1st level in the JP monthly game

AKQJ10

Villain is UTG and has me covered. Good player most of you will know him.
I'm BB with 9k.

Villain limps for 50. This means everyone at the table apart from maybe one or two limp in aswell. I look down at QQ. I make it 500 to go. UTG flat calls.
Everyone else for once manages to fold.

The flop comes down 10 8 2 rainbow. (1300)
I bet out 800. Again he flat calls.

Turn 5 (2900)
I check and he bets out 2k
I fold. Thoughts?

I fold here as i feel the only hands he could bet here are 88, 1010, KK, AA. If he has JJ he would check behind to call a bet on river maybe if he feels they could be good. He could have had the same hand but i thought that was pretty unlikely. Folding now leaves me with 8700 with a table full of fish so i fold rather than get involved in a massive pot with the one decent player at the table unsure of where i stand.

Anyone agree/disagree with this?

ianmc38

Who's the villain?

Hectorjelly

It depends on who the player is and what I think they think about me. I mean you have clearly defined your hand as an overpair and they dont seem to care, for some players this means they are probably bluffing you, for others they flopped a set. I would fold without a read.

I think you played the hand very badly in the context of deep stacked event. You have gotten to the turn out of position, having clearly signalled what your hand is to a good player, but not really having an idea of his, and having 8k of your 9k stack behind. This is an awful spot to be in.

AKQJ10

If it matters it's Wes (bottomfeeder)

phantom_lord

why is he open limping a hand that's happy to call a big overbet with?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Solksjaer

Good fold. and the fact that you are playing the player here and not the board shows you can play this game yourself. I disagree with HJs (ban him) post, you played your QQs ok, the fold shows discipline he either had a better hand or was bluffing (unlikely) looks like you lost the minimum He had a set I've no doubt.

ianmc38

Against Wes I'd fold. He has 888/222 alot here.

Hectorjelly

Solksjaer wrote:

Good fold. and the fact that you are playing the player here and not the board shows you can play this game yourself. I disagree with HJs (ban him) post, you played your QQs ok, the fold shows discipline he either had a better hand or was bluffing (unlikely) looks like you lost the minimum He had a set I've no doubt.

You think he played it well because you havent realised the differences in strategy these deep stacked situations need. Against a good player (especially out of position) its crucial, firstly not to telegraph your hand strength at an early stage in the hand, and secondly not to build a a huge pot for your one pair hand, especially if you are going to get to a spot like this, having no clear idea where you stand. In a normal tournament it makes much less difference if you do these things because the person is making such a huge mistake preflop and on the flop. With deep stacks you can make bad calls preflop and on the flop if you can force your opponent to make worse decisions later in the hand when the bet sizes really matter. The preflop and flop play combined is bad, and it would of been much better to check one or both of these streets.

Also you are wrong, I think there is virtually no chance he is out and out bluffing here. He may be betting a worse hand though

Solksjaer

I did say it was UNLIKELY he was bluffing...ie not likely, ie. Don't think he was bluffing....ie I thought he had a set...

Anyway it terms of JPs tournament I think he played this ok and his fold was correct.
As he said he had enough left to continue on without benig severly wounded so I don't see it as a very badly played hand at all.
Of course I'm only a part time genius. I will take this post to my muse and discuss it with him, until then I see this as good fold .

QQ is after all a pretty good hand . His (WES) call of 500 was very strange though so perhaps he was hoping for this raise and had the bullets. Sounds logical, bottom line is to know when to quit the hand.

I give you 6 out of 10 for the hand and 10 out of 10 for the fold. That' s 16 out of 20. I dream of figures like this....:)

Hectorjelly

you seemed to have totally missed what Im saying

Solksjaer

and vice versa. I know what you are saying about telegraphing your hand to a good player out of position etc. thereby exposing yourself. THis analysis is at a high level of play IMO, which I don't think this tournament is generally (no offence to all to the players) a lot of the time some of these guys think you are at it and will defend a pocket pair to the hilt.

