3 tourney hands

BigCityBanker

These 3 hands have p1ssed me off no end - opinions? I have resounted the action as best I can, some of the details may be inaccurate but they are as good as i can remember.

Hand 1: Tribecca Cardiff Qualifier, 52 players remaining from a starting 94. Im 3rd in chips with 19k, Im in the SB with AcQc, blinds have just gone to 200/400

After 3 limpers CO-1 raises to 4k, He is the only player at the table ive taken much notice of, he seems to be decent and maintains he has laid down AK to a reraise by me earlier in the game. He has c.16k in chips. we both cover the table easily. Co folds, Button folds.... Whats your move? Pot has 5800 in the middle before i do anything!!

Hand 2: Live, blinds 100/200, I think we are 8 handed, I have 9k and we all have roughly the same, except FT Warren who has c.14k

Im in the SB with 10c8c, UTG folds, Lazare raises to 700 (I think the blinds have just gone up and i get the ompression that he wanted to raise more but has made an error), Warren from Full Tilt calls, Spiral calls, Smuph calls, back to me in the SB and reckon there is enuf in the middle so I call, BB calls, Pot 4,200 - 6 players, Flop K X X with two spades, it is checked all the way around, Turn X, board is very dry. It is checked to Warren who bets 1500, Spiral goes into the tank for ages and calls, folded back to me. Whats your move with 2 players inc original raiser left to act behind you?

Hand 3: Live, blinds 100/200, Table has been plpaying very conservatively and I raise from MP1 with XX to 875. Lazare comes along for the spin. Flop A 9 8, I bet 925, Lazare goes into the tank and reraises to 2k - I pretty confident he has an Ace and he has raised to find out where he is in the hand? Whats your move?

Hectorjelly

Hand 1 Fold unless he is raising limpers very light, in which case push

Hand 2 Do you have a flush draw? Id just fold here anyway

Hand 3 That would depend on my holding. I wouldnt be so sure he has an ace

cardshark202

1: Fold

2: Fold

3: How much do you both have behind?

BigCityBanker

Hand 2 - no flush draw

Hand 3 - effective stacks 8k

cardshark202

3: If you're sure of your read, shove.

phantom_lord

1. fold

2.

3. push, if u think your read's goot




I wonder how often i end up folding the best hand thinking he could only raise with xx, when really he's just finding out if his maginal hand is good.:mad:

BigCityBanker

I suppose hands 2 and 3 above are situational and I cant really explain here.

Hand 1: Im pretty sure he is raising with a wide range here to punish the limpers, I generally shove from this spot if I feel it is the case. I go against my instinct and fold - he takes down the pot and shows AJ to prove that he wasnt bluffing!!

Hand 2: Again im pretty sure nobody has a King as they would have bet the flop with a flush draw out there. Warren is a very aggressive player and if he has any of the flop he bets it hard, Spiral is weak tight and would fold his way into the middle of next week. Im certain Warrens is an information bet (1500), Spiral antagonises for ages and calls, Again I dont go with my gut and fold. Players behid fold, they both check the flop and Spiral wins with QQ. There was a starting stack in the middle and im all but certain I can take it but dont go with it. Terrible on my behalf to second guess myself - this put me on tilt.

Hand 3: I have air but Laz antagonised about raising, again i second guess myself and fold. He confirms AJ and says he lays down to a shove?

Moral of the story - I need to stop thinking and start playing.

a-k-47

I understand where your coming from here BCB, your reading of the player hands is very good and you should take advantage of this, its will make a big difference to becoming a winning player. I guess all it takes it that extra bit of bottle vital in these mtts. best of luck in bringing it into your game.

Daithio

The first hand is a definite fold. Sure, he had AJ that time, but it's such a huge gamble to play AQ there. No need to get involved.

Hand two I think again it's way to much of a gamble. Bluffing in a pot with that many players with complete air is never a good idea, whatever your reads. If you're so certain they would have bet the flop with a hand, then they'll be totally certain that you would have bet either the flop or the turn with a hand, and might make an heroic call. If you pushed there I'd 100% call you with QQ.

Hand three, again just no need to get involved. Your read was correct, but if you start making those sort of moves when your oppo has shown such strength, they'll only work for a couple of weeks before people start looking you up with garbage.

Much better off waiting for better spots to bluff in IMO.

connie147

Have to agree with Daithio here Noel.. You dont need to get involved here in hand one with AQ, you'll surely find better spots than tangling with this guy OOP with a not so great holding, your 3rd in chips so just let it go.(if he showed AK you'd be delighted with the fold).
Hand 2...Cant see how you'd get away with a push here. theres a flush draw out there and youve checked the flop and the turn in a multi-way pot, for sure you'll get called.
Hand 3----I think your bet on the flop(less than half the pot) was small enough to encourage your opponnent to reraise you, but having said that, his reraise was not convincing either. I think if you had come out betting approx 1700 it would have shown a lot more strength. Any reraise by him now is committing his stack so I doubt he'd be as likely to do it.

