A question of styles? Tourney Hand

LuckyLloyd

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DEmeant0r

I would just fold, although you are given the correct odds to chase that flush, I just wouldn't, if you don't hit it, you would have just given the pot ~ 1/4 of your chip stack on a drawing hand. So it's a fold for me.

Hitman Actual

Yikes. Nasty spot, but then again I'm very hungover, so maybe it's not as bad as it seems. The fact that you're not sure how live your outs are is a worry here, and could turn what appears to be a +CEV spot into a negative one. But I think if you're happy to get the money in if your draw comes in on the river, then pushing now is much better than calling to embrace what little folding equity you have (I don't think you have much). You might even fold out some better flush draws, which is obviously good.

But I'm really not sure how profitable this is should the money go in. I've a feeling it's very marginal. Fold may be better.

Also, I know you missed your flop bet, but why not CRAI when it gets back to you on the flop.

sikes

i would be pushing it in on the flop, if you are called you are never in bad shape, theres nearly 2k out there to be picked up.

Its unlikely that AA, QQ are out there and 77 is very unlikely considering our hand.

I would fold the turn, you only have bottom pair and a draw to the non nut flush. This is a perfect example of why I hate these hands from the SB, they suck.

BigCityBanker

Lloyd,

Is this the hand after which it finished you slammed the table, stormed from your chair complaining and proceeded to nearly take the door off the hinges on the way out through it?

You do realise that most of the card room was looking at you wondering wtf was up?

El Stuntman

fold preflop said the rock from rocksville

I hate everything about this hand tbh, sikes is spot on

LuckyLloyd

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BigCityBanker

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Nope - that was a different hand. I really don't give a fcuk whether other people were watching or not.

Well if this is the case i really think your attitude is all wrong. I recall you posting on here before that you were trying to address this side of your game.. Your response is indicitive that you are not trying to rectify it and that it is not of concern for you and further indicitive that your previous posts were but just window dressing to assist is smoothing responses to your actions at the table. This reflects pooly on you.

Part of being a good winner is also being a good loser.

LuckyLloyd

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hf4z6sqo7vjngi

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Nope - that was a different hand. I really don't give a fcuk whether other people were watching or not.

Lloyd everyone knows your a top class player but these antics do you no good, you need to take these situations on the chin and move on and not throw the rattler out of the pram.
I have no doubt these frustrations you place on yourself affect your game and decision making in the long run? just my thoughts not having a go

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

BTW it is a fold, a check raise on the flop might have taken it down although if Conor is calling playing/most hands you may have lost more if he has a big piece of it and you do not hit

phantom_lord

clear fold pf.

I'd lead the flop, otherwise I'm folding.

Turn is a fold I think.

I really don't think you should be in this spot.

your hand is super obvious too btw.


EDIT: the more I think about this hand the more I hate it.

eggie

I fold this pre flop out of position against 2 aggressive players like this. You have a very weak hand that has very high reverse implied odds, and even if you get a decent flop (which you did) you could still be very far behind. Its not the fact that pre flop odds may say call, its the fact that we could win little and lose a lot, not knowing where we really stand post flop.

Conor could be floating, but i think this is unlikely against 2 players or he is drawing like you (to a bigger draw). With a made hand here i think he is gonna make the drawers pay for it, especially on the turn, which he doesnt. If he is drawing and misses then he can still turn it into a floating exercise at the first sign of weakess.

What is your plans for the river when you miss? Check/fold? push? What you think they have? Will a push win it on the turn? Its a very precarious situation to be in. I think at this stage they have you on a draw, as you would probably raise a made hand on the flop, even if slowplaying a big pair which hit -its too risky not too even against LAG's.

As played I call the flop, fold the turn - doesnt smell good to me. Results will not affect my decision on this. Against players like this, your gut feeling and reads are crucial (which cannot be put in text format and explained to posters on a forum, its instinctive i guess.)

You still have a decent stack relative to the blinds and can find better spots, with better holdings in position to reap rewards from their style of play.