I think Wes is one of the better players there but he's not Phil Ivey. My point is in the context of the tournament he was playing in. It was not that badly played. Your points are valid at a high standard of play. I think this also needs to be considered.

btw It's NOT a huge pot . He only comitted 1300 of his own stack there . Starting stack 10K
This could have been much worse.


corrected my spelling..

30something

WAIT A MINUTE ...........

Your BB raise could easily be AK or two high cards designed to narrow the field and to protect your BB. Any small - mid pp or decent suited conectors in the hands of a good player could call this raise early in deep stack tourney knowing he had pos on you and anticipating (correctly) that the limpers will fold.

You then apparantly cbet the flop - the lack of high cards makes this a call by a good player to see what you do on the turn. You then check the turn which invites a bet.

If the good player has a set here, why is he betting 2k (into a 2.6k approx pot)? This bet is designed to make you fold your "missed AK".

I think you were hood-winked. I would check call this down.

But then again see my sig.

Gholimoli

Solksjaer wrote:

and vice versa. I know what you are saying about telegraphing your hand to a good player out of position etc. thereby exposing yourself. THis analysis is at a high level of play IMO, which I don't think this tournament is generally (no offence to all to the players) a lot of the time some of these guys think you are at it and will defend a pocket pair to the hilt.

I think Wes is one of the better players there but he's not Phil Ivey. My point is in the contenxt of the tournament he was playing in. It was not that badly played. Your points are valid at a high standard of play. I think this also needs to be considered.

btw It's NOT a huge pot . He only comitted 1300 of his own stack there . Stating stack 10K
This could have been much worse.


corrected my spelling..

You are making invalid points here.
HJ is discussing the optimal way of playing this hand.
How much he invested is not relevant here.

Say we have 10K and raise preflop with AA to 500.
We get called and the flop is T 8 2 .

We bet half the pot and then our opponent goes all in.
Should we fold because we have “only invested 1K” and we have 9k left and “that’s plenty left to play”.

Also if you think that people in this kind of tournaments will defend a pocket pair to hilt then why are you suggesting that this is a good fold.
If you are saying that WES is a better player than that then why are you suggesting that he is not good enough to spot an exploitable situation when one presents it self.

He could easily have 33,44,55,66,77,99,JJ here and we are ahead of all of them.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

looks to me like an overpair more likely to be kk rather than aa hence the 2k bet just to be sure there is no cruel river card, it is unlikely he has a set as he knows he is ahead (prob knows your range is jj qq ak aq with initial raise) and would not want you out of the pot at that point....cmon bottomfeeder am i right???:rolleyes:

Captain Tom

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Call the turn bet. And check / call any non - Ace card (for your entire stack if neccesary) on the river.

i like this line.from my experience players generally see a p/f overbet as AK/AQ.after you check the turn these hands are highly possible so i dont see why villian would bet so big with AA/KK/set.

Solksjaer

Gholimoli wrote:

You are making invalid points here.
HJ is discussing the optimal way of playing this hand.
How much he invested is not relevant here.

Say we have 10K and raise preflop with AA to 500.
We get called and the flop is T 8 2 .

We bet half the pot and then our opponent goes all in.
Should we fold because we have “only invested 1K” and we have 9k left and “that’s plenty left to play”.

Also if you think that people in this kind of tournaments will defend a pocket pair to hilt then why are you suggesting that this is a good fold.
If you are saying that WES is a better player than that then why are you suggesting that he is not good enough to spot an exploitable situation when one presents it self.

He could easily have 33,44,55,66,77,99,JJ here and we are ahead of all of them.

I'm not going to get involved in a debate with you me lad, I've seen how they develop.
I will of course this once back up my points so that a reasonable person understand them.

Point 1. The OP asked was this fold good. (he didn't ask for the optimal way to play the hand) I said yes it was. My reason was I think Wes had a better hand.

