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Underfloor heating upstairs & oil boiler

  • 04-03-2007 10:56pm
    #1
    Ewan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭


    Hi There

    We have decided to go with underfloor for our new build and are debating a couple of things, if anyone has any experiece with these it would be great;
    1. We have heard that underfloor upstairs (2 storey house, not dormer) can be too warn?
    2. Does anyone have underfloor running of an oil boiler? How economical is this?


Comments

  • #2
    JosephQ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭JosephQ


    I am putting in UFH upstairs in my build with individual themostats in each of the rooms so if I want to I can turn Right down the heating to any indvidual room/area I looked into oil and found it was the expensive option. I am going for a Baxi Pellet boiler for heatmerchants it can also burn corn etc. also going to put up a couple of solar panels for summer use.:)


  • #3
    NextSteps
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭NextSteps


    I'm no expert but I understand that the thing about underfloor heating is that you can't regulate it in short bursts - like turning on the rad in the bedroom for ten minutes before you go to bed on a particularly chilly night, or heating the spare room if someone's coming over. You more or less have to set the thermostat to 18 degrees or whatever, and leave it at that all day every day. As upstairs rooms generally aren't used during the day, that can be quite a waste.
    Basically underfloor is good in somewhere you'll be spending a lot of time, like downstairs if there's someone around a lot of the day.


  • #4
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    I've had UFH for 9 years now........forget using an oil boiler. Solar/Geo if you can, or Gas. I've LPG and it's been very good.

    And, in my new house being built, it's timber frame, with both conc floors and UFH upstairs, so don't let anyone tell you that you can't.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #5
    Ewan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭Ewan


    Galwaytt,
    why not use ufh with an oil boiler...?over gas....or "over-over" priced (and unproven, in my mind) geothermal


  • #6
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    I'll agree with you about the overpriced Geo systems. At the moment anyway........call me in 10 years......!

    UFH uses only warm water, not hot. Typically around 34deg C. Oil boilers, by their very nature are on/off devices, and struggle to produce a smooth flow of water below, say, 50deg. The reason for this is oil burners can't be regulated - it's either burn, or not. It also means you need to set up a cold mixing system to bring that water down to UFH temps. This means the boiler is constantly cycling, rather than running smoothly. This is wasteful of oil, and causes premature wear in the boiler too.

    Back boilers and stoves are a similar story.

    Gas, on the other hand, can be regulated to a big burn or small burn - i.e. big flame or small flame. So, your boiler can run and produce water closer to the actual required temp for UFH. Our boiler will produce water down to 30 deg iirc..............so it stays on v.low, for longer. This is fuel efficient, gentle on the boilers and the heating system generally.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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  • #7
    ennisjim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 85 ✭✭ennisjim


    Hi, I have chosen oil-burner and UFH for my new build. I have been advised to use a 500litre buffer tank to improve efficiency/cost-effectiveness and significantly reduce the cycling of the burner/boiler.
    I am chosing oil (~€2500) burner because the initial installation is a lot cheaper than geothermal (up to €20000) or wood pellet (up to €10000 for decent system and installers ripping off the SEI grant). Hopefully the buffer tank will keep running costs down at least until I need to change to something else. I am also putting in solar but only expect this to contribute to domestic hot water between March and Oct perhaps.

    Anyone have any experience of of this kind of setup, ie. oil burner/boiler and buffer tank ?


  • #8
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    btw, my current house, LPG Gas boiler (super condensing), 2300sq ft, no immersion, no elec showers (everything off the boiler), and two fireplaces (one used a lot, one occassionally)...........total bill for the year: Eur1177.

    Servicing on Gas much easier/cleaner/faster - and bloody more reliable - than oil. For the price of the oil burner + buffer, you could easily buy a super-condensing gas boiler......

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #9
    Iompair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭Iompair


    My parents renovated their house a few years ago, added UFH on both floors. The thermostats upstairs very rarely activate due to the consistent heat the ground floor generates.