Oh, Noel, dont ever stop thinking while your playing.Your decisions were good.

Gholimoli

1.fold

2.if you wanna make a move make it prelfop.fold as played

3.i take it you didnt name your hand here to indicate it does not matter what you have here !
but it does so cant realy comment with out it.
if you have an A shove else fold if you think he has an A.

phantom_lord

3.i take it you didnt name your hand here to indicate it does not matter what you have here !
but it does so cant realy comment with out it.
if you have an A shove else fold if you think he has an A.

if we're gonna shove does it really matter if we have an ace or not? it's a bluff shove not a value shove?

Gholimoli

phantom_lord wrote:

if we're gonna shove does it really matter if we have an ace or not? it's a bluff shove not a value shove?

My shove was a protection/value shove not as a bluff.
I don’t expect villain to fold an A there.
If I have an A it makes it less likely for him to have one and if I don’t have one I certainly will not try to get some1 off it with those stacks.

Solksjaer

I reckon the more you play the more your instincts are honed. If you say your instincts tell you something I think the optimal fold here as advised is not the correct play , otherwise what is the point in having those instincts. In my opinion, if you are sure of what your gut is telling you, you should play hand 1 (for example) ultra aggressive. If you instincts are correct you will win the pot. If your instincts are not correct, well then you need to revert to optimal play and fold hands like this until your instincts are something that you can rely upon. Optimal play is all well and good but if everyone played by the book the game would be predictable and boring.
.I'm not saying playing AQ way out of position is a good idea, what I am saying is to trust in what you are instincts are telling you, especially if they have proven correct in the past. Don't forget every game/hand is situational.

Against a table of unknowns I'd fold all 3 hands. (2 years ago when I started playing I'd have played all 3..sad but true)


Also for these events where losing is not such a huge deal, it's a good opportunity to work on parts of your game that may be of use in BIGGER tournaments, and that doesn't mean developing bad habits by playing OOP etc. It's more working on what you think are good and bad about your game and using them to see how they perform over time. I've started trying to work out people style of play and what their ranges are etc, and it really had improved my understanding of NL Holdem , plus I find I pay much more attention to what's going on around me that I've ever done before. Now when I go out of a tournament I usually have done so due to bad luck and not bad play, for me that's a big improvement and makes me more optimistic about the next few tourmnaments I play in.

Of course the pros on this have more experience on this subject but I'm a firm believer in trusting in your feel and that's not just in poker.

Good Luck !

Gholimoli

Solksjaer wrote:

I reckon the more you play the more your instincts are honed. If you say your instincts tell you something I think the optimal fold here as advised is not the correct play , otherwise what is the point in having those instincts. In my opinion, if you are sure of what your gut is telling you, you should play hand 1 (for example) ultra aggressive. If you instincts are correct you will win the pot. If your instincts are not correct, well then you need to revert to optimal play and fold hands like this until your instincts are something that you can rely upon. Optimal play is all well and good but if everyone played by the book the game would be predictable and boring.
.I'm not saying playing AQ way out of position is a good idea, what I am saying is to trust in what you are instincts are telling you, especially if they have proven correct in the past. Don't forget every game/hand is situational.

Against a table of unknowns I'd fold all 3 hands. (2 years ago when I started playing I'd have played all 3..sad but true)


Also for these events where losing is not such a huge deal, it's a good opportunity to work on parts of your game that may be of use in BIGGER tournaments, and that doesn't mean developing bad habits by playing OOP etc. It's more working on what you think are good and bad about your game and using them to see how they perform over time. I've started trying to work out people style of play and what their ranges are etc, and it really had improved my understanding of NL Holdem , plus I find I pay much more attention to what's going on around me that I've ever done before. Now when I go out of a tournament I usually have done so due to bad luck and not bad play, for me that's a big improvement and makes me more optimistic about the next few tourmnaments I play in.

Of course the pros on this have more experience on this subject but I'm a firm believer in trusting in your feel and that's not just in poker.

Good Luck !

Optimal play is not something you revert back to or switch on and off when other things fail .
It does not suggest playing against your gut feelings or instincts.
Optimal play incorporates your instincts and gut feelings about the situation in to many other factors and decides what would be the most profitable/least exploitable set of actions.

BigCityBanker

I think people might have looked at Hand 2 in the wrong way. It was probably a bad hand to put up here. You really have to know the players to understand why I wanted to push.

Warren is uber aggro - nobody sees a cheap turn with him if he catches the flop. Spiral is the definition of weak tight - he seriously would fold his way into the middle of next week. Neither commit their stacks without a seriously legit hand. The reason I didnt push was cos I was worried about the players behind. I wonder what Smurph or Laz thought of the hand.