If its the blonde hair american dude with the earphones from full tilt, he is agressive and a weakness he has is not knowing when someone is not going to fold even if he keeps betting in to them (more so heads up). This is a good flop for a combo draw (KJc, etc) which kills your hand.

Maybe i'm a nit, lol, but i fold. Leading or Check/Pushing the flopare better options (maximising your folding equity), check calling telegraphs your hand imo.

kebabfest

Clear Fold. The full tilt American lad has a big hand.
He knows he is playing with a maniac and still happy to bet.
Interesting hand alright, but if you bet the flop you'll lose more.
You have enough chips to let it go.

mdwexford

i flat call the turn bet
5.5k with the blinds so small is still a very playable stack if you miss

LuckyLloyd

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eggie

The worst thing about this hand is you dont know where you stand, is he betting A rag planning to fold to a flushing board or betting a higher flush draw? Is Connor calling with a big draw or planning on call/ fold to the flush board if it hits? The heavy set american dude (if its him) with glasses would bet this way with Ax and fold to a flushed board, but what about Connor?

Your hand looks pretty transparent now and a push on the turn would prob be called, check calling is a viable option but what do you do to a push on a rivered club?

Lots of ifs and buts here, messy situation to be in which could potentially cost you your stack, could have a big decision ahead, whats your own thoughts on these guys at this point?

Solksjaer

One thing that would make me baulk, is someone who sighs whilst betting.:eek:
A fold here as your potential flush is far from the nut flush so even hitting doesn't guarantee you the pot. ....get out of dodge, it has fishy danger everywhere...





ps
If you ever find a cure for bad beat ranting let me know, the less perfect amongst us also need the cure. I know the feeling when bad beats stack up in a row HOWEVER, you did get a good run in the GJP, I'll take a run of bad beats to take one of those babies down.....

Hectorjelly

I hate nearly all the advice in this thread, folding preflop is totally out of the question. I would bet the flop, but if I checked I would probably raise, I dont really like calling because you are out of position, allthough i far prefer a call there to a fold. You have a very strong hand and your pot equity is too great to just pass up. On the turn your position is a lot worse, folding is ok here, raising is good if you think your hand isnt going to be transparent. Basically if you think they are looking you up with an ace here, then fold. If not push.

RoundTower

I would raise the flop pretty big, I think the original check is OK though. On the turn I think you should fold though in practice I tend to overplay this hand here.

cardshark202

I would bet 3 bet the flop all in, if not a check-raise flop shove turn is ok. As played I think folding the turn is best now. If you shove now the players will be confused and when you do that in a live game you will usually get called.

LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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Hectorjelly

Is this a joke lloyd! Theres 7k in there, you raise 1k and expect conor to fold a draw?

LuckyLloyd

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Hectorjelly

I dont think its that simple, he clearly didnt have a draw so you would of been called, your min raise just serves to make the pot nice and big so he can talk himself into calling with an ace.

What are you going to do if a club falls, check fold? Your play does not look like a draw so if you check he may well push as a bluff. I just think your minraise here can create loads of horrible spots for you.

I think this hand has two huge problems, firstly putting people on an exact hand and risking everything on that read. Theres no way conor had a draw here unless he got so confused he folded by accident, and secondly a check minraise on the turn here with any holding whatsover is horrible, your bloating the pot out of position with a horrible decision on a lot of rivers.

LuckyLloyd

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Daithio

Damn HectoryJelly and RoundTower! Nothing much new to add. I think with your image, which is usually quite solid, you should play the flop alot more aggressively. I like the check raise here because you can be almost certain you'll get a bet out of one of the lads. Not crazy on the lead, because you're in a tricky enough position with those stack sizes the times you get reraised. If you check/ raise you'll get a fold alot of the time, if they call you can probably get them off it on later streets/ hit your draw.

As played I fold the turn, but I don't like the spot you got yourself into.

