Firefighters call on young motorists to slow down

DonJose

I have always believed young and inexperienced drivers should be restricted to low powered cars, now the firefighters who lost a colleague last week have called for the same restrictions, will the government listen?

"COLLEAGUES of fire-fighter Michael Liston who was killed in the line of duty last Sunday morning have called on young motorists to slow down.

They also called for restrictions to prevent inexperienced drivers from driving high-powered cars.

They hoped this might prevent them making late-night visits with devastating news for a family.

The entire community of Foynes, Co Limerick, was united in grief at St Senan's Church for the funeral of the 47-year-old father-of-four.

Speaking to 1,500 mourners, Foynes Firestation Officer Michael Donnellan recalled the horrific moment he had to inform Mr Liston's widow Bernadette and their children.

"If people had to face ringing that doorbell, I don‘t think they‘d drive many cars," said a tearful Mr Donnellan.

Michael Liston was killed alongside Garda Brian Kelleher last Sunday morning when they were knocked down r while attending the scene of another accident.

"I'm not pointing the finger at anybody but before you run you must walk. Young drivers, their cars are too powerful. We'll have to bring back the size of these engines," he said.

"When you look at the speedometer, you see 20, 40, 60, 80 and 100. Why is there any more? Surely we have the technology to stop at that. After that we are asking for trouble."

Before the funeral Mass, a heavy wind and rain engulfed the Shannon estuary, while all businesses in the small town closed as a mark of respect.

Michael's remains were carried from his home at Derenish Avenue to the local fire station where 600 fire-fighters and a fire tender led the cortege to the church. To the air of a lament by a lone piper, they escorted the tricolour-laden coffin into the same church where Michael and his wife married 26 years ago.

Canon Tony O'Keefe described Mr Liston as "a giver and a doer".

"As a former firefighter said, he would go through fire and water with you and for you."

Fr O'Keefe said Mr Liston was devoted to his God and was at Mass last Saturday night "just a few hours before he was to meet that God. He said to his mother: that was a lovely Mass, a pity more were not there."

Michael's children and relations brought a number of mementos to the altar, including a fireman's helmet, a toy digger and a photography of his family.

With his grieving family, friends and colleagues standing by, Michael's remains were buried at Robertstown cemetery on a wet and overcast afternoon."

http://www.unison.ie/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1784672&issue_id=15310

DarkJager

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the little scumbag who took their lives gets a double murder sentence.. I know the stretch of road they were killed on very well, and anybody who does over 70kmph on it, is taking a huge risk...

DonJose

DarkJager wrote:

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the little scumbag who took their lives gets a double murder sentence.. I know the stretch of road they were killed on very well, and anybody who does over 70kmph on it, is taking a huge risk...

Being local, do you have more details about this individual you can share.

DarkJager

I don't know the individual at all. From local word though, it seems hes from Kerry and was travelling to a house party in Limerick at 5am that morning. What kind of fvcking idiot would drive from Kerry to Limerick at 5am for a house party??

Biro

I wouldn't be so quick to condemn the young fella. 18 year olds do stupid things, and never think of the concequences. There's 18 year olds doing much worse and getting away with it. I'm not condoning anything, I'm just saying that if he's human at all then causing the death of those two men is more than enough of a sentence for anyone. I know if it happened me it would eat at me for ever.
The problem is giving the keys of a 2 litre coupe to anyone of that age or that inexperienced. It's just not right.
There should be a bhp limit, not a cc limit.

DonJose

Biro wrote:

There's 18 year olds doing much worse

Eh, whats worse than knocking down and killing 2 people.

DarkJager

The question is what was he doing up until he left Kerry. My guess is he had a few drinks, heard about the party and decided to get into his car....which makes him an absolute idiot after everything thats being done to stop drink driving. And now because of this little sh1t, two families have lost their fathers/husbands....give him a break? Break his fvcking neck...

Keith C

Wonder if speed cameras will be put in stretches like this & others around the country where "back" roads are well known for people hurtling along. Probably not as its much easier to place them a safer duel carraigeway with less chance of a serious accident & more chance of earning money thru speeding fines :rolleyes:

Mitch Connor

the guy could have been doing 70 in a micra and still killed them.

