Dissection

Den_M

I've been listening to Storm of the Lights Bane and the Somberlain for the last while now and rate both very highly. Jon Nödveid's vocals are some of the best I've heard in black/extreme/blackened death metal. I'm sure some of you are aware of the bands controversial past, but for those that don't :

The bands page on Wikipedia

For those that are lazy : To cut a long story short, the band were from Gothenburg and together with at The Gates, were largely responsible for creating the scene and the sound that has grown there since. Jon Nödveidt, singer/guitarist/song writer, was convicted for his part in the murder of an homosexual Algerian man in 1997 and served 8 years in jail. When released he reformed the band, replacing all previous members with new musicians whose satanic beliefs and principals were like his.

The band released Reinkaos in 2006 and announced they were to split up at the end of the tour for it. In August of last year Jon committed suicide within a circle of candles, a satanic grimoire open beside him.

What do you think of the band, their music, past and beliefs? Opinions on the net seem to be either 'amazing band' or 'Jon was a scumbag'.

neGev

Average band at best. Storm of the Light's Bane / Where Dead Angels Lie is decent, but I can't stand any of the rest of their output. Reinkaos in particular is just woeful.
I should probably point out that I think Nodveid is a moron too.

Alucard II

no strong feelings either way toward Dissection, and Nodveidt was a run of the mill religious nut. i guess all you can say was that at least he died happy.

neGev

Dunno how he could die happy after hearing the muck that was Reinkaos

Alucard II

neGev 1
Nodveidt 0

Den_M

I thought Reinkaos was pretty good, it didn't measure up to what the band did before but it stands on its own pretty well. Bought their 'Rebirth of Dissection' live dvd and they put on a good show. Did anyone catch them in Whelans in December 04?

Pugsley

Reinkaos was hillarious, cant help but love it, its so just disgustingly cheesey

Karl Hungus

As far as Black Metal goes, I've always thought that Dissection were one of the best bands in the scene, and one I'd still listen to.

Nodveidt may be a moron, or a scumbag, but he did create some fantastic music. Same with Varg Vikernes really, the guy seriously has some screws loose, but nutcase actions aside, his music was phenominal.

I don't have Reinkaos, but I thought the song Starless Aeon was excellent.

neGev

I'll agree with you that Burzum is amazing, but there really is much better melodic black metal to be found than Dissection. I've no idea why they became so popular.
Really, Limbonic Art, Naglfar, Old Man's Child, Keep of Kalessin, Rotting Christ - off the top of my head any of them are better than Dissection.

Karl Hungus

neGev wrote:

I'll agree with you that Burzum is amazing, but there really is much better melodic black metal to be found than Dissection. I've no idea why they became so popular.
Really, Limbonic Art, Naglfar, Old Man's Child, Keep of Kalessin, Rotting Christ - off the top of my head any of them are better than Dissection.

Can't say any of those bands, bar maybe some Old Man's Child albums are as good as Dissection.

Mind you, I can't say I'm in much of a position to judge, because over the last few years I've grown away from Black Metal almost to the point where I can't listen to a lot of it. A lot of it feels just too downright stupid to me now, full of elitist posturing and posing, while the music just sounds empty...

I dunno, it seems like all the intelligence has been sapped from the genre after Emperor broke up, and while there's still bands that I adore, such as Enslaved (Who are still doing interesting things), and of course Emperor, it's very rarely I'll hear a new BM band that I'm even lukewarm about.

Last time I heard BM that actually made me want to run out and buy their album was Negura Bunget.

neGev

Karl Hungus wrote:

Last time I heard BM that actually made me want to run out and buy their album was Negura Bunget.

Excellent band.
I think you might like Thy Mighty Contract, Non Serviam and Triarchy of Lost Lovers by Rotting Christ. Possibly Theogonia too.

And I'd urge you to get Drudkh's Blood In Our Wells in the strongest possible terms. You can listen to Furrows Of Gods and Eternity off BIOW on Drudkh's myspace.