Point 2. (linked to pint 1) Amount invested is VERY RELEVANT. 1300 and not pot committed.

Point 3. People in this tournament will defend Pocket pairs to the hilt. This is true but not WES, this is why I said it was a good fold. Any other player well this hand could have ended much worse for OP.
Point 4. I don't think WES is exploiting his position, IMO he has a better hand and knows it...full stop. Position irrelevant in this instance. FOLD was GOOD.

Point 4. as for your scenario, not relevant.


Does this mean I'm now a Idiot or something like that. I'm not very secure so please go easy on me.


Don't forget smileys indicate, take sentence with a pinch of salt.......(I know but sometime you have to point it out)

Gholimoli

Solksjaer wrote:

Does this mean I'm now a Idiot or something like that. I'm not very secure so please go easy on me.

no you are just too confident and good for me to argue with .

it must be a great feeling to be so secure hey?

Solksjaer

Gholimoli wrote:

no you are just too confident and good for me to argue with .

it must be a great feeling to be so secure hey?

It's good to be secure, it's good to be secure. it's good to be secure...
(I have to say thet every night before bed or I go off the rails and cover my room wih mustard)

Flushdraw

I think Wes has one of 2 hands here. AK or JJ and you were ahead of both. If he had AA or KK he may limp UTG but he would have reriased your preflop raise. I doubt he would limp call a 500 bet with 22-88 knowing you have a fairly tight image and that you are probably ahead so he needs to hit a set to carry on. He would have raised himself with 99-1010.

Its hard to play the hand OOP and Wes would have seen the check on the turn as weakness and tried to take it there and then with a bet himself. If you call or push here, i think Wes gives up on this hand

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

I never play fr, but surely people shouldn't open limp here either? esp. not with 88/1010/ak or whatever you expect him to have here?

Flushdraw

phantom_lord wrote:

I never play fr, but surely people shouldn't open limp here either? esp. not with 88/1010/ak or whatever you expect him to have here?

A lot of people do this with AK, if they hit the flop, there hand is somewhat disguised and if they miss it goes in the muck for a 50 investment.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Gus Ivey

LuckyLloyd wrote:

In that particular tournament it wasn't so bad. A lot of early multi - limp hands will be min - raised by some muppet in the blinds / late position who does it while saying "have to tax the limpers lads".

LOL

AKQJ10

whats your optimal line HJ. I made it 500 preflop as i only wanted to play against one/two players as its only one pair at the end of the day. if i raise less ill have around 5 to the flop and may aswell muck my hand on flop if i dont hit set.

Hectorjelly

I would consider just checking from the BB, and if I raised I would just make it 250 or so. Id probably only raised if I had raised several hands before. Also I would strongly consider checking that flop, if you bet there you are creating an unmanageably big pot.

AKQJ10

ok so if i check from BB. then check flop. it goes raise, call before me do i call, raise, fold. I mean the only reason ive had to telegraph a big hand is that the standard at the table is terrible, i mean really reall bad. that's another reason i folded the turn as with 8k im still confident i can gather chips against these guys.

Hectorjelly

Well If the players are that bad, then raising preflop is fine. Then once wes calls you could check the flop. I dont really like a turn check fold, bet/fold might be better.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

I would consider just checking from the BB, and if I raised I would just make it 250 or so. Id probably only raised if I had raised several hands before. Also I would strongly consider checking that flop, if you bet there you are creating an unmanageably big pot.

i dont like just checking from the BB at all with that many limpers.
you are effectively playing for set value when you do this IMO and so loosing alot of QQ value.

i would deffo raise .
post flop i would some times check,some times bet.
it would depend on the opponent really i guess.
i would be alert about the flat call from UTG though and try not to play a big pot specially if i rate the player.
i guess this means i would check the flop in this spot.

jbravado

Checking from the bb is crazy imo.

I really dont think thats your line too often hj.