    You could probably save yourself some hassle and just have ordinay rads upstairs. Either way works though.

    I would recommend towel heaters or a basic rad in the bathrooms though, it can be a bit annoying having nowhere to hang a damp towel.:rolleyes:


  • #10
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    iompair - I did what you say originally - never again.

    For a start it complicates the system with upstairs and downstairs systems requiring different operation temps. You can still put in a single heated towel rail, and I'd never, ever, put in a bathroom without UFH - cold tiles, anyone?? Brrrrrrr

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #11
    bauderline
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 899 ✭✭✭bauderline


    From what I have read the general consensus appears to be that gas condensing boilers are the best solution for UFH if you don't go with geotherm.

    To ask the question if you a building in the sticks whats involved in getting a gas storage tank in...

    1. Who do you contact ?
    2. Are there any regulations that might be a problem ?
    3. What is such a thing likely to cost... ballpark figure....
    4. How much is a tank of gas ?

    many thanks ! baud.


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  • #12
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    try www.calor.ie

    The tank has to be located in a particular fashion - calor will give you a sketch relating to tank siting - e.g. a certain distance from house/neighbour, etc. Unless you're in a very small site (town), you'll find it no more difficult to locate than your oil tank.

    You can buy the tank, or lease it. If you buy it, you own/maintain it. If you lease it (I do), Calor manage it, and it costs about Eur65 p.a. for 10 years. This is the same cost as buying it, so no point buying it.

    If it's a new build, there used to be a discount for every new appliance you connect, e.g. hob, fire(s), dryer, boiler etc etc. This would give you a useful headstart on the gas bill.

    I'm on a budget plan, and pay a flat sum p.m. for 11mths/year. I pay Eur107 p.m. for a 2300sq ft house, w 2 x gas fires, 1 x gas boiler. No immersion and no power showers - so all my heat and dhw comes from the gas. I think this is good value, ymmv.....

    A full tank of gas is........Eur370, approx...........but see comment re: budget plan.

    Other advantage of Gas: you never run out !! On a plan, the gas co put you on a rota, and you're topped up automatically - once your usage is established, they know how often to do it, and you don't have to call them. I ran out once, but that's because I forgot to update them on the fact I'd fitted a 2nd fireplace. And that's it, in the space of 9 years.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #13
    bauderline
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 899 ✭✭✭bauderline


    galwaytt,

    you don't own shares in a gas company do you ? ;)

    Seriously though, thanks for the info, exactly what I was looking for ! I always fancied gas for cooking, so it kinda kills two birds with one stone. I assume it could be used in conjunction with geotherm as well which I think can be put in a lot cheaper than most people think...

    Also if you are only heating the water to circa 35 degrees for ufh, how does your hot water for baths / showers work then ?

    best rgs, baud.


  • #14
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    btw, just found this for siting your gas tank. A 150mm conc base is fine.

    My Vaillant boiler produces that low temp water when floors are on. When DHW is called for, that circuit opens, stat calls for more, and boiler output rises to 55 deg - I keep it below 60 deg to stop lime cracking out of the water and ruining everything..........

    I also stagger dhw timing over floor timings - i.e. DHW comes on first for, say, 20 mins to charge the cylinder and then DHW goes off, floors on, and boiler chugs at 35.....This way, my boiler gives it's full and undivided attention to whichever (one) task is in hand. To heat my 30gal ACV from cold takes 9-12 mins from cold. Loses 1 deg in 24 hours, if unused. Allegedly.........

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #15
    Ewan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭Ewan


    Galwaytt,
    did you do all the research prior to installation of a gas boiler....is it generally accepted as the most efficient system to run ufh..rather than oil..?