As regards your attitude when you take a beat Lloyd, I think you do need to do some work on that. You're normally very calm/ relaxed at the table, when I first saw you take a beat I was in shock. It's not very cool, just bite your lip til you get out of the door/ get home and then kick the ****e out of the dog or whatever. I can understand that you don't care what other people think, but for your own sake it can't be helping your game. Whenever I see somebody take a beat that way I instantly peg them as a tilt head who can't mentally handle the game, and I normally go after them as a result. I'm sure alot of people think this about you after seeing how you react in some spots, and that can't be a good thing.

Hectorjelly

ive just reported you to the ISPCA Dathio

LuckyLloyd

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ianmc38

cardshark202 wrote:

I would bet 3 bet the flop all in, if not a check-raise flop shove turn is ok. As played I think folding the turn is best now.

Exactly my line.

Solksjaer

I was discussing this very topic last month with a guy I know, we were actually discussing John McEnroe, after I read read his autobio, excellent,. (my fav player of all time) and how he used to rant and rage every so often on the court..then we moved on to poker, Now there is a train of thought that stifling anger altogether is not good for the health and little bursts or rants do in fact let out that stress. EG Phil Helmut, he constantly snipes and rants and never internalises his emotions. What Helmut AND McEnroe have in common is that both are proven winners (love em or hate em). So does an outburst really effect your game? And if you were a poker or tennis player, would you go after Helmut or McEnroe in tournaments? Just a thought!

What I do think is unhealthy is stifling the emotion up for hours on end and then finally exploding in a fit of rage, kicking over tables of fish as you leave the aquarium, that can lead to plenty of trouble. I'm all for people behaving like a flock of rule following sheep (not) but there will always be different types of characters in the game and unless they are breaking any particular rule, who are we to tell them how to react or conduct themselves. When I see someone rant, I don't really look on them as any worse than the speech playing wise ass's who try to tell you how to play the game. Each to their own I say.

Just my 2 cents! (I gave you a dollar so I want 98 cents back)

smurph

Lloyd,
I really think that you will either have to get used to bad beats, or take a break for a while. You moved to my table and immediately started telling the table about your 80 20 losses over the last month or so. The thing is it happens to every poker player, we've all had the horrible beats at the worst time in a tournament, either get over it and move on or take a break. You were completely on edge.

Then this hand happens, a young guy goes all in (can't remember the amount but he was short stacked) you make a good call.

You have AhJh
He has Qs10s
So your a 60 40 for the pot, but the cruel Q comes on the river, the you stomp out, while I think ripping something off the notice board. If everyone started doing that we would be playing cards in a padded room ffs.

Then you come back and immediately shout at me that "its not funny you know", come on if you know anything about me its that I have a stupid smile on my face most of the time, and to be honost your reaction wasn't anything to be smiling at.

Take a look at Kebabfest, he got the worst bad beat ive witnessed live against Martin, when he fills his House of Aces over Jacks and Martin fills the Royal Flush. What would you have done if that happened to you?

Your a nice bloke, who has a good poker mind, and a great game about you, but if you continue the way you are people are not going to remember any part of your game except the bad tempered part. My 2 cents anyway. I know you probably don't give a f*ck about what people think but a good poker player will use that part of your game against you.

LuckyLloyd

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smurph

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Thats a ridiculous accusation, I didn't rip anything off a notice board. FFS. I'm not some sort of violent version of the Hulk. I didn't "shout" at you either Collette. Come on now.

I would be in shock if something like that happened. It's statistically improbable to say the very least.


In any case, I appreciate your comments and advice - and those of Noel, Dave, Jacky and Willie.

Apologies for that, but that's what I heard happened, but I should have known that you take 2nd hand recollection of events with a pinch of salt.

Look Lloyd I hope you don't take this thread as a "Lloyd bashing thread", it's not mean't to be that, it was just an observation. You actually looked like you weren't enjoying playing cards at all on Saturday. I know you got knocked out after 9 hours with zero return, but keep plugging away, tournaments like the SE are brillant training for the irish Open weekend, which will be the marathon of all marathon events.

