Big PLO draw vs guaranteed nuts

Bandana boy

So playing some .5-1 PLo full ring
Following hand comes up and wondering what people think is the best line here

First to speak is a rock nut peddlar when he bets pot here he 100% has the nuts but he also will lay down if his hand is counterfeited we can also assume he is not playing KJ23 for 20 bucks preflop so he likely has some of our outs covered here

Mise second

And then losing gamblor type fool

I have AhQhQd8D

Flop comes Qs 9h th

Some action preflop and pot is 60 bucks when we see a flop
Nut peddlar bets out pot 60 bucks
I have 350 behind he covers nutjob in last postion has 150 behind

Do we ever push here trying to get it all in knowing i have a great chance to win this hand and zero chance of squeezing an extra buck out of him if i hit on turn plus he will betting 180-240 on turn if he still has nuts which is a much tougher call
what if effective stacks are 600 ?

fuzzbox

Just call, you want nutjob to call too.

If he has the nuts, and will always fold when a turn scarecard comes then frequently float him with draws + bluff-outs type hands.

Does he really never pay out a single dollar more when the board pairs or the flush comes?

In my experience, the flush draw is obvious, but he might pay a little if the board pairs.

Killme00

I would reraise here because like you said he wont call if the boards pairs or a heart appears..get it in now...I actually think your draw might be ahead of his straight most of the time

Hand Pot equity
AhQhQd8d 61.40%
AKQJ 38.60%

Hand Pot equity
AhQhQd8d 57.14%
AKhJhT 42.86%

ianmc38

Ì think calling and raising are both fine. Calling might tempt the guy behind us to call as well. I dont like calling the flop and folding a blank turn, so I think I raise here.

eoghan104

I always raise here because Im not as interested enough in the gamblers smaller stack here so I dont mind him folding. If you flat call you have a tough spot on a blank turn and a call doesnt even guarantee that the gambler will play as he could have air!!! even if he does call it makes your decision on the turn even harder as the Pot will be bigger.

Its a pot raise here for me every time!

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Ì think calling and raising are both fine. Calling might tempt the guy behind us to call as well. I dont like calling the flop and folding a blank turn, so I think I raise here.

Why would you fold a blank turn?

Your draw is really big, why fold a blank turn?

fuzzbox

Really guys, why do you have the belief that its a "tough spot" on a blank turn?
Its not tough at all.

You have circa 17 outs, if he bets the pot, then you have easily enough outs to call a full pot bet.
Whats the problem?

If it goes flop: pot, call, turn blank, pot, call, and then the river pairs the board ... does he fold 100% ? No way, so to add to your plenty enough pot odds, you DO have some implied odds AND the guy behind you, if he calls/raises, will be doing you a favour.

fuzzbox

eoghan104 wrote:

I always raise here because Im not as interested enough in the gamblers smaller stack here so I dont mind him folding.

This is a .5/1 game, and the smaller stack is $150, which is 1.5 times the initial buy in.

I think it is remarkably silly for you to ignore the possibility of getting that into the mix. It never hurts you that he comes along, and it always helps you, because *YOU* have the best equity.
If he folds, no problem, you have position, pot odds, and implied odds.

DapperGent

This is a great spot to be in. I think a call to entice the loose player in is blatantly better. Also as Fuzzbox points out our equity on a blank turn is still massive enough to call a full pot from our nit in first postion.

If our nutcase comes along for the ride we have a far more profitable position than if we get our stack in against the nit now and even in our worst case scenario of nutcase folding and facing a full pot bet on a blank turn we're still in a profitable position.

We have a massive hand and a gambler behind us with 1.5 buyin stack. Why do we want to make it hard for him to stick some or all of it in?

Killme00

ianmc38 wrote:

Ì think calling and raising are both fine. Calling might tempt the guy behind us to call as well. I dont like calling the flop and folding a blank turn, so I think I raise here.

Pots Odds are in your favour to call a Pot sized bet on a blank turn..its even better if the other guys calls too...this might be a cheaper way to win the hand. I prefer raising on the flop

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Why would you fold a blank turn?

Your draw is really big, why fold a blank turn?

Good question. Maybe if I read the OP correctly I wouldnt!

Bandana boy

I genuinely believe unless he has the 2nd nut flush draw he would check fold if a flush hit or the board paired
I think our nutso friend in postion will make his decscion on his cards and not my actions so if he has two pair or a fd no matter how small it is going in here
I think a turn call is not as straight forward as it seems
Assuming our friend calls
we have up to 17 but more likely something closer to 13/14 outs if our friend plays do we really want to be calling 240BBs on the turn here ?

If we are not going to fold the turn even if we miss but he might if we go ahead ( I dont see how i can make that fold ) would we not be better playing 240BBs on the flop as opposed to the turn ?

Killme00

Bandana boy wrote:

I think our nutso friend in postion will make his decscion on his cards and not my actions so if he has two pair or a fd no matter how small it is going in here

Based on this, which i dont think you mentioned before, i would repot it right now

Flipper

I re-pot this every time. Two chances to win the hand. He probably has the nuts so calling is awful IMO with these stacks. With the 60 already in there, I'd rather get it in. By calling, you effectively have no chance of getting his tank because if a heart or a pair-up come, he'll check fold and if a blank comes, he'll pot it/all in leaving you with a no so nice pass/call (prob call as pot odds would be attractive).

Btw, if the nutjob comes in with your raise, the more the merrier.

Bandana boy

Killme00 wrote:

Based on this, which i dont think you mentioned before, i would repot it right now

yeah i am only guessing here but so far he has been willing to gamble and he is a fool i assuming he will continue to want to gamble and continue to be foolish

cardshark202

This thread was done once fuzzbox posted. What he said was perfect.

Bandana boy

Well i called as did nutjob and on a blank turn he bet 240 bills which I called
It was as i was calling 240 bills with circa 13-17 outs I said to my self i would rather be having 26-34 outs while gambling 240BBS
I still think if your draw cannot fold any missed turn then pushing the flop is best (obv exceptions would be draws that could be counterfeited)

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

This thread was done once fuzzbox posted. What he said was perfect.

There is a round of badges and flyers winging its way to you, the new president of the fuzzbox fanclub .

fuzzbox

Bandana boy wrote:

Well i called as did nutjob and on a blank turn he bet 240 bills which I called
It was as i was calling 240 bills with circa 13-17 outs I said to my self i would rather be having 26-34 outs while gambling 240BBS
I still think if your draw cannot fold any missed turn then pushing the flop is best (obv exceptions would be draws that could be counterfeited)

Tell me why.
Just cos you dont "like" calling off 240BBs into a 480BB pot on the turn?

Remember your outs have not changed since the flop, and yet you seem to be *dying* to stick 350BBs in there.