Karl Hungus

neGev wrote:

Excellent band.
I think you might like Thy Mighty Contract, Non Serviam and Triarchy of Lost Lovers by Rotting Christ. Possibly Theogonia too.

And I'd urge you to get Drudkh's Blood In Our Wells in the strongest possible terms. You can listen to Furrows Of Gods and Eternity off BIOW on Drudkh's myspace.

No, I've got some Rotting Christ already, and I think it's pretty poor.

Can't say that Drudkh has done anything for me either.

One of the things that really struck me about Negura Bunget was the fact that you could actually hear the bass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8wB7emt6ig

What is it with Black Metal production that it has to remove all the low end? Is it supposed to be painfull to listen to?

superconor

Is it supposed to be painfull to listen to?

Yes.

It wasn't me!

Quite like that vid Kharn, though maybe not enough to buy an album.

neGev

Karl Hungus wrote:

What is it with Black Metal production that it has to remove all the low end? Is it supposed to be painfull to listen to?

You can't be tr00 and kvlt with good production, Karl.

Den_M

neGev wrote:

I'll agree with you that Burzum is amazing, but there really is much better melodic black metal to be found than Dissection. I've no idea why they became so popular.
Really, Limbonic Art, Naglfar, Old Man's Child, Keep of Kalessin, Rotting Christ - off the top of my head any of them are better than Dissection.

I like Rotting Christ and OMC from that list but Dissection were a far better better band than any of those in my opinion. I think they perfected their style on Storm of the Lights Bane, every track on that is killer and the short piano bit at the end is beautiful and shows that Jon wasn't just some tuneless headbanger if you didn't already know it.

While cutting the lower end from the guitars and upping the mids makes it sound less in your face or whatever, it does make it more atmospheric and suitable to the themes of black metal in general. I find it ridiculous when bands are criticized by others in the genre for having production thats 'too good'. It's either Darkthrone or Gorgoroth that were harping on about that in an interview I read a while back.

Morf

Den_M wrote:

I find it ridiculous when bands are criticized by others in the genre for having production thats 'too good'. It's either Darkthrone or Gorgoroth that were harping on about that in an interview I read a while back.

Probably darkthrone . ..

Den_M

Also I think one of the guys from Gorgoroth was saying how he plugs his guitar straight into the desk now, doesn't even mic an amp or use Guitar Rig or whatever, to get the most raw tone possible. Bet it sounds pretty sh!te though.

neGev

All this talk of production is utterly irrelevant. Listen to the music on it's own terms and stop trying to compare it to something it's not.

Black metal bands (along with funeral doom) are arguably the best at creating atmosphere in their albums. Everything is done for a reason. If you don't like the end result, so be it, but you can't approach black metal with your preconceptions and expect it to conform to you.


Regarding Gorgoroth, their sound is more polished than ever before on Ad Majorem Sathanas Gloriam, in fact, it's probably one of the most polished second wave group releases I've heard, and it still doesn't stack up to the quality of Antichrist or UtSoH. Good production does not equal good quality.

Den_M

neGev wrote:

All this talk of production is utterly irrelevant. Listen to the music on it's own terms and stop trying to compare it to something it's not.

Who's comparing it anything? We were talking about how it actually is, not how it should be or compared to death metal etc. Darkthrone expecting other bands to release lo-fi sounding records is plain stupid.

neGev

You can't claim you're not talking about it in a deprecating way. Complaining about it is akin to disliking Picasso because he doesn't adhere to traditional artistic values.

Karl Hungus

neGev wrote:

All this talk of production is utterly irrelevant. Listen to the music on it's own terms and stop trying to compare it to something it's not.

Black metal bands (along with funeral doom) are arguably the best at creating atmosphere in their albums. Everything is done for a reason. If you don't like the end result, so be it, but you can't approach black metal with your preconceptions and expect it to conform to you.

Production is extremely relevant. Whether it's a deliberate lo-fi sound, or a polished one, that's still a production.