Once again apologies for the notice board comment, and i'll buy you a dirty big pint of guinness before the next game. May your 80 20's hold up (unless of course their against me:D )

ianmc38

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Thats a ridiculous accusation, I didn't rip anything off a notice board. FFS. I'm not some sort of violent version of the Hulk.

TBH i'm not sure. Your GJP does make you look a bit more like a friendly hulk in fairness

Goodluck2me

lol at the photo. v funny.

sikes

Hectorjelly wrote:

I hate nearly all the advice in this thread, folding preflop is totally out of the question. I would bet the flop, but if I checked I would probably raise, I dont really like calling because you are out of position, allthough i far prefer a call there to a fold. You have a very strong hand and your pot equity is too great to just pass up. On the turn your position is a lot worse, folding is ok here, raising is good if you think your hand isnt going to be transparent. Basically if you think they are looking you up with an ace here, then fold. If not push.

I disagree about folding pre-flop being totally out of the question. I think that as our stack gets bigger in this situation a fold becomes much more reasonable. Maybe I am thinking about the SB very wrong, but we shouldn't be getting into multiple street poker from the SB with a drawing hand, especially one as weak as 74s. The times we are offered pot odds to chase, we are in a multi-way pot, so when we hit, its as clear as day theres a flush out there. So it has huge reverse implied odds, especially when we are deep. Also, continuing on the turn with a semi bluff against multiple players is usually -EV.

In my own mind i think we got very lucky in this hand. We got a flop that gives us good equity and we have a bet and a call in front of us, so our risk/reward with a push is much better. I'm not great at explaining what I am thinking, but calling this hand when we have 5k behind is more profitable that with 7.5k behind. When we push with the 5k we have the same about of FE however our risk/reward is much better for us then when we push with our 7.5k stack.

I also think that leading into that flop is worse than checking. With aggressive players in the pot and with that board, i think its highly likely we are going to get a bet from someone and we can end the hand there.

I still prob call this pre-flop, but its very marginal.

Hectorjelly

You have it exactly the wrong way around, the deeper the stacks the more valuable the hand becomes. Thats because the vast majority of the time you will flop nothing, or a worthless pair. You are calling 1/100th of your stack of preflop.

You are right about the stacksizes being better for a check raise with 5k than 7k, but thats only one situation that can come up. And its not a line that I think is paticularly good anyway, slightly better than check calling though. For almost any other situation the bigger the stacks the better.

To be honest I only think its marginal if you play badly after the flop and tend to make all sorts of mistakes post flop. All of the sentances you used, like being given odds to chase, indicate you are going to play the hands the wrong way anyway. Check calling a bet after the flop out of position with a 7 hi flush draw is normally going to be bad yes, but that doesnt mean calling preflop is bad.

I dont think I need to add a caveat to any advice I give that its only going to be profitable if you play the rest of the hand well and you tend to play better than your opponents.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

ianmc38 wrote:

TBH i'm not sure. Your GJP does make you look a bit more like a friendly hulk in fairness

ian you have far to much time on your hands:)

Daithio

Personally I think folding preflop here is absolutely terrible. The stacks are shallow when compared with a cash game, but they're plenty deep to make this a profitable play. If you hit here you have a relatively good chance of getting paid off for your entire stack, and if you play it right post flop on a flop like this you have massive folding equity with alot of outs.

If you're inclined to fold here preflop I think it's very very unlikely you'll ever succeed in tournaments.

Hitman Actual

Hectorjelly wrote:

I hate nearly all the advice in this thread, folding preflop is totally out of the question. I would bet the flop, but if I checked I would probably raise, I dont really like calling because you are out of position, allthough i far prefer a call there to a fold. You have a very strong hand and your pot equity is too great to just pass up. On the turn your position is a lot worse, folding is ok here, raising is good if you think your hand isnt going to be transparent. Basically if you think they are looking you up with an ace here, then fold. If not push.