Mitch Connor

Keith C wrote:

Wonder if speed cameras will be put in stretches like this & others around the country where "back" roads are well known for people hurtling along. Probably not as its much easier to place them a safer duel carraigeway with less chance of a serious accident & more chance of earning money thru speeding fines :rolleyes:

Wouldn't make a difference on most back roads i have seen, where 80kph is the legal speed limit.

DarkJager

Wouldn;t make a difference on this road anyway. Loads of extremely sharp bends and very narrow.

Anan1

DarkJager wrote:

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the little scumbag who took their lives gets a double murder sentence.. I know the stretch of road they were killed on very well, and anybody who does over 70kmph on it, is taking a huge risk...

Personally, i'd need a lot more than local word or your guess to condemn someone. Presumably the courts will take the same view. Finally, what he did may be many things, but it should be clear to any reasonable person that it's not murder.

kildarejoe

Im sure that young fella did not set out to have an accident or kill anyone. I for one wouldent jump on the band wagon of bad mouthing the chap. Its is obvious that that road is dangerous, (who's fault is that) Im sure that chap dosent maintain that road. And as usual for Ireland the emergency services are under resourced. Im sure the dident have warning signs to indicate an accident ahead or the little blue flashing beacons that you see the cops using in france of uk at night if there is an accident.
Similar incidents happened between kildare and monasterevin, if the emergency services were properly equipped then at least they would stand a chance.
If it was a building site they would not be allowed work without this type of safety equipment.
This and other accidents should be investigated by the health and safety authority in the same way as industrial accidents in factories or building sites.
those men went out to help someone that night and I have every sympathy for their famlies, as for the chap who was driving, he has to live with that for the rest of his life. But if he had drink of drugs on him I wouldent have much sympathy for him.

Biro

DonJose wrote:

Eh, whats worse than knocking down and killing 2 people.

You can't even hazard a guess, no?
@ Anan1 - I agree with your post.
@ Tauren, - you are right, but to be fair, the temptation to put the foot down in a car with a bit of poke is a lot greater. Therefore while limiting all inexperienced drivers to low bhp cars won't wipe out this kind of carnage, I do honestly feel it would help.

mickith

i think its about time that the age of people driving should be brought higher so that you cant drive until you are 20 or 21 maybe.
the amount of accidents caused by inexperienced people in their late teens is quite a lot as far as i no
i just dont think that some young people that drive these days are mature enough to do so. i dont think they should be. now obviously there are people out there in this age group that are well capable drivers but something has to be done

Mitch Connor

http://www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadSafety/file,1948,en.pdf

According to that, in 2003, you were more likely to be in an accident between the ages of 25 and 34, 26.3% of Car Driver injuries and fatalities, with 15 to 20 contributing 9.4% (page 22, though i may be interpreting the statistics incorrectly, as i'm not sure how the 15/16 year olds come into it, as car drivers.)

dr.bollocko

kildarejoe wrote:

Im sure that young fella did not set out to have an accident or kill anyone. I for one wouldent jump on the band wagon of bad mouthing the chap. Its is obvious that that road is dangerous, (who's fault is that) Im sure that chap dosent maintain that road. And as usual for Ireland the emergency services are under resourced. Im sure the dident have warning signs to indicate an accident ahead or the little blue flashing beacons that you see the cops using in france of uk at night if there is an accident.
Similar incidents happened between kildare and monasterevin, if the emergency services were properly equipped then at least they would stand a chance.
If it was a building site they would not be allowed work without this type of safety equipment.
This and other accidents should be investigated by the health and safety authority in the same way as industrial accidents in factories or building sites.
those men went out to help someone that night and I have every sympathy for their famlies, as for the chap who was driving, he has to live with that for the rest of his life. But if he had drink of drugs on him I wouldent have much sympathy for him.

