the tournament but hopefully it worked out for you

phantom_lord

what do u point him on?

ianmc38

not a fan.

ocallagh

There is not enough evidence in your post to suggest that he has overbet a draw (most likely two overs + flush) enough of the time to make a push profitable. It does stink of it tho..., but given the info at hand it's a fold on the flop after your continuation was snapped off.

5starpool

You are only beating a total bluff here. Horrible play imo, and if you turned out to be right this time it does not change my opinion.

bops

There is no way you did that!!!!

horrid

i guess it was done to you - sounds like a very bad beat story - you had 77 and he get running diamonds...

phantom_lord

ok, so granted this was pretty bad by me...and I felt like a total idiot after the hand...but


My line of thinking went something like:

it's highly likely that I've missed this flop.

He's going to be raising pairs pf, certainly 88+

He's not doing this with a set.

He's bet is crazy, and certainly not a value bet.

he's highly likely to be rebluffing me.

he's probably limp calling a decent range of high cards.

if he's semi-bluffing a fd I'm ahead.



Basically, I thought he was on a pure bluff, and I was ahead. so I shipped it.

jimbling

his most likely holding is a med pair 88-1010.

Ollieboy

phantom_lord wrote:

ok, so granted this was pretty bad by me...and I felt like a total idiot after the hand...but


My line of thinking went something like:

it's highly likely that I've missed this flop.

He's going to be raising pairs pf, certainly 88+

He's not doing this with a set.

He's bet is crazy, and certainly not a value bet.

he's highly likely to be rebluffing me.

he's probably limp calling a decent range of high cards.

if he's semi-bluffing a fd I'm ahead.



Basically, I thought he was on a pure bluff, and I was ahead. so I shipped it.

You really need to take a break from poker if this is what you were thinking, he would check raise for a lot less if he was bluffing and check/raise bluff at this standard is very rare, he has JJ maybe 88 or even bigger, but he's not folding now and you've got to hit to stay alive.

If he's bluff, than it must have been the Chief! and if it is a bluff check raise, its really bad play on his part. You should have given up in the flop after the check raise and live to fight another day

P.S. this is far from a interesting hand, unless your going to tell us something amazing

sikes

what do you put him on?

you need him to have A8-AJ a load to even make this close to a +ev play.

phantom_lord

P.S. this is far from a interesting hand, unless your going to tell us something amazing

lol, Ithought that after I posted the title!

Ollieboy

phantom_lord wrote:

lol, Ithought that after I posted the title!

yeh and if your going to sell percentages of yourself, stop posting hands like this.....lol

phantom_lord

Ollieboy wrote:

You really need to take a break from poker if this is what you were thinking, he would check raise for a lot less if he was bluffing and check/raise bluff at this standard is very rare, he has JJ maybe 88 or even bigger, but he's not folding now and you've got to hit to stay alive.

If he's bluff, than it must have been the Chief! and if it is a bluff check raise, its really bad play on his part. You should have given up in the flop after the check raise and live to fight another day

P.S. this is far from a interesting hand, unless your going to tell us something amazing

I don't really agree with the 88-jj+ range, why would he ever limp this?

and if he has set/straight why would he make a pretty uncallable bet? unless he's leveling me...:rolleyes:

yeh and if your going to sell percentages of yourself, stop posting hands like this.....lol

Ollieboy

phantom_lord wrote:

I don't really agree with the 88-jj+ range, why would he ever limp this?

and if he has set/straight why would he make a pretty uncallable bet? unless he's leveling me...:rolleyes:

Sorry, just realise there's 2 diamonds on the flop, so he could be drawing, either way, I dont want to play for my whole stack on a guess or a read at this stage when I can wait for a better opportunity later. So with the 2 diamonds, its a draw or a overpair, either I'm guessing this but your only about evens to win if slightly ahead.

Fold and wait for better chance.

RoundTower

I couldn't understand why everyone hated this play so much till I saw you don't have the nut flush draw.

phantom_lord

RoundTower wrote:

I couldn't understand why everyone hated this play so much till I saw you don't have the nut flush draw.

i did! it was just eh...runner runner...

30something

I like the 66 guess here

Ollieboy

phantom_lord wrote:

i did! it was just eh...runner runner...

hope he called you and fish and you felt like one....lol

cooker3

I gave you my hard earned money for this!

Goodluck2me

Lol at ollies post - re selling %s!

also im sure jeff will be delighted this is how he lost a tenner! this is spew as i told you earlier shane. i dont like it.

i must also say that tourment in Drogheda is a super game with a great structure, first time or im sure many times ill play it.