Just one thing on this: is getting looked up by an Ace here really so bad? I would have thought that getting it in against a one-pair hand would be profitable here with these stacks/pot size. Not by much, but profitable all the same.

Hectorjelly

your equity is much less on the turn

sikes

HJ: I don't see how this hand goes up in value when we are OOP in a multiway limped pot and the stacks are larger. We are playing multiple streets, semi bluffing on each street without any clear indication of how that street helped the player(s) in the pot. If we hit the turn, and we are heads up then this can be profitable, but with 2 or more oppoents we aren't getting paid enough when the flush hits. Generally people dont play for stacks in multiway limped pots as anyone can have anything, and the fact that the pot is tiny in relation to the stacks.

The value of these hands are when we are in position, when we can control free cards, semi-bluff and control pot size all of which we are not in control of from the SB.

Daithio wrote:

Personally I think folding preflop here is absolutely terrible. The stacks are shallow when compared with a cash game, but they're plenty deep to make this a profitable play. If you hit here you have a relatively good chance of getting paid off for your entire stack, and if you play it right post flop on a flop like this you have massive folding equity with alot of outs.

If you're inclined to fold here preflop I think it's very very unlikely you'll ever succeed in tournaments.

This is exactly my point. The right post flop play as you say is to use our folding equity and our outs to create this profitable situation by jamming the flop. However as our stack size increases our risk/reward is worse and can find better situations to get into. In the hand in question, a 7.5k is a very marginal stack size for this line and we got lucky that we had a caller to the bet on the flop to make it profitable.

Hitman Actual

Hectorjelly wrote:

your equity is much less on the turn

I know, from about 50/50 on the flop to about 2/1 on the turn. Anyway, I just did a quick calc in my head, so I'm probably off anyway.

Hectorjelly

sikes wrote:

HJ: I don't see how this hand goes up in value when we are OOP in a multiway limped pot and the stacks are larger. We are playing multiple streets, semi bluffing on each street without any clear indication of how that street helped the player(s) in the pot. If we hit the turn, and we are heads up then this can be profitable, but with 2 or more oppoents we aren't getting paid enough when the flush hits. Generally people dont play for stacks in multiway limped pots as anyone can have anything, and the fact that the pot is tiny in relation to the stacks.

The value of these hands are when we are in position, when we can control free cards, semi-bluff and control pot size all of which we are not in control of from the SB.



This is exactly my point. The right post flop play as you say is to use our folding equity and our outs to create this profitable situation by jamming the flop. However as our stack size increases our risk/reward is worse and can find better situations to get into. In the hand in question, a 7.5k is a very marginal stack size for this line and we got lucky that we had a caller to the bet on the flop to make it profitable.

Sikes I dont agree with you at all, the greater the stacks the more opportunity to use the skill advantage I enjoy. I would prefer to be in position, but its still profitable for me to call 1/100 of my stack here.

You arguments dont seem to make any sense to me, just because you flop a flush draw doesnt mean you have to play it. You are not forced into it, and I would often just check fold it based on a number of factors. You can call the 50 preflop and then just throw it away if you dont think its going to be profitable after the flop. 74 can make other hands as well, not just flushes. This is a live low(ish) stakes tournament in dublin. People always play for stacks!

RoundTower

I don't think folding this preflop is out of the question or terrible or anything, I fold in this kind of spot online from time to time though not usually live because players are worse. Anyone who thinks it's a super clear call: what if you have 63s? 73s? What if you are on the button?

Hectorjelly

I would complete all those hands in the sb after a few limpers, and limp the better ones on the button. Certainly 75s

sikes

Hectorjelly wrote:

Sikes I dont agree with you at all, the greater the stacks the more opportunity to use the skill advantage I enjoy. I would prefer to be in position, but its still profitable for me to call 1/100 of my stack here.

Ok, this is were we are obviously getting wires crossed. In the games I play online, my skill advantage would be reduced massively by playing OOP in this scanario, being deep stacked. If we do have a big edge over the majority of the table then i suppose the effect of being OOP is reduced.