And what do you think I'm "Comparing" it to?

Honestly, just go and dig out your copy of De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas and listen to how well you can hear the bass on that album. Compare that to a lot of washed out, tinny recording jobs in BM where the bass is entirely inaudible, and the bass drums sound like a click track.

Sure, saying "Listen to the music on it's own terms" is all well and good as a soundbyte, but the fact is part of the very music is being removed in the production, either on purpose or by inadequet recording methods.

neGev wrote:

Good production does not equal good quality.

Likewise, bad production does not equal "Atmosphere."

Plenty of bands have recorded albums that didn't sound like Darkthrone, and those albums have still managed to be phenominal.

I've no preconceptions about Black Metal, I've been a huge fan of the genre for many years. Perhaps it's the fact that I've grown out of it for the most part, but I tend to look back and think that this bull**** about having to record an album in Fenriz's toilet on a cassette recorder as posturing and posing by elitist ****wits who care more about being "True" and "Cult" than making decent music.

It's also worth noting that Darkthrone have consistantly released turd after turd after turd, and it's still poorly recorded.

You can't claim you're not talking about it in a deprecating way. Complaining about it is akin to disliking Picasso because he doesn't adhere to traditional artistic values.

Darkthrone and their ilk are not Picasso though.

neGev

The point I'm trying to put across is that people in general seem to see lo-fi production as a flaw, whereas it was actually a deliberate decision, and done so by design.
If those first and second wave albums had used crystal-clear production techniques, I think it's highly unlikely that the same atmosphere would have been created.
The methods used were perfect for conveying harshness, despair, desolation and all the other themes that make black metal what it is.

As an aside, lots of early metal releases had questionable sound quality. Does that retract from their quality? Admittedly it wasn't, for the most part, the same reason as in black metal, but the principle remains the same.

Karl_Hungus wrote:

Darkthrone and their ilk are not Picasso though.

When did art/music become an objective rather than subjective thing?

As for calling Darkthrone's entire output 'turds', I'm quite surprised at you, of all people. The first four or five Darkthrone albums are widely considered metal classics. I'm not even a fan of Darkthrone, believe it or not, but I still enjoy the early albums.

I can see that neither of us is going to budge on this topic though

Karl Hungus

neGev wrote:

The point I'm trying to put across is that people in general seem to see lo-fi production as a flaw, whereas it was actually a deliberate decision, and done so by design.
If those first and second wave albums had used crystal-clear production techniques, I think it's highly unlikely that the same atmosphere would have been created.
The methods used were perfect for conveying harshness, despair, desolation and all the other themes that make black metal what it is.

As an aside, lots of early metal releases had questionable sound quality. Does that retract from their quality? Admittedly it wasn't, for the most part, the same reason as in black metal, but the principle remains the same.

I think you misunderstand me.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be lo-fi, or that it has to be a pristene and polished sound. I'm saying that it shouldn't have to remove all the low-end frequencies. It's albums that sound like there's nothing but top end that really grate me.

I've already given De Mysteriis as an example of an album where you can actually hear the bass, and the Negura Bunget song I've linked sounds incredibly good, where the bass is clear and easily audible. I was listening to Enslaved last night, and one of the things that always struck me about their sound was just how deep and powerfull the bassdrums sounded, especially on Below The Lights. Now the production on that album is hardly polished at all, it still manages to sound quite raw, yet they didn't feel the need to have a mix that consisted solely of treble.

Oh, and this isn't something that's strictly directed at Black Metal either, I remember hearing quite a few other metal albums that sounded 99% treble.

Certainly, production wasn't as good as it is today for many classic albums, but I'm not on about super-polished sounding albums, it's about being able to hear all the instruments, and I can stick on many old Thrash albums and be perfectly satisfied with the finished product.

neGev wrote:

When did art/music become an objective rather than subjective thing?

