Geothermal Heating

Patrick07

Hi Everyone,

Im a new user but have been reading these threads for a while. I am building a 1600 sq ft house and have gone with geothermal heating. The heatpump is a heliotherm Heatpump (Should be installed within the next two weeks) supplied by a company called climate control. I have found them to be very professional and helpful.
My question is has anybody had this installed and if so how are you finding it?? With regards to electricity consumption and overall effectivness. It will also be supplying my hot water.

thanks.

barry75

Hi Patrick,
I am also going the same route as yourself with climate control,Going for the heilotherm geo pump and the underfloor heating.Hope to get it installed next week or so as well.Brian had showed me around a house where he installed the system in castlebar,Found the guy very helpful.I would be also interested in hearing from people who has installed this system.

Patrick07

Hi barry,

What kind of a screed did you use?? I went with a concrete screed with 10mm stone chips in it. Are you using this for your hot water system also? and have you any backup put in?

thanks.

barry75

Hi Patrick
Ya i am also going to be using this for hot water,havent got the ufh pipes put down yet,just about to tackle the floor insulation in the next day or so.Putting down 50 mm xtratherm.Brian told me about the screed with the 10 mm stone chip alright.As i was going with a liquid screed for the upstairs due to the weight of the screed,He said that this liquid screed dosnt hold on to the heat too well,as it heats up too quickly and cools down quick.Did you do the screeding yourself ?I have no back up system in place,except only an open fire in the living room!

Patrick07

I have the screed put in and also put it upstairs. It took the weight no problem although most of my rooms not too big so had good support from the walls below. I got a guy from mayo actually to pump it in. he did a very good job and had good guys working with him to set the levels. If you like i can give you his number??
also have only an open fire in living room.
Lets hope it works out ok!!

barry75

That would be great if you could pass on this number,where abouts in Mayo is he?

Patrick07

The name of the company is Abrodella and he is based in shrule. His name is Pete Reilly.His mobile number is 0872414012.
I found them very good and absolutley no problems at all.

barry75

i have heard of these guys not too far away from where i live,Thanks for that Patrick.What height of a screed did ya go with upstairs?I have to keep it to around 45 mm,due to the height of door frames as it wasnt factored in.The timber frame company didnt realise i was installing ufh upstairs

Patrick07

I went with about 50mm upstairs and like you the doorframes were a problem for me also. blocklayer did not allow enough for the final floor level. but anyways at least its not too low as to cause major problems.

barry75

Just talking to Pete there,he was saying a min of 75 mm screed as brian was saying that the insulation and pipes are 25mm this would be 100mm total.50mm would be a lot better giving a total of 75 mm.U had no problems with the 50mm?

Patrick07

Had no problems. it did not crack or anything like that. For downstairs i had 75mm alright. The better the covering really the more heat can be stored. Would 50mm cause much problems for your door frame heights??

Qwerty?

Patrick07 wrote:

Hi Everyone,

My question is has anybody had this installed and if so how are you finding it?? With regards to electricity consumption and overall effectivness. It will also be supplying my hot water.

thanks.

Hi Guys, I have Geothermal installed for over a year now in a 3500sq foot house, providing UFH for both floors and DHW. Last years heating bill was just over the €900 mark. All in all, delighted with our decision to put it in. Highly recommend it to anyone building.

Best of luck with your installations,

Q?

barry75

I would say 50mm screed would work out fine with the door frame heights.Did they get your house done in one day.

barry75

900 euro seems good for the years heating bill Qwerty,Did you insulate to a high standard?I seem to have a good few rolls of fibreglass left over is it best to just put the extra up in the attic?Have 450mm up there already.

Patrick07

Hi barry,

Ya they finished it in one day although he had a couple of guys that were there until 8 o clock the following morning. They waited on to power float the floor. They stayed through the night (and it was not so warm) to keep working on it. But thats all part of the service.

Hi Qwerty,

Is your house timber framed or Cavity block? Good to hear your not regretting it and its working out well. what temperature does your water get up to by the way??

paulocon

Very interesting to hear from somone who has gone down this route - let us know how it all goes for you....

Qwerty?

Patrick07 wrote:

Hi Qwerty,

Is your house timber framed or Cavity block? Good to hear your not regretting it and its working out well. what temperature does your water get up to by the way??

Our house is a Cavity Block with hollowcore build and well insulated. The hot water is maintained at around 50 degrees. More than hot enough for domestic use, you just won't need to mix it with 50% cold to get a usable temperature as you would with oil or pellet boilers.

Barry, if you have 450mm already in the attic, I'd say you are more than alright, but I suppose if the company you bought the fibreglass off won't take it back, you might as well roll it out, but wouldn't think it will make any difference.

yop

We went with CC and found Brian spot on, Barry u could actually have visited our house, Brian showed a couple of people around it while we were building,

We are very happy with the HP and have no issues with the heating what so ever, I did the UFH myself and put a screed upstairs on OSB between battens.

Good luck with it

galwaytt

Qwerty - currently looking at providing for Geothermal - can you tell me the make/model/size of pump?

Reason I ask is that the ESB want to know input loading of the pump, for connection purposes.