Finally, someone with some sense when it comes to provisional driving. So fed up of this "Lets bash every provisional driver for driving at all" mentality which is the prevalent one on boards with any threads referencing provisional drivers. Its hilariously misguided bandwagon jumping is all it is.

OldmanMondeo

If the young lad was drinking before he set off on his journey, then he will be proscutted for it. He may also be proscutted for other driving offences including causing death. What happened is very sad and my toughts and sympaties go to the families invovled.

But what Ireland needs is proper driver training. Not just taking lessons from anyone, registered or not. Yes the test to get your provo is a start, but we need to have a system of proper training and on going education. Learning to drive and then doing you test automaticaly allows drivers to drive anywhere. We should scrap the test and have something similar to what pilots have, supervised hours of driving. You won't get you full licence until you have reached a certain number of hours driving, in all conditions on all road types. Have a re-test when your licence is due for renewal, again by supervised driving. Proper advance driving courses.

The whoole driving licence and learning system in Ireland needs to be scrapped and re-invented.

Just my 2c.

Henry Ford III

There's a lot more to this than meets the eye. All of it negative against the driver.

For legal reasons I'll not discuss it here.

Biro

Henry Ford III wrote:

There's a lot more to this than meets the eye. All of it negative against the driver.

For legal reasons I'll not discuss it here.

Fair enough, if there is drink or drugs or stolen car or anything like that involved then I've no sympathy for the driver, but I was just making a point not to judge as none of us know the whole story, apart from yourself.

cyrusdvirus

kildarejoe wrote:

Im sure the dident have warning signs to indicate an accident ahead or the little blue flashing beacons that you see the cops using in france of uk at night if there is an accident.

Not bandwagon jumping, as my parents are from that neck of the woods and know the family of the firefighter who was killed, but from the reports i saw the scene was illuminated and the warning lights were out.

Vegeta

Yeah I work in Limerick with a guy from the area and supposedly it doesn't look good for the driver.

Saying that my dad has been a fireman for the last 15 years and has never been to a fatal accident invloving a provisional driver.

blastman

Friend of mine is a fireman and he told me not too long ago that Ireland hadn't lost a fireman on active duty since 1938. Hopefully it will be at least as long again before we lose another one.

ninty9er

The driver was arrested on suspicion of drink driving and released without charge. Especially with a Garda killed, this would not have happened if he had been drinking...going to a house party at 5am isn't unusual, but coming from Kerry to do it is...so I'd be wide of that one

I'd love to see old people restricted in the size of their cars as they're way more dangerous and don't have a clue what a fu<king mirror or indicator is....will it happen....no because all the young driver bashers wouldn't be able to speed about with "their experience" then either.

Grow up!!

afatbollix

can you still be hanged for killing a garda?

cyrusdvirus

AFAIK the death penalty is no longer on the statute books, there was a referendum a few years back, but the way it was removed is that it can be brought back by a Dail vote as opposed to another referendum.

DonJose

The death penalty was abolished in 1991 but I think there is a mandatory death sentence still in the statute books which automatically gets commuted to life imprisonment.

1.—(1) A person shall not be liable to suffer death for any offence other than—

( a ) treason under the Treason Act, 1939;
( b ) capital murder, namely—
(i) murder of a member of the Garda Síochána acting in the course of his duty, or
(ii) murder of a prison officer acting in the course of his duty, or
(iii) murder done in the course or furtherance of an offence under section 6 of the Offences Against the State Act, 1939, or in the course or furtherance of the activities of an unlawful organisation within the meaning of section 18 (other than paragraph (f) ) of that Act, or
(iv) murder, committed within the State for a political motive, of the head of a foreign State or of a member of the government of, or a diplomatic officer of, a foreign State;

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA5Y1964S1.html

Anan1

anto-t wrote:

can you still be hanged for killing a garda?

Even if you could, it would be for murdering a Garda as opposed to killing one.

