Raise poll, how much?

jacQues

In a tournament the blinds are 100 / 200. There is one limper and the SB announces "raise", then thinks for a second, and says "400". How many chips should (s)he put out?

Mellor

400, since the raise was 400. (500 total)

I picked 400 total, raises are easier understood in a running total amount.
if somebody is announcing a raise amount they should make their intention clear,
"raise 400 on top" "raise 400 more" etc

saying the raise amount only gets annoying, especially in games filled with min raise merchants.

blinds 75/150
UTG raise 300
+1 raise 150
+2 250
fold
call
raise 450
dealer folds due to confusion, raise clearly fools

RoundTower

300 or 500, it's not clear from what he said and you should let him do whatever he intended to do.

bohsman

400, since the raise was 400. (500 total)

I will take this as 400 total everytime, its a bit similar to the "Ill call you and raise you" syndrome.

pppspecial

he should put in 600 in total as raise 400 would mean 400 on top off what ever the raiser amount is or in this case the limpers call or have i smoked to much weed.

Solksjaer

Definitely 600. The big blind is 200, he says raise 400. He is not raising his small blind he is riasing the BB. so 400 raise on BB = 600.

a-k-47

if he said "to" 400 then 300. But he announced a raise of 400..so he cannot be raising his sb it has to be bb obviously, 600. If im bb ill always ask anyway what amount is due.

Jools Poker

gotta be 600- if he only used the words "raise -400" then it id a raise of 400 as opposed to a riase to 400 and therefore he must put in 400 on top of the bet coming into him (200). Given that he already has 100 in then it's another 500....

Mr. Flibble

I agree with RT. It isn't clear if it should be 400 more or 400 total.

He might be saying 'Raise 400.' or 'Raise. 400.' It is impossible to tell without clarification.

5starpool

400, since the raise was 400. (500 total)

I always talk in totals, and find it is the clearest way to work in general, so in this instance the amouNt would be 400 total, but it can be interpreted as 'raise by 400' instead, but I much prefer when people work in totals.

Hitman Actual

What RT and Mr Flibble said: get clarification from him. A poll on this makes little sense, tbh, as you're just getting confused interpretations of a confusing situation.

jacQues

lenny_leonard wrote:

What RT and Mr Flibble said: get clarification from him. A poll on this makes little sense, tbh, as you're just getting confused interpretations of a confusing situation.

I guess you could ask that questions as well. Should the dealer ask for clarification or simply apply the rules and if needed correct the chips put in after a binding verbal declaration of the player?

For all intents and purposes, let's assume that the dealer should apply the rules correctly and correct the player if needed. There definitely is an answer to this question although I also know some casinos here in Ireland that utilize a different rule instead.

Because of that I am very interested as to what extend this affects people's judgement in this matter. Since to me the only reason to ask for clarification is simply because some casinos use a different rule. If they all applied the same rules there would be no confusion at all.

Also, I disagree on the statement that "raise.......400" is different to "raise 400". That only leads to more unnecessary confusion and may play into the ballpark of angle-shooters.

jacQues

Hitman Actual

Speaking from live experience, I would expect a good dealer to ask straight away what the raiser intends if the intention is unclear. In a home game (or a dealer-less game in a casino), I'd hope that someone at the table is observant enough to ask what the raiser means when the intention is unclear. I've honestly never seen much of a problem with this.

But in your case mentioned, I think that because the current bet into the SB is 200, then saying "raise 400" (or "raise.....400") means a total of 600. So he needs to put 500 into the pot, and it's 400 back to the BB and the inital limper(s). The amount of chips he already has in for his SB shouldn't matter here, as this just adds confusion to the table in general. He's the only person thinking about his SB amount, whereas the other players will be thinking about any raises in relation to the BB amount.

So if a person doesn't include the terms "raise to X" or "raise, X total" when they announce the raise, then it should be considered as an addition to the BB.

HalfBaked

pppspecial wrote:

or have i smoked to much weed.