Juan Pablo

I was actually the villian in this hand, nice to meet you Phantom Lord! I did indeed have 66, which held up to knock PL out. Comments on my line here?

LuckyLloyd

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phantom_lord

i don't really understand it tbh. that's probably why i called :rolleyes: lol

Iago

I like it (the 66 play) there's circa 2k in the pot before you act after PL's flop bet, so your options are

1) call, which is no good here

2) push, which is bad enough because you'll only get called when you're at least a 40:60 dog

3) raise, which prevents your opp from outdrawing you cheaply on the turn

we probably think we're ahead here a reasonable percentage of the time, and when we're not we'll get players to fold better hands some of the time, and outdraw them some of the time.

PL has enough room to fold, and knows that if he's staying in the hand all his chips have to go into the middle. If you raise any less he can call and re-evaluate on the turn. You believe you've the strongest hand so you're willing to get all the chips in the middle, don't see much wrong with that.

and if you lose this hand you still have enough chips to play through the tournament, win win really.

BobSloane

The 66 play is pretty good to me. Its the hand that makes most sense. You know you may have the best hand and definetly have the best draw. Its a very strong hand on the flop so you want to get more of your opponents money in the pot- and would be happy to end it at that point. You know by checking the other player will prob continuation bet. I don't think you want to bet out on this hand as you would with a set or top two as if you're called and an overcard falls then you're not sure what to do. Overcards should fold here and you take down a nice pot. Overpairs call here and you have 10 outs (well,8 if he has 88)- but you have him covered so you can afford to take the risk of being called.

LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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BobSloane

LuckyLloyd wrote:

You saw two diamonds on the flop right?

oops! dang rabies. Probably shouldn't have backed Johnny Moss at the WSOP last year either

Iago

LucklLloyd wrote:

He has open limped UTG - this is always a mistake irrespective of your holding. With a 16k stack at the 75 / 150 level either fold or raise in to the pot for 450 - 600.

I completely disagree with this, while I'm not a fan of utg limping (and he was utg+1), I don't see any issue in this instance. It's less than 1% of his stack and if he's confident that he can get action on a positive board for him then why fold? I also wouldn't advocate raising from utg or utg+1 with 66 on a full table generally speaking.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Phantom has a remaining stack of 7.8k. How in the name of God is a check raise to 5k good here? If a fuse didn't go off in Phantom's head then he would have folded. This is because the checkraise creates a situation where Phantom folds everything JP beats and moves in with every hand that has JP a statistical underdog and drawing to 10 outs.

You're assuming that phantom is a good player, you're assuming that in general terms he knows that he's better off folding here than pushing with AQ and AK.

JP gave him enough rope to hang himself and he duly did so. While the raise could have been less, maybe to 4K or so, you have to allow (and JP will have to confirm or deny) that he probably doesn't want a caller, but doesn't want it to look like he's pushing with air either.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

If JP has put him on overcards, why not checkraise to between 2100 and 3000? This provides Phantom with the opportunity to make a mistake by calling or shoving when he shouldn't.

JP may well have put him on a low overpair either, if he raises to 2100, then phantom has to call 1400 (leaving him with 6.4k, enough to keep playing) to win a pot worth 5,400 (4k exc. his call) If a T/J/Q/K/A lands what does JP do next?

LuckyLloyd wrote:

How exactly is raising to 5k going to produce a different result than if you push??

If you push there, it comes across as an obvious bluff, raising to 5K sets off warning lights, but there is a chance that you have something. Realistically you're probably holding at least a pair with a decent draw, and it's more of a semi-bluff bet.

players will go over the top (as evidenced) with overcards or fold hands that either ahead of you or have a strong possibility of outdrawing you. The object may well be to force your opponent to commit all their chips when their unsure of where they stand. Any more than 5k and it looks like a total bluff, any less than 4K and phantom has enough to call and get away on a bad turn.

I really don't think jp did much wrong in this hand.

phantom_lord

Iago wrote:

I completely disagree with this, while I'm not a fan of utg limping (and he was utg+1), I don't see any issue in this instance. It's less than 1% of his stack and if he's confident that he can get action on a positive board for him then why fold? I also wouldn't advocate raising from utg or utg+1 with 66 on a full table generally speaking.

open raising is way better than open limping.

You're assuming that phantom is a good player, you're assuming that in general terms he knows that he's better off folding here than pushing with AQ and AK.

JP gave him enough rope to hang himself and he duly did so. While the raise could have been less, maybe to 4K or so, you have to allow (and JP will have to confirm or deny) that he probably doesn't want a caller, but doesn't want it to look like he's pushing with air either.