  • #16
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    did all the research, many years ago, I'll admit, but nothing seems to change that quickly in the building industry !!

    so, my new house is the same, but, ufh upstairs instead of rads, add solar....and take it from there. Geo too expensive at the mo.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #17
    Ewan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭Ewan


    Galwaytt,
    how do you find the ufh on the first floor..??? any problems with the upstairs being too warm at night time....after the heating has been turned off....due to the heat retention


  • #18
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Ewan, I'll tell you once it's turned on !! House not finished yet !! Look at it this way...........if it's too hot, I can just turn it off/down. OTH............:eek:

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #19
    bkbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭bkbyrne


    Guys,

    I have been reading through your threads and there seems to be some good advice on underfllor heating.
    i am running underfloor heating downstairs and radiators upstairs in a timber Frame house. There are three settings in the utility room
    1. underflor heating
    2. Water
    3. Upstairs radiators

    I have all the room stats downstairs at 18C, but now that summer is here they are all above that temp so underfloor heating isn't kicking in, but the boiler is strill firing outside from time to time even though I'm not using it for radiators or water.

    The ideal situation would be that the boiler only comes on if I want to give the water a boost. Can I stop the boiler burning and thus save oil during the summer months or is this dangerous to my underfllor heating.

    There is a seperate setting with a temp on it. I suspect this is where I stipulate what temp i want the underfloor water to be at, perhaps I should drop this right down?, it looks like its set at 30C at the moment


    Any Advice????

    tks,

    Barry


  • #20
    anon1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 96 ✭✭anon1


    UFH installers aren't installing setback timers to increase the efficiency of UFH systems.
    For instance if you were going on hols for a week but didn't want to some back to a cold house you could use the setback timer if installed to keep rooms at 16C up to the day before your return.

    If anyone has a setback timer installed or a proper thermostat connection box let us know.


  • #21
    boarduser01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68 ✭✭boarduser01


    Anon - We have got the set-back timer facility on our ufh system, the system was only commissioned last week so we haven't had a chance to test it yet though!

    I know quite a few people who have ufh downstairs and radiators upstairs, and they have all said that they regret the decision not to have ufh upstairs too rather than the radiators. The even heat of the ufh is great.

    We have only just installed our system and have put ufh both downstairs and upstairs, but we have put stats on the bedrooms both downstairs and upstairs. I will have to remember to come back later in the year to tell you if it is too hot upstairs or not!


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  • #22
    bauderline
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 899 ✭✭✭bauderline


    Folks,

    I am grave digging again..... ;)

    Galwaytt, have you completed your new house yet and how are you getting on with the UFH installation, is it working as expected ?

    What type of super condensing gas boiler did you install ?

    best rgs, baud.


  • #23
    fitzie79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 350 ✭✭fitzie79


    currently looking at what heating system to install (in tandem with solar panels which i think make sense in the longer term).

    Going to put ufh upstairs and downstairs. From reading oil doesnt work well with this (and i'm reluctant to go with oil anyway). I have read too many bad stories about the wood pellet system and am inclined to stay away from it. Has anyone else used gas with ufh? Galwaytt's posts are a couple of years old - i presume that with all the recent hikes in the cost of gas this has had a significant impact on the cost of using gas.

    The other option is geo - at a recent self build forum i was quoted about 12.5k for a system for a 2700 sq ft house. This doesnt include digging the hole for the pipes or the ufh system itself. How much would the complete geo system cost and are there any significant costs that they tend not to tell you about up front?


  • #24
    Shewhomustbe...
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 484 ✭✭Shewhomustbe...


    I was hoping to change my house to UFH but reading this thread I'm not so sure anymore.
    I was looking to get away from oil and don't fancy changing to gas. Is there no way to run a system like this off electricity?? Or was that a total newbie question!


  • #25
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Shewhomustbe... wrote: »
    Is there no way to run a system like this off electricity?? Or was that a total newbie question!
    There are dry electric systems available, these are usually used under bathroom tiles. You could always use an electric "boiler" but would be expensive to run.

    What is worrying you about UFH? I find that it works well.