I haven't really read the post but the answer is definetly YES

nineten

i deal and i'd ask four hundred total or more?
unless of course he threw out his chips while saying it...


it's never five

DubTony

500, since the raise was 400 over the BB. (600 total)

Damn, I read it wrong. 300 more to 400 total. Best to always say how much the total bet is.

bohsman

400, since the raise was 400. (500 total)

lenny_leonard wrote:

Speaking from live experience, I would expect a good dealer to ask straight away what the raiser intends if the intention is unclear.

I would inform the big blind that it is 400 total before the small blind has put the raise out. Sometimes I will ask for clarification and ask for the player to speak in full numbers.

RoundTower

If he says "raise, 400" and throws out 300 more in chips I let the game go on. If he says "raise, 400" and throws out 500 more I let the game go on. If he says "raise, 400" and then looks confused and asks me how much he has to put out I probably tell him 300 more. If he is trying to angle shoot I will probably know and I will chop off his hand. If the big blind tries to act before the small blind is finished raising I will tell him not to.

Saying "raise, 400" is not necessarily a binding verbal declaration of an amount as Jacques put it, it's in the same category as "raise, a handful".

jacQues

RoundTower wrote:

Saying "raise, 400" is not necessarily a binding verbal declaration of an amount as Jacques put it, it's in the same category as "raise, a handful".

Absolutely not true. Saying "one thousand" without the word "raise" is clear right? 1,000 chips total. Surely not "Oh some nicely coloured chips, let me see which ones".

Saying "raise 400" is no different. The "400" part is definitely binding. The only thing to 'get' is what it means as to in addition (of what) or total.

jacQues

phantom_lord

raise 400 is unclear as is raise a handful.

fuzzbox

400, since the raise was 400. (500 total)

Its amazing how people (and I mean you guys), can make such a simple thing so difficult.

I really like RTs take on this, and would back it 100%.

Down with rules that spoil the fun.

jacQues

Now the poll is closed we can see a clear pattern. And here is my view:

INTERNATIONAL RULES
According to the official poker rules, "raise 400" is always a raise over the last bet. So 600 total. This is how its done in most places around the world, including, but not limited to, the WSOP. If "raise to 400", "raise 400 straight" or any of those is used, its different of-course (e.g. 400 total). But the announcement "raise 400" cannot be mistaken for anything else than 600 total. And yes, without doubt its a binding verbal declaration of your action.

IRISH RULES
Just like our misuse of "double last bet" and string betting rule, in most places in Ireland "raise 400" means 400 total. A lot of (most?) casinos use this. Since this poll is on an Irish board, this answer is just as correct as the international rules' answer and arguably even more correct.

Correctly spoken by many, a good dealer will ask for clarification and/or allow a mix of both set of rules. In most places, that is. Some places will either enforce the international- or Irish rules. Its one of those things that can be confusing as hell. Note though that this situation is the logical best only because of this difference. If we all aligned to the international rules it would be much easier.

Conclusion: I expected a bigger difference and not such a close call. This means that either a lot of voters play internationally of that the number of places in Ireland where "raise 400" means 600 total is much larger than I anticipated.

jacQues

Mellor

400, since the raise was 400. (500 total)

jacQues wrote:

IRISH RULES
Just like our misuse of "double last bet"

lets settle thatone with another poll, as this one got nowhere

jacQues

Mellor wrote:

lets settle thatone with another poll, as this one got nowhere

Got nowhere? That depends on what the poll is supposed to do. A poll like this is used to gain knowledge about the current point of view from boardies. And not to change anything.

So yes, the poll was a success. >40 votes is good for such a rules detail. If you want to change the world, Mellor, maybe don't try to do so here on boards? But as far as gaining insight is concerned, this poll got pretty far.

jacQues
(happy hamster)

RoundTower

this thread proved that polls are always retarded.

Hectorjelly

Ive found turks worse

bohsman

400, since the raise was 400. (500 total)

jacQues wrote:

official poker rules

lol