Fanboy

I work in major insurance company, on a dublin team and would deal with around hundred claims a week. We dont get many fatalities in Dublin. In the year or so i've been working, seeing thousands of claims, i'd say about 25% were provisional drivers at fault. And even then, they are usualy tips in car parks, minor rear ends or single vehcile accidents. My opinion on these kind of 'restrict provisonals' outcries and all that jazz is....that it is already happening to a certain extent, and is working. To get insured on anything over 100BHP (which is what our ins company uses, not CC) when provisional licence is held, will cost you major money. Less with experience, but still very expensive.

I'm not sure of the exact figure, but i'd imagine we insure the majority of provisonal drivers, as thats the market for which our quotes do the best value, compared to others.

Drink or no drink, if you knock down and kill someone on a road, be it the M5 0 or a back road, its due to lack of awareness. The lack of awareness could be due to tiredness, speed or other factors. At the end of the day, you have a responsibilty when you sit behind the wheel of a car. He killed 2 people, and should face the music.

ballooba

Fanboy wrote:

I'm not sure of the exact figure, but i'd imagine we insure the majority of provisonal drivers, as thats the market for which our quotes
do the best value, compared to others.

Quinn then.

cyrusdvirus

me!! wrote:

AFAIK the death penalty is no longer on the statute books, there was a referendum a few years back, but the way it was removed is that it can be brought back by a Dail vote as opposed to another referendum.

DonJose wrote:

The death penalty was abolished in 1991 but I think there is a mandatory death sentence still in the statute books which automatically gets commuted to life imprisonment.

1.—(1) A person shall not be liable to suffer death for any offence other than—

( a ) treason under the Treason Act, 1939;
( b ) capital murder, namely—
(i) murder of a member of the Garda Síochána acting in the course of his duty, or
(ii) murder of a prison officer acting in the course of his duty, or
(iii) murder done in the course or furtherance of an offence under section 6 of the Offences Against the State Act, 1939, or in the course or furtherance of the activities of an unlawful organisation within the meaning of section 18 (other than paragraph (f) ) of that Act, or
(iv) murder, committed within the State for a political motive, of the head of a foreign State or of a member of the government of, or a diplomatic officer of, a foreign State;

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA5Y1964S1.html

Both of us are wrong Don, but i'm going to take some solace in the fact that you're more wrong than me!!

The Twenty-first Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland introduced a constitutional ban on the death penalty and removed all references to capital punishment from the text. It was effected by the Twenty-first Amendment of the Constitution Act, 2001, which was approved by referendum on 7th June 2001 and signed into law on the 27th March, 2002.
(So I was right!!;) )

And article 15.5.2 states ;
The Oireachtas shall not enact any law providing for the imposition of the death penalty.

(So i was wrong )

craichoe

Hmmmm ... Well its engine size vs power output ?

I recon power output, i'd much prefer to be in a bigger car with the power restricted, better brakes, better safety features, better suspension, better roadholding and then when you pass your test you can get your restriction removed !

How about this rather than severly inflating the price of vehicles under a certain CC as people will have NO CHOICE but to but these cars!

This is common practise on motorcycles.

i.e. An aprillia RS125 extrema is a DEATH TRAP, a 400CC V-Twin Honda Bros is far safer. The aprillia is FAR faster than the Bros.

But you can see my point, restricting engine size is restricting the market. You should be able to buy any car you want and restrict the power output or top speed.

I drive a 1.9L TDI and i've often seen Polos and Micras flaking past me on the dual carriageway or going through roudabouts. But i dont NEED to go faster as

1. I have a comfortable car.
2. I don't want to crash the f*cking thing
3. Why go faster than 100 KPH ? You dont get there much quicker anyway !

If i want a thrill, i'd get a bike again and go on a track day.. NEVER in my life would i drive on irish roads again, its suicide.

legs11

i already posted a thread about this, and i was correct to assume this young lad was flying off the road when he killed two men on duty.
there were lighted beacons at the scene as well as 12 men and all the lights on the fire rigs etc were lit up.
so obviously this guy had no clue what was going on.......to say he smashed into the back of a tow truck.
i mean he must have been going pretty fast to give the men absolutely no time to get the hell out of the way.

i blame his parents for letting him drive a 2 litre sports car when he shouldnt have been alowed on a bike imo.

but this guy was hardly going to say no to driving a 2 litre sports car.

as for bhp vs cc, i think its quiet irrelevant. as a 2 litre car obviously got a fair amount of whack.

his father should be ashamed to let him drive a car like that in the first place. as sooner rater than later it would end with devestating consequences

maidhc

Although I know nothing about the exact circumstances, my gut feeling is that the Gardaí fire service, and the two individuals killed were somewhat reckless in putting themselves in a position where this could happen.