I like alot of what Solskjaer has posted - there are probably better ways to articulate our points but I think we are on the same wavelength with our thought processes.

Solksjaer

Gholimoli wrote:

Optimal play is not something you revert back to or switch on and off when other things fail .
It does not suggest playing against your gut feelings or instincts.
Optimal play incorporates your instincts and gut feelings about the situation in to many other factors and decides what would be the most profitable/least exploitable set of actions.

So the optimal way to play this hand was to go agianst his gut instincts gained from playing at the table with these lads. NO? YES? My point is missed I think.. .. The optimal was to play these hands suggests a fold as all the experts here have advised. This advice does not account for his gut feel as only he can account for that due to his experience at the table....

semantics...

Gholimoli

Solksjaer wrote:

So the optimal way to play this hand was to go agianst his gut instincts gained from playing at the table with these lads. NO?

semantics...

No.
People suggested a fold in this hand based on all the information given.
There was no information to say “well I think if I push here there is a very good chance player A, and B will fold and C may call or fold etc “.
Had that information been available then optimal play would certainly take them in to account.
Basically in situations like this when you are bluffing and counting on your FE ,its good practice to count your odds and other variables and see what % of the time your instinct need to be correct to make the play profitable.
Some times you will see that you only need to be right 20% for it to be good and some times you may need to be right 80% .
Its not semantics

Solksjaer

Gholimoli wrote:

No.
People suggested a fold in this hand based on all the information given.
There was no information to say “well I think if I push here there is a very good chance player A, and B will fold and C may call or fold etc “.
Had that information been available then optimal play would certainly take them in to account.
Basically in situations like this when you are bluffing and counting on your FE ,its good practice to count your odds and other variables and see what % of the time your instinct need to be correct to make the play profitable.
Some times you will see that you only need to be right 20% for it to be good and some times you may need to be right 80% .
Its not semantics

My instincts tell me you are 100% correct here and I just posted hogwash. I mentioned nothing about tracking the progress of your instincts at all. (hhhm or did I?) I wish I wuz more atricula

Gholimoli

Solksjaer wrote:

My instincts tell me you are 100% correct here and I just posted hogwash. I mentioned nothing about tracking the progress of your instincts at all. (hhhm or did I?) I wish I wuz more atricula

I think i just "revert back" to "optimal" way of conducting a poker argument with you and say you are absolutely correct.

Solksjaer

Gholimoli wrote:

I think i just "revert back" to "optimal" way of conducting a poker argument with you and say you are absolutely correct.

touche!

BigCityBanker

Has this ever happened before?

Lazare

BigCityBanker wrote:

Hand 2: Live, blinds 100/200, I think we are 8 handed, I have 9k and we all have roughly the same, except FT Warren who has c.14k

Im in the SB with 10c8c, UTG folds, Lazare raises to 700 (I think the blinds have just gone up and i get the ompression that he wanted to raise more but has made an error), Warren from Full Tilt calls, Spiral calls, Smuph calls, back to me in the SB and reckon there is enuf in the middle so I call, BB calls, Pot 4,200 - 6 players, Flop K X X with two spades, it is checked all the way around, Turn X, board is very dry. It is checked to Warren who bets 1500, Spiral goes into the tank for ages and calls, folded back to me. Whats your move with 2 players inc original raiser left to act behind you?

Hand 3: Live, blinds 100/200, Table has been plpaying very conservatively and I raise from MP1 with XX to 875. Lazare comes along for the spin. Flop A 9 8, I bet 925, Lazare goes into the tank and reraises to 2k - I pretty confident he has an Ace and he has raised to find out where he is in the hand? Whats your move?

Hand 2: I raised with AdJd and got too many customers so gave up on the flop, spirals turn call made the decision a lot easier, I could see you wanted to shove, but IMO it would've been a terrible move into 4 players, Spiral would've called with a weak K there (I think he had QQ).

Hand 3: Your read was spot on. You're description of the hand is a little off though, you raised from UTG+1 to 375 (and bet 875 on flop). I think this was your biggest mistake in the hand, IMO there is absolutely no value (other than creating an image) to bluff raising from early position with blinds so low (50 100). You're depending on outplaying your opponents post flop. In such a good structured tournament, I feel there's no need to get yourself in these situations so early on, for instance, say you went with your read, and pushed, you had very little info on me, some guys would call with AJ there.
I just feel at the early stages of a good structured tournament you should be concentrating on getting value for your big hands (speculate a lot while it's cheap), and leave the big moves with no holding for when there's enough in the middle to warrant it.

bops

always go with your gut BCB
when you're running well - you generally will, but
when you're running cold you tend to second guess yourself and your balls shrink!!

a good poker playa (like me ) knows that it aint your cards that win pots

but a bad read can cost your stack in any of the above hands :eek:

Goodluck2me

these look like 3 hands you d be giving out to me if i played.