TIA,

yop

Galwaytt - We got a standard 12kVA connectgon for ours, even though a friend of ours was told by the supplier to put in a 16kva connection.
IT may depend on whether or not u are using electric showers or not but that is only my theory

galwaytt

yop - and qwerty - thanks for that info.

I have no elec showers or immersion, so am going with std 12Kva connection.

Qwerty?

galwaytt wrote:

yop - and qwerty - thanks for that info.

I have no elec showers or immersion, so am going with std 12Kva connection.

We have no electric showers either, but your HWC will have an immersion, not that you will need it.:D

We applied for the enhanced supply (16KVA), but have never got it afaik.
They say we don't need it as we are only 200m from a 3 phase line but our lights do dim for a split second when the Heatpump comes on... so I think we do need it.

ESB have put a voltage meter in our house for a few weeks, came and took it out and never got back to me.

BTW I found those figures you were looking for GalwayTT, when the heatpump comes on it draws 25amps, and then when running is drawing 14.1 amps, if thats of any help to you.

galwaytt

Thanks for that Qwerty - I'm 29m from the ESB pole.

Maybe my HWC will have one, but I wouldn't be one to connect it !! I've managed 9 years without one so far!

Patrick07

Hi guys,

Has anyone here looked into running a heatpump from a wind turbine?? How much power would you need and is it even fully possible. Also does anyone have any idea how much they cost.

finbarrk

Hi I have just come across this thread and I was wondering does anyone have a bad experience with this heating system, I am thinking of putting it into a new house that I will be building later on in the year, Thanks.

feorais

Nice to see people becoming more adventurous!I built 7 years ago, a bungalow of 1800 sq. ft. I used the Roadstone Safewarm block externally, with underfloor heating on top of a 50 mm Polyurethane board. I insulated the external walls then with 12.5 plasterboard on 50 mm Polyurethane board, a Kingspan product. I put 10 inches of fibreglass in the attic.We use approx. 850 litres of kerosene a year, only two of us so we are selective where we heat and have programmable stats in each room. With our insulation we only need to run the heating about 3 hours a day in the colder days, and we tailor it to suit the weather and the temperature inside the house. Anyone not using underfloor heating is missing out, it is extremely comfortable and the house holds the heat far longer than one would expect. If we were going again, we would use even more insulation and triple glazing would be a must. Even with the special double glazed U Glass from Pilkingtons, you need to have heavy curtains closed over in the winter, cuts down on heat loss and makes the house cosier.

Chimpster

Qwerty? wrote:

The hot water is maintained at around 50 degrees. More than hot enough for domestic use, you just won't need to mix it with 50% cold to get a usable temperature as you would with oil or pellet boilers.

Hi Qwerty,

Surely your hot water even at 50 degrees is still being mixed? I thought UFH runs at around 35 degrees?

I have a Kedco Wood Pellet Boiler on 24x7 producing DHW and water for UFH @ 50 degrees and the water still has to be mixed at the manifolds.

I have to say I am delighted with the UFH, a nice even heat spread through out the house and my pellet use is absolutely minimal. I am burning nothing...

Qwerty?

Sorry, thats for the HWC.
The UFH runs at 20-35, depending on the outside temp.

billy_beckham

Qwerty how have you your ufh set-up, ie how long per day is the water circulating through the floor?

anon1

Alot of the discussion on this forum about UFH has dealt with the euro cost of running installed UFH systems. However, an installer can make a bad job of installing the UFH system and the cost still be relatively low if the house happens to be insulated very well as adopters of UFH usually have.

Can we create a sticky where best practice methods of UFH are posted and debated? This would include reviews of the various heat pumps e.g. IVF, NIBE, Helio.

The wiring I've seen of the thermostats back to connect with the manifold actuators didn't using the neat wiring centres that are available. A grey area between electricians and UFH installers.

Do heatpumps really try to optimise the use of night rate electricity as some installers claim. I can't see how they can if thermostats are going to limit the air temperature increase in a room. Are any installers using intelligent thermostats or control systems that allow setback timing?

Beware of installer putting in a heatpump and not commissioning it straight away to be regulated by room thermostats and outside thermometers. You will have a huge first ESB bill.

If the upstairs of house are in effect similar to timberframe houses with quick heat up response times, why add the thermal mass of screed? Would it be better to let the UFH run at night when it is needed? You might have more control over temperature.

anon1

Alot of the discussion on this forum about UFH has dealt with the euro cost of running installed UFH systems. However, an installer can make a bad job of installing the UFH system and the cost still be relatively low if the house happens to be insulated very well as adopters of UFH usually have.

Can we create a sticky where best practice methods of UFH are posted and debated? This would include reviews of the various heat pumps e.g. IVF, NIBE, Helio.

The wiring I've seen of the thermostats back to connect with the manifold actuators didn't using the neat wiring centres that are available. A grey area between electricians and UFH installers.

Do heatpumps really try to optimise the use of night rate electricity as some installers claim. I can't see how they can if thermostats are going to limit the air temperature increase in a room. Are any installers using intelligent thermostats or control systems that allow setback timing?