When you are on a public road, even if you are a garda, logic should dictate that it is at least possible that a car may not stop. It wasn't an emergency where anyones life was at danger that they were tending to, so they should really have ensured their working conditions were safe.

I am not saying the guy with the Audi was in the right, far from it, but what happens him is pretty inconsequential to those who were killed.

I see a claim against the gardai and fireservice by the families.

bushy...

craichoe wrote:

Hmmmm ... Well its engine size vs power output ?

I recon power output, i'd much prefer to be in a bigger car with the power restricted, better brakes, better safety features, better suspension, better roadholding and then when you pass your test you can get your restriction removed !

How about this rather than severly inflating the price of vehicles under a certain CC as people will have NO CHOICE but to but these cars!

This is common practise on motorcycles.

i.e. An aprillia RS125 extrema is a DEATH TRAP, a 400CC V-Twin Honda Bros is far safer. The aprillia is FAR faster than the Bros.


But you can see my point, restricting engine size is restricting the market.

The Aprilia RS125 isn't that faster , and it has good tyres/brake etc. It is far from a death trap ( try KH750s for interesting experiences).
Now the bit it has in common with (some esp smaller) cars , it has a very peaky engine which doesnt do much at low rpm at all, which can make for an enjoyable ride , but means you have to keep it busy. This is grand a lot of the time but can encourage lads to faster than they should in certain situations. Also in common it has enough power to get you into trouble but often it can't get you out.

copacetic

ninty9er wrote:

The driver was arrested on suspicion of drink driving and released without charge. Especially with a Garda killed, this would not have happened if he had been drinking...going to a house party at 5am isn't unusual, but coming from Kerry to do it is...so I'd be wide of that one

I'd love to see old people restricted in the size of their cars as they're way more dangerous and don't have a clue what a fu<king mirror or indicator is....will it happen....no because all the young driver bashers wouldn't be able to speed about with "their experience" then either.

Grow up!!

He could easily be released without charge if he had been drinking. People are questioned and released all the time in relation to serious offences. Usually it happens when the DPP and Gardai want to look into their options before charging and believe there are potentially very serious charges to bring.

cyrusdvirus

maidhc wrote:

Although I know nothing about the exact circumstances, my gut feeling is that the Gardaí fire service, and the two individuals killed were somewhat reckless in putting themselves in a position where this could happen.
When you are on a public road, even if you are a garda, logic should dictate that it is at least possible that a car may not stop. It wasn't an emergency where anyones life was at danger that they were tending to, so they should really have ensured their working conditions were safe.

I am not saying the guy with the Audi was in the right, far from it, but what happens him is pretty inconsequential to those who were killed.

I see a claim against the gardai and fireservice by the families.

Maidhc,your entitled to you opinion, but if this post sums up your attitude, then it bites the big one.

They were at the scene of another accident. Where a person had to be cut out of their car. It's like the unofficial motto of the US Coast Guard. "You have to go out. You don't have to come back"

It wasn't an emergency where anyones life was at danger that they were tending to, so they should really have ensured their working conditions were safe.

And what time would that have been? Lets close a road during the daytime because of an accident?
The optimal time to clear up an accident is when the roads are quiet. And at 5am you don't expect some idiot haring it along as if his ass is on fire to get to a party so he can probably shag some young one.

I see a claim against the gardai and fireservice by the families

Maybe so, but it's more realistic to assume that the emergency services have a fund for deaths in service.