JP may well have put him on a low overpair either, if he raises to 2100, then phantom has to call 1400 (leaving him with 6.4k, enough to keep playing) to win a pot worth 5,400 (4k exc. his call) If a T/J/Q/K/A lands what does JP do next?


If you push there, it comes across as an obvious bluff, raising to 5K sets off warning lights, but there is a chance that you have something. Realistically you're probably holding at least a pair with a decent draw, and it's more of a semi-bluff bet.

players will go over the top (as evidenced) with overcards or fold hands that either ahead of you or have a strong possibility of outdrawing you. The object may well be to force your opponent to commit all their chips when their unsure of where they stand. Any more than 5k and it looks like a total bluff, any less than 4K and phantom has enough to call and get away on a bad turn.

I really don't think jp did much wrong in this hand.

what I did in this hand was extememly unusual, and is not what's generally gonna happen. People aren't gonna call a 2k+ reraise with missed overs, maybe go over the top with adkd that's about it. It would be lunacy to call off 3k-4k of a 8k stack with ak.

a reraise of 2k+ achieves pretty much the same as a 5k raise. and shoving is crazy! it's like a 2k pot!

how can a 5k raise over the top of a 700 bet into a 1200ish pot ever be good??

Iago

phantom_lord wrote:

what I did in this hand was extememly unusual, and is not what's generally gonna happen. People aren't gonna call a 2k+ reraise with missed overs, maybe go over the top with adkd that's about it. It would be lunacy to call off 3k-4k of a 8k stack with ak.

a reraise of 2k+ achieves pretty much the same as a 5k raise. and shoving is crazy! it's like a 2k pot!

how can a 5k raise over the top of a 700 bet into a 1200ish pot ever be good??

it's extremely unusual for you, and unusual for the majority of players who think they're good. but look at it from JP's point of view, he has to raise, the only question is how much. He still doesn't know what you're holding, best guess if you're a randomer is probably 88+, AK-AJs, AK-AQ, and maybe (but unlikely KQs)

There's 1925 in the middle.

If he makes a bet that you call and the turn comes up A/K/Q/J/T/9 or any diamond he probably has to check/fold. Or put money in when it's far more likely he has the worst of it.

So say he bets 2K, are you really folding AdKd, AdQd, KdQd, here? What about AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT/99? What about AdKx?

eiether way if you call and the turn is bad, which it more than likely is then JP has wasted chips.


He didn't want you to call the flop bet, but if you were going to call then he wanted you to know you where playing for your stack. There's no ambiguity there, that was the statement he was making.

Juan Pablo

Some intersting schools of thought there, I appriciate the responses. UTG (Northern chap with grey hair) had limped in also, he had been limping a good bit up to then so I wasn't too concerned with his holding, it did however prevent me raising. In saying that, I'll probably open limp with 66 here about 70% of the time anyway because of position. I agree that to open limp in LP with a hand like this would be a sin, but UTG+1 and 100+ BB deep at a full table I think an open limp is ok. My check raise on the flop was intended to take the pot there and then (btw did you not make it 1000, I could have sworn you bet out two 500 chips), and chase out any flush draws/overs as most turn cards are not going to be nice for my sixes. I was very surprised to see your holding, but I thought Stephen (guy sitting on your right) was a bit out of line for his overly vocal condmenation of your play.

phantom_lord

lol, yeah, probably, i didn't really worry about it too much tho.

I put out 2 500 chips but said 700.

Hectorjelly

Saying open raising is better than open limping is like saying betting is better than calling, its nonsense. There are plenty of times when open limping in early position is fine. Especially in a deep stacked tournament,

Also I disagree with lloyds comments about the check raise size amount. Firstly trying to keep him in the hand with barely more than a minraise is about the worst thing you can do. We are out of position with a medium sized pot and a very vunerable hand. We really dont want a random hand to call us here with 2 streets to go. Also a bad option is a push, as this is the raise that looks the weakest, so no overpair will ever fold. Also if we push he cant really make much of a mistake with AK and AQ. Somewhere in the middle of those two amounts is the right amount depending on your exact intentions. 5k is probably a bit too much but its not awful, and its better than pushing or minraising.

Just calling is also an option I would consider in his shoes.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Goodluck2me

Hectorjelly wrote:

Saying open raising is better than open limping is like saying betting is better than calling, its nonsense. There are plenty of times when open limping in early position is fine. Especially in a deep stacked tournament, .

i agree with this you will end up playing a lot of 3-bet pots with garbage oop if you do this as a matter of custom. it also leads you to be 3-bet light which isnt good either imo.