As for calling Darkthrone's entire output 'turds', I'm quite surprised at you, of all people. The first four or five Darkthrone albums are widely considered metal classics. I'm not even a fan of Darkthrone, believe it or not, but I still enjoy the early albums.

I can see that neither of us is going to budge on this topic though

Ah, I didn't really mean to say that Darkthrone's entire output was turdular, just everything since Transilvanian Hunger.

Art/music is completely subjective, but I think the topic of production can be objective.

sulivan666

Hi all,

Dissection along with Old Man's Child were the bands that opened my eyes to black metal scene even though it was hard to get through those sounds at the beginning:).Born of the flickering and both old Dissection albums are classic to me, still after all those years. When I've heard Jon is coming out of jail and having a first gig after all those years I went to Stockholm without hesitation even though what he did was stupid,but all that matters for me was the music he made, it was purely original and inspiring to many people I know not only to me. Its good to hear as well that there are people who are discovering this band and that there are people who hate it as its much better then just being apathetic.


Regards,

Arek

jimmi10

Dissection are one of the few black metal bands I still listen to. Jon Nodveidt was a very talented composer. Being listening to the album "Live Legacy" recently and it is quality. I will have to check out some of their other stuff.

Den_M wrote: »

Did anyone catch them in Whelans in December 04?

I was at that gig too. It was the village though (I still have the ticket stub pinned up in my room).

My most vivid memory is an awful smell of goats blood coming from the stage at the beginning of the night as the boys in Watain had sprayed it around the place earlier.

Dissection were class live and certainly knew how to put on on a good show. I am glad I got to saw them at probably their last Irish gig.

Lawrence1895

jimmi10 wrote: »

Dissection are one of the few black metal bands I still listen to. Jon Nodveidt was a very talented composer. Being listening to the album "Live Legacy" recently and it is quality. I will have to check out some of their other stuff.



I was at that gig too. It was the village though (I still have the ticket stub pinned up in my room).

My most vivid memory is an awful smell of goats blood coming from the stage at the beginning of the night as the boys in Watain had sprayed it around the place earlier.

Dissection were class live and certainly knew how to put on on a good show. I am glad I got to saw them at probably their last Irish gig.

'The Somberlain' is maybe the best song ever written by Dissection, but the 'Reinkaos' album is of very good quality.

And about the personality of Jon Noedveidt, he made a choice, which has to be respected, imo

BlaasForRafa

Karl Hungus wrote: »

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be lo-fi, or that it has to be a pristene and polished sound. I'm saying that it shouldn't have to remove all the low-end frequencies. It's albums that sound like there's nothing but top end that really grate me.

I've already given De Mysteriis as an example of an album where you can actually hear the bass, and the Negura Bunget song I've linked sounds incredibly good, where the bass is clear and easily audible. I was listening to Enslaved last night, and one of the things that always struck me about their sound was just how deep and powerfull the bassdrums sounded, especially on Below The Lights. Now the production on that album is hardly polished at all, it still manages to sound quite raw, yet they didn't feel the need to have a mix that consisted solely of treble.

I don't think there were many producers/engineers who knew how to properly produce and mix black metal albums. Pretty much anything that came out of the Grieghallen or Unisound or The Abyss sounded good but other producers obviously thought just whack up the treble and throw the bass out the window. Ulver's "Nattens Madrigal" was obviously an attempt to do a Transylvanian Hunger type album but it unlistenable ****e because they just made it far too trebly.

You could have a thin, raw production like the Emperor minialbum and In the Nightside Eclipse, Immortal's Pure Holocaust, Burzum's Hvis Lyset and still hear all the instruments. Dodheimsgard's "Kronet til Konge" is a bit of a forgotten gem in this respect imo with Fenriz allegedly playing bass Guitar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZERPM3C1P8

What I say next might be slightly controversial but Black Metal just sounds better on vinyl. Stuff that sounds great on vinyl (like Under a Funeral Moon) can sound awful on cd and mp3. I think the natural warmth of vinyl sound can mitigate to some extent the harshness of a trebly sound.