Beware of installer putting in a heatpump and not commissioning it straight away to be regulated by room thermostats and outside thermometers. You will have a huge first ESB bill.

If the upstairs of house are in effect similar to timberframe houses with quick heat up response times, why add the thermal mass of screed? Would it be better to let the UFH run at night when it is needed? You might have more control over temperature.

galwaytt

anon1 - good points, all.

I agree about the electrician/ufh/plumber 'interface'..........definately needs major improvement.......

finbarrk

Would it be better to let the company that is fitting the geothermal system fit the ufh as well? Any recommendations for the Clare / Limereick area.

yop

Dunstar down your region are good.

Getting same company to do both is not really necessary, at the end of the day there will be a flow and return from your cylinder (which is feed by the geo) which feeds the manifolds, your plumber will actually put that in place.

jasgrif11

I also found Ashgrove engineering quiet good aswell. They are based in Kanturk and they installed both my UFH and Nibe heat pump

Do-more

anon1 wrote:

This would include reviews of the various heat pumps e.g. IVF, NIBE, Helio.

:eek: IVT

Qwerty?

billy_beckham wrote:

Qwerty how have you your ufh set-up, ie how long per day is the water circulating through the floor?

It's circulating 24/7 if the Zone is open the stats control that. Obviously the heat pump only comes on a few hours during the day and night as needed.

also as Anon1 said

Anon1 wrote:

Do heatpumps really try to optimise the use of night rate electricity as some installers claim. I can't see how they can if thermostats are going to limit the air temperature increase in a room.

I agree totally, whats the point in restricting the heating to night rate, when you need it in the evening, surely the heating will work more efficently if it maintains a constant temp in the house 24/7.

martin-sligo

Hello all, great reading about your experiences with this technology. I would appreciate any comments on the suitability of this way of heating in stone buildings. I am renovating a traditional Irish long house, built from cut stone, and would like to have uhf to minimise damp etc by providing a constant low level heat input, possibly with solar for water heating, or can I use the geothermal for hot water too ?

Id also heard that the specs for these systems are for Scandinavian countries and might not meet these in an Irish climate ?

Any recommendations for contractors in west sligo / north mayo appreciated.

Regards
Martin

Wacked

I got a NIbe 1240 geothermal system installed last year. My house is new, about 3000 sq ft and well insulated, but my esb bill for nov and dec was €800. I have the thermostats set at about 20C.

Nearly all of the rooms have thermostats. Is it more efficient to have just one or two thermostats for the whole house? Obviously if just one room is demanding heat then the pump is working.

Does anyone know of a way to make the water only heat at night on this system? My night usage by the system seems very low.

Cheers

Wacked

Longboard

Hi Wacked.
To confirm the draw is from the heat pump, a cost meter could be fitted to pumps mains supply.

How is the house zoned? (Space/DHW). Are these zones just temperature controlled (thermostats) or is there a time clock fitted as well? A time clock would be responsible for ensuring the system would run more at night. If the time cock is split into zones then it would be possible to "make the water only heat at night"

Do you have UFH or rads fitted (both)?

Wacked

There are stats in the bedrooms and one in hall, living room, kitchen. There are two rooms upstairs. These have radiators and no stats. The stats each have a very simple time clock which can set a lower temp for a particular period. The system itself doesn't have a time clock and isn't seperated. The manual says that the system prioritises water heating when it is required. It seems quite stupid that it doesn't just heat water at night as there is a 300L tank.

On a different note, is it difficult to integrate a solar collector system into this sort of setup?

Longboard

The hot water system probably runs off a stat built into the tank n tank setup. If there is no time control on the display on the pump itself then I'd imagine that it runs every time the temperature in the 160l DHW tank drops below the setpoint.

These systems also use electrical heating elements (cartridges) to boost the KW output (and consumption) of the system by 6KW (single phase) during times of peak demand. Depending on the system you have, the normal consumption when running on geothermal alone is claimed to be between 1 - 2.5KW. When the element comes on, the consumption jumps to 7 - 8.5kw (at full capacity, This could be higher if you purchased a 3 phase system) Could the element be running more than it should?

http://www.nibe.co.uk/NIBE-Heat-Pumps/Ground-source-heat-pumps/Product-range/FIGHTER-1240/

The bad news is it looks like a tank in tank setup. Normally when fitting solar a dual coil or combination tank is used where there is an additional coil for the solar collector to be plumbed in. With a tank in tank, an extra solar coil is usually not fitted as this requires the manifacturer to either plumb the solar coil down from the top (less space for the anode (unless s/s), mains water in & DHW out connections) or make life difficult and try to plumb it through 2 tank walls to get to the inner dhw tank.

Try going back to your supplier or NIBE and enquire about what setup/add-ons they would propose? Also talk to a solar supplier to see what they recomend. They might say an extra dhw tank with solar coil is required or to plumb in with a plate exchanger on the mains feed into the heat pump.

(sorry about the bad spelling)

Wacked

Thanks for all the advice Longboard. I don't have space for another tank so I think i will leave it and try improve efficiency by better use of the thermostats timing feature.

Cheers