Hectorjelly

Its not crazy at all, there no harm in treating them like a mid pair. In a spot like this the blinds are not worth winning at all, its far more important not to set yourself up to lose a big pot. It doesnt lose you any value, because its not a hand you are going to want to play a big pot with anyway.

bottom feeder

Thanks Lloyd for the vote of confendince as you have just blown my tight image out of the water ......lol

I think flushdraw guessed it as i had completely missed my flop and decided i was now playing the player as i have played with AKQJ10 before and know his range [i'm so far behind] - I was intending to make a move on him and when the turn was checked to me i took this opportunity and bet out.....

AKQJ10 i know i told you i had JJ but i had AK....... Sorry mate ... Anyway how did you finish up...

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

AKQJ10

AK you sick puppy. A guy called me with a gutshot for 10k on the turn when i was at it with an underpair. So sick he said i thought you had trip queens and i go so how can you call. His response is typical of the day "ah sure any ten and i win" Unbelievable!

bottom feeder

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Well, on a serious note - the reality is that you are more than good enough to take a shot here after he checks with AK / AQ; and you are also confident enough to decide to take that flop in position with the intention of playing your way to the pot.

I made the mistake before in the Boards game not so long ago of folding the best hand (JJ) to you on a K high board. In any case, it should be good for you to know that I would go broke to you here with QQ as long as the river wasn't an overcard.

ok ok lloyd if we are being serious i remember that hand very well and remember windin you up, but i had AK that time ......[Serious]

And i have also promised myself never to fold to you again esp when i have top 2 pair against your top pair........ yes yes yes Wes i have a set .......lol



UL AKQJ10 [any 10:mad: ]

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

DITTag

K6... Defo top 3 hands I have ever heard about... Classic lol

Flushdraw

LuckyLloyd wrote:

lol - nuff said.

Mark:

The muppet who did ya was moved over to my table soon after. He was the worst player I have ever seen. And I really, really mean that.

Highlights:

- Blinds 500 / 1000. MP raises all in for 6500. He is next to act and insta - calls. Folded back to the small blind who moves in for 17,000. He insta - calls that aswell.

Original raiser has 22, SB KK - muppet has A2!!

- The other highlight was him limping with in the cutoff after two limpers before him. Mick Frisby raises to 5,000 on the button (same blind level) - folded around to him and he calls.

Flop 5710. He checks, Mick bets 6000. He calls. Turn 9. He checks, Mick bets 7000, he calls. River is an Ace. He checks, Mick checks. Mick shows KQ - muppet shows the monster J6 offsuit!!:eek:

- But the ultimate highlight was him talking to his mate about the hand he knocked out Mark with after getting moved to our table. "I thought he would have the Queen - but when I saw the fours I knew I had got him". Wow.

Wow..you must point him out to me LLoyd, thats hillarious stuff!

AKQJ10

I came back in and was watchin his table and he looked up and smiled about the hand. i said thats one of the worst calls ive ever seen. He tried to console me by saying "ah dont worry about you missed the next hand i flopped a full house" I just walked away. He looked like steve danneman played like victor ramdin.

Hectorjelly

So the guy doesnt know how to play cards, I dont think that warrents calling him a muppet. Theres more to life that reading poker forums every day!

califano

Ok whats her name!?. Your in love right?

AKQJ10

who you kidding?

30something

bottom feeder wrote:

Thanks Lloyd for the vote of confendince as you have just blown my tight image out of the water ......lol

I think flushdraw guessed it as i had completely missed my flop and decided i was now playing the player as i have played with AKQJ10 before and know his range [i'm so far behind] - I was intending to make a move on him and when the turn was checked to me i took this opportunity and bet out.....

AKQJ10 i know i told you i had JJ but i had AK....... Sorry mate ... Anyway how did you finish up...

I think my initial analysis was close for once

Lazare

I took this at the smoke break, which one is he?

Solksjaer

Lazare wrote:

I took this at the smoke break, which one is he?

great pic lol
the fitz 4 am on a sunday morning........especially if I've had whiskey on me