  • #26
    Shewhomustbe...
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 484 ✭✭Shewhomustbe...


    http://www.warmup.ie/

    This is what I was planning on going with. Would still like to as I plan on tiling, or retiling a good bit of the house.


  • #27
    davidoco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭davidoco


    Shewhomustbe... wrote: »
    http://www.warmup.ie/

    This is what I was planning on going with. Would still like to as I plan on tiling, or retiling a good bit of the house.

    You really don't want to go there with electricity apart from say a bathroom.

    See here http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=58&docID=-1 and download the Domestic Fuel Cost Comparison and you will see that electricity is 3 times more expensive per kWh generated if you using those mats


  • #28
    sas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sas


    Deleted User wrote: »

    What is worrying you about UFH? I find that it works well.

    What are you heating the water in the pipes with? This would be my biggest concern as it seems its best paired with a heatpump. I would prefer not to pay for a HP.

    Are you on pellet, lpg or oil? What are your running costs looking like?


  • #29
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    sas wrote: »
    What are you heating the water in the pipes with? This would be my biggest concern as it seems its best paired with a heatpump. I would prefer not to pay for a HP.

    Are you on pellet, lpg or oil? What are your running costs looking like?
    I use an oil boiler to heat a thermal store (heatbank) basically a large hot water cylinder, from this I have a tap halfway up that takes hot water and passes it via a thermostatic valve that mixes in cold water (from the UFH return) to the UFH.

    The thermostats on the tank control the boiler, boiler has good long flat out burns, not short low temperature burns it would be forced to do if directly connected to the UFH.

    Longer term plans are to (when the garage is built) is to install solar panels and eventually a multi-fuel biomass boiler (woodchip/pellets, sticks, oats, straw etc).

    Hart to give any figures on running costs yet, as it would include DHW as well and the fact that we have only recently moved in.


  • #30
    fitzie79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 350 ✭✭fitzie79


    i am looking at going ufh downstairs and rads upstairs. I would like to go geothermal but think it is too expensive at the moment and therefore will probably go with a condensing oil boiler. from this thread it seems that putting a buffer tank in should work well with the ufh downstairs.

    however, as the water in the ufh is much cooler than the temperature required for the rads upstairs does this mean that the rads upstairs will require a seperate feed? If so how can this be achieved?

    Also, if at some stage down the line geothermal became a more realistic option and i installed it, would it mean that the upstairs rads would never get sufficiently hot to warm the room as the geo only outputs water at around 40deg?


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  • #31
    bauderline
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 899 ✭✭✭bauderline


    Fitzie,

    I think you are clean mad to go with oil ! Especially using UFH, I have heard too many horror stories about people going down this route and then complaining the house is way too warm and boiler is sucking diesel like there is no tomorrow.

    The price of oil is going to go up a lot in the next five years, its an unavoidable truth !

    If a reliable heat pump is installed by the right crowd you should end up very happy !

    I am 95% certain that this is the route I am going. I have a 5800 sq ft house to heat and I don't fancy using oil to do it.

    Note that good zoning and stats are key to a good HP/UFH install...

    My 2 cents..

    baud.


  • #32
    conor2949
    Closed Accounts Posts: 57 ✭✭conor2949


    I've been following this post with great interest.

    The gas boiler really interests me but the posts are quite old. i'd be really interested to know what the gas cost would be now.

    I've ruled out geothermal. way too much of an initial investment, not a very long guarantee over heat pump, not a very proven technology and i've had too many people advise me against after they'd installed it.

    Is Galwaytt still around here these days?


  • #33
    bauderline
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 899 ✭✭✭bauderline


    Yes,

    he has been posting in a couple of recent threads !

    send him a pm !

    Conor, can you elaborate on what gripe people advising against it had...

    baud.


  • #34
    finbarrk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,494 ✭✭✭finbarrk


    Is there anyone on here that has a bad experience with a geothermal system?


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