Elections for dummies

boardsdotie

I do not completely understand how a General election vote system works.

Can some one explain ?

Can we sticky a thread for dummies

gilroyb

Not sure what exactly you want explained, so I'll try this. Ask again if you mean something else.

The Irish system is the "Single Transferable Vote". This works by each person who votes having the option to show as much preference they have for candidates as they wish. The voter marks their first choice (the person they most want to see elected), with the number 1. They then decide whether there is anyone among the other candidates they would like to see elected, for instance were candidate number 1 not to be elected. This person is identified with a number higher than 1. The voter can identify as much of their preference as they wish, going through each and every candidate, or alternatively stopping after the first person they select.

It is relatively simple for the voter, there may be a few incentives to vote strategically due to the way the count works, but less incentives than most systems. In general, the best way for a voter to vote is simply to decide what order they rank the various candidates and number them in this standing.


As for the system itself, it is a bit more complicated. The country is broken down into constituencies. These constituencies each have between three and five members of parliament. When the votes are counted, the candidates are ranked in order of the number of first preference votes they get. If a candidate happens to pass the quota at this stage, (the number of votes that that particular constituency has as the benchmark for election, is a function of the number of votes and the number of seats), then they are deemed elected. Candidates who pass the quota will have their 'surplus' votes distributed among the remaining candidates. If there are more candidates than there are seats available, and all the seats have not been filled, then the candidate with the lowest number of votes will be eliminated. This candidates votes will be distributed depending on the second preference of the particular voter (It is possible that some voters only marked their first choice, so these votes will have no further effect). The remaining candidates are now ranked according to the number of votes they now have of those cast.

This process continues, candidates move towards the quota. If they pass it, their surplus is distributed among the rest of the field. The bottom candidate is eliminated and their votes are also distributed. The distribution of votes works the same way for all votes, the vote goes to the highest preference available (I.E. the most preferred candidate of the various candidates still in the race).

This continues until the seats are filled by eliminating the lower candidates until eliminating further candidates cannot have any further effect on the standing of candidates who will be elected.



The moral of the story is that as a voter, don't worry about how it works, just worry about listening to the candidates, and decide which order you would like to see them elected. Get your ballot and mark them in this order, with the highest preference candidate getting number 1, next 2, next 3 etc. The system will put everything together in a quite impressive way.


Hope this helps

boardsdotie

Niall Collins (FF) is a brilliant Councilor for Limerick County.

But I Like both Labour and PD Manifests.

Can I vote for my councilor and another party ?

boardsdotie

gilroyb wrote:

Not sure what exactly you want explained, so I'll try this. Ask again if you mean something else.

The Irish system is the "Single Transferable Vote". This works by each person who votes having the option to show as much preference they have for candidates as they wish. The voter marks their first choice (the person they most want to see elected), with the number 1. They then decide whether there is anyone among the other candidates they would like to see elected, for instance were candidate number 1 not to be elected. This person is identified with a number higher than 1. The voter can identify as much of their preference as they wish, going through each and every candidate, or alternatively stopping after the first person they select.

It is relatively simple for the voter, there may be a few incentives to vote strategically due to the way the count works, but less incentives than most systems. In general, the best way for a voter to vote is simply to decide what order they rank the various candidates and number them in this standing.


As for the system itself, it is a bit more complicated. The country is broken down into constituencies. These constituencies each have between three and five members of parliament. When the votes are counted, the candidates are ranked in order of the number of first preference votes they get. If a candidate happens to pass the quota at this stage, (the number of votes that that particular constituency has as the benchmark for election, is a function of the number of votes and the number of seats), then they are deemed elected. Candidates who pass the quota will have their 'surplus' votes distributed among the remaining candidates. If there are more candidates than there are seats available, and all the seats have not been filled, then the candidate with the lowest number of votes will be eliminated. This candidates votes will be distributed depending on the second preference of the particular voter (It is possible that some voters only marked their first choice, so these votes will have no further effect). The remaining candidates are now ranked according to the number of votes they now have of those cast.

This process continues, candidates move towards the quota. If they pass it, their surplus is distributed among the rest of the field. The bottom candidate is eliminated and their votes are also distributed. The distribution of votes works the same way for all votes, the vote goes to the highest preference available (I.E. the most preferred candidate of the various candidates still in the race).

This continues until the seats are filled by eliminating the lower candidates until eliminating further candidates cannot have any further effect on the standing of candidates who will be elected.



The moral of the story is that as a voter, don't worry about how it works, just worry about listening to the candidates, and decide which order you would like to see them elected. Get your ballot and mark them in this order, with the highest preference candidate getting number 1, next 2, next 3 etc. The system will put everything together in a quite impressive way.


Hope this helps

Thanks for the concise explanation.

Obviously I re-posted before I read this.

Is this true......

Councilors are dependent on government.

If for example Labour are in power My new councilor will then be labour.

gilroyb

You can vote for any amount of candidates of any party in any order. Party doesn't affect your vote.

For instance, if FF have 3 candidates, FG 2, and PD's/Labour 1; then you can vote for one FF candidate first, one of the FG second, another of the FG candidates, the PD third, the Labour one forth, another FF candidate, back to FG and then the last FF candidate.

Alternatively, you could vote for all three of the FF candidates, the PD candidate, then all three of the FG candidates.

Alternatively again you could just vote for the Labour candidate and finish there.