Can anyone remember if Detective Jerry McCabe's widow has put in a claim? I don't know but i'd doubt it because i would think that the service families look after their own

Posts like that maidhc, they really annoy me. HOW DARE YOU call 2 men who have given their lives in the service of their country reckless.

maidhc

gatecrash wrote:

Posts like that maidhc, they really annoy me. HOW DARE YOU call 2 men who have given their lives in the service of their country reckless.

I said at the start I don't know the precise circumstances, but

putting a Carina E onto the back of a truck is not something that they or their superiors should have put themselves in a position of danger over.

They are two workers like everyone else. Just like a builder shouldn't go up on a dangerous ladder in a high wind, neither should they put themselves in a path of an oncoming car, or if there was no option, but to be in that position a further member of the force and a squad car should have been positioned so as to protect them.

TJJP

maidhc wrote:

Although I know nothing about the exact circumstances, my gut feeling is that the Gardaí fire service, and the two individuals killed were somewhat reckless in putting themselves in a position where this could happen.

I think this is rather unfair comment. Given the situation (the previous accident) in which they were involved (of which we know very little), I would have thought that their concern was likely for the driver of the car they were recovering or the safety of the general public and the urgent need to clear the public highway. In my experience Gardai and Firefighters are in the role they are as they have a particular ability to often put others first. For this reason this tragedy is particularly sad and is not unlike the case of firefighters or rescue workers caught up in the 9/11 tragedy.

Again, I know little about the facts and the driver involved, but my personal rule of thumb is Drink + Drive = Idiot. We have been told enough times in this country not to drink and drive, and it is a pity we need to be reminded of this again. If drink was involved, a sober driver may have had the extra few seconds to react and spare a lot of people a lot of grief.

Nor do I believe that any amount of restrictions on young drivers will solve this problem. Insurance limits certainly haven't worked as the 'auld fells are quite happy to pull scams like insure their sons as a name driver in their or the Ma's name on the 2L while sonny insures the 1.0L micra with Ma or Pa as a name driver. Guess who drives the 2L around back roads at 4 am while pops drives ma home the few miles from the local in the Micra.

My 2c's on this one. I've still got 98c change.

cyrusdvirus

maidhc wrote:

I said at the start I don't know the precise circumstances, but

putting a Carina E onto the back of a truck is not something that they or their superiors should have put themselves in a position of danger over.

They are two workers like everyone else. Just like a builder shouldn't go up on a dangerous ladder in a high wind, neither should they put themselves in a path of an oncoming car, or if there was no option, but to be in that position a further member of the force and a squad car should have been positioned so as to protect them.

There were warning beacons out on the road telling drivers to slow down.

Apparently and allegedly the driver thought that it was a checkpoint so he accelerated to go through. He hit the carina which then hit Garda Kelleher and Firefighter Liston.

If a squad car had been blocking the road and this toolbag drove into that at pace he probably would've killed himself (no great loss in my opinion) and his 2 friends in the car, but then every bleeding heart in the country would be out castigating the Gardai for parking blocking the road with a squad car.

The only option was to follow established procedure and place warning beacons out.

gyppo

gatecrash wrote:

There were warning beacons out on the road telling drivers to slow down.

Apparently and allegedly the driver thought that it was a checkpoint so he accelerated to go through. He hit the carina which then hit Garda Kelleher and Firefighter Liston.

If a squad car had been blocking the road and this toolbag drove into that at pace he probably would've killed himself (no great loss in my opinion) and his 2 friends in the car, but then every bleeding heart in the country would be out castigating the Gardai for parking blocking the road with a squad car.

The only option was to follow established procedure and place warning beacons out.

If what is posted here is true, then if there is any justice in this country, this louse will serve a custodial sentence.

I would find it hard to believe that the standard practice of using beacons/warning lights was not carried out. From pictures in the press, the recovery lorry had amber roof beacons fitted - even if these were the only ones used, it should have been quite visible from a good distance away.

unkel

maidhc wrote:

I don't know the precise circumstances

TJJP wrote:

I know little about the facts and the driver involved

Rather than speculate or point the finger, we'll leave this for the authorities to investigate, etc.

My thoughts go out to all people affected by this tragedy