As I said, as a voter you decide which order you most want to see the various people elected. You can take notice of their party, but you don't have to vote the party line. If you like a party but not a particular candidate, you can vote for all their other candidates but ignore the one particular candidate.

Alternatively, if you really like a particular candidate but hate their party colleagues, you can give them whatever preference you like and still ignore the rest of the party.



Look at the list of candidates, arrange which order you want to see them elected, and put that on your ballot. Party lines can be crossed, in fact on the ballot party lines don't even exist, candidates are listed in order of surname.

gilroyb

Sorry, I thought you were mentioning the councillor as someone who was going for election as a TD (something that's fairly common, the Seanad (Senate) and local government (councillors) are seen by some as stepping stones towards National government in the Dail. If they aren't up as a candidate in the General Election, then obviously you can't give them a preference in the election, (no write in candidates).


Councillors are elected in local government elections. These elections are distinct from the General Election. They were last held in 2004, for a term length that I honestly can't remember. If your councillor decides to stay on as a local representative, and doesn't get elected to a different position such as TD then they will stay as a councillor no matter what happens at the national level.

Voting (for instance) Labour into power at national level will not change who was elected into power in local government in 2004.

The one thing that the Dail election will alter, (other than the Dail of course), is the make up of Seanad Eireann. The Seanad is to some extent a function of the parties that make up the government of the Dail. Not something you really need to worry about when deciding, chances are the Senators you might admire will be going for election to the Dail anyway, or aren't effected by the change of Taoiseach, that is they are elected to different panels, not appointed by the Taoiseach.

Capt'n Midnight

another way of looking at PR is you can vote against everyone

pick the guy/gal you hate most - leave their box empty
now pick the person you hate nearly as much give him/her your 18th preference.
now the first person can NEVER get your vote.

after that fill in them until you get to No. 1


Pity there isn't an option for none of the above !

boardsdotie

gilroyb wrote:

Sorry, I thought you were mentioning the councillor as someone who was going for election as a TD (something that's fairly common, the Seanad (Senate) and local government (councillors) are seen by some as stepping stones towards National government in the Dail. If they aren't up as a candidate in the General Election, then obviously you can't give them a preference in the election, (no write in candidates).


Councillors are elected in local government elections. These elections are distinct from the General Election. They were last held in 2004, for a term length that I honestly can't remember. If your councillor decides to stay on as a local representative, and doesn't get elected to a different position such as TD then they will stay as a councillor no matter what happens at the national level.

Voting (for instance) Labour into power at national level will not change who was elected into power in local government in 2004.

The one thing that the Dail election will alter, (other than the Dail of course), is the make up of Seanad Eireann. The Seanad is to some extent a function of the parties that make up the government of the Dail. Not something you really need to worry about when deciding, chances are the Senators you might admire will be going for election to the Dail anyway, or aren't effected by the change of Taoiseach, that is they are elected to different panels, not appointed by the Taoiseach.

Thanks again

You have cleared a lot up for me.

gilroyb

One thing I meant to add, they've abolished the 'dual mandate', which means that if your councillor does go for election as a TD and gets elected, they will be replaced as a councillor as they move to the Dail.

By convention the person being co-opted to replace them on the Council is a member of the same party as the Councillor that resigns, though this is not by law, just the way it's normally done (Though this may have been changed/formalised when the dual mandate was removed).

Colonel Sanders

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Pity there isn't an option for none of the above !

I actually agree with this, you should be allowed voice your dissatisfaction with all candidates w/o spoiling your vote.

Our man in Havana

How excatly which votes they choose to distribute as a surplus?

skearon

boardsdotie wrote:

I do not completely understand how a General election vote system works.

Can some one explain ?

Can we sticky a thread for dummies

This might help:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/government-in-ireland/elections-and-referenda/voting/proportional_representation

Our man in Havana

Thanks for that.

Capt'n Midnight

Bond-007 wrote:

How excatly which votes they choose to distribute as a surplus?

AFAIK this is semi-random whereby a mix / repreresentative sample of the votes is shared out. This is done by moving physical papers in the count centres in public view.

Tallymen from the parties would complain at this stage if they felt the mix wasn't representative.

I think, but I'm not sure, that they mark them so that during a recount it's the same votes transferred each time.

This is one area where electronic voting would differ greatly from the manual system. In theory you could re-run the count many many times using different random vote transfers to see if it made any difference. But the process isn't transparent and so has to be rejected as it could be used to swing marginals by repeating the process till you got the "right" mix of votes.

gilroyb

It seems to work on a 'last in first out', type of process. The votes above the quota become the surplus to distribute. This is why I said above that there may be some incentives to vote strategically, even though it's meant to be as representative a system as possible. The reason there is an ability to be strategic is that voters could try to be part of the surplus by giving their early preferences to candidates who will get eliminated before their actual preferred candidate. This also means that if a party's support is focused in a very specific geographical area, it will gain a boost (if these votes are taken as the surplus) or a deficit (if these votes aren't used to calculate the surplus and instead are part of the initial candidates quota)

This should all have been solved by electronic voting, as an electronic system could have calculated the exact numbers of votes that should be transferred to each of the remaining candidates regardless of the order the votes were calculated in. The really funny thing is though, that this problem with the system was actually built into the electronic system, to ensure that the computerised system wouldn't be criticised as being different to the existing system. So the sole real advantage of electronic voting was actually avoided.