Deterring thieves

junii

My car is nothing special at all but id say it would be an attraction to joyriders.

I have seen those devices that attach to the steering wheel and the gearbox. How well do they work? They would probably put off all but the most determined anyway would'nt they?

Kimbot

At the end of the day no matter what you put inot the car.... If they want it they will take it!!

junii

jonny24ie wrote:

At the end of the day no matter what you put inot the car.... If they want it they will take it!!

True but its only joyriders that would be interested in my car an id imagine they'd be out for the easiest target.

Kimbot

Nah!! Whatever takes their fancy they will try!! Had them try a car with all those locks and an alarm on it!!

Tipsy Mac

A swift sniper rifle disharged into their knees is the only option you have, that way the next car they rob will need to be an automatic meaning your car won't be touched

Anan1

junii wrote:

True but its only joyriders that would be interested in my car an id imagine they'd be out for the easiest target.

What car is it?

overdriver

The missus' Micra was broken into FOUR times before I put a dirty great big chain on the steering wheel. Fine ever since, but as someone said, if they want it, they'll get it. However, it's just the hope that they'll move to an easier target rather than spend undue time on yours.

jimmycrackcorm

A lock and chain is the only useful deterrent. A friend of mine when to a car parts store to buy one of those wheel locks. The owner let him try it out on his car to see if it would fit. Then he couldn't find the key to get it off.

The owner said no problem and came back out with a cordless drill and had it off in 30 seconds.

jimmycrackcorm

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

A lock and chain is the only useful deterrent. A friend of mine when to a car parts store to buy one of those wheel locks. The owner let him try it out on his car to see if it would fit. Then he couldn't find the key to get it off.

The owner said no problem and came back out with a cordless drill and had it off in 30 seconds.

Thieves can bypass a lock and chain in seconds, all they do is cut the steering wheel with a hacksaw making the chain worthless.

One of these http://www.c-p-p.co.uk/product/asp/ProdID/2105/af/page.htm
is probably your best bet.

In holland a few years ago car crime was so bad people left their cars unlocked with glovebox open in full view.
They left a note in the dash saying the car was unlocked and there was nothing of value in the car!

ianobrien

I don't bother with the visual stuff. What I do is I take the rotor arm out of the distributor, and I also take one HT lead.

Let them try to start the car then......

Beekay

I have that big yellow steering lock!

Max_Damage

My car was broken into 3 times before, and they never managed to steal it. I have the Autolok on the gearstick/handbrake, a homemade immobiliser kill switch hidden under the dashboard, and a car alarm.

Wibbs

junii wrote:

I have seen those devices that attach to the steering wheel and the gearbox. How well do they work? They would probably put off all but the most determined anyway would'nt they?

Sadly they're crap. They actually help the scum break the inbuilt steering lock. I would partially agree with ronoc on his choice. The best one of those is the one that covers the entire steering wheel. That or a snap off wheel as the ultimate steering wheel device. The padlock and chain is cheaper than anything and it makes the scums life awkward. Which is a good thing. The gearstick/handbrake ones are utterly useless too.

jonny24ie wrote:

At the end of the day no matter what you put inot the car.... If they want it they will take it!!

No offense to you but that's mostly utter crap. All too common to hear but still crap. In fact it's that stupid idea that helps increase car crime as people don't bother with proper security. It's self defeating. Frankly if you take that notion to be true you may as well leave the keys in the ignition. I had a car stolen a few years back and I swore no scummer would do it again and if they did I would make it so difficult for them it wouldn't be worth the bother or I would discover them in the act and *ahem* restrain them.

Ok a few tips I learned over the years.

1) Fit an alarm. Doesn't have to be too expensive, just well fitted. 90% of alarms are fitted badly. Again they can help the experienced scum actually start the car easier. Rather than using the immobiliser to cut the ignition get your alarm fitter to fit it so it cuts the fuel. It'll make the scum confused as the car will turn over, but won't catch as there's no fuel getting to the engine. Major slowdown for the scum. If you can afford it fit a mercury tilt switch to the underside of the bonnet. This will go off if they bypass the bonnet alarm switch or if they try to jack up the car to nick your alloys.

2) If you're anyway handy with mechanics, move your bonnet release to a different place in the cabin. That'll slow them down.

3)Fit a siren with a backup battery in it, then even if they get the bonnet open it'll still be going off. For a few extra quid, fit a backup battery for the alarm itself. That'll really slow them down. Another few ideas; fit a loud siren inside the car as well as your main one(get them from ebay for a few quid). Another thought you could wire in a powerful strobe light to the overhead light inside the car. That would put anyone off. Imagine trying to feel wires with both a siren and a strobe goin' off. Hopefully the scum might fit out too. Result. Though I reckon I've strayed into madness there...:D

4) Simple one. When you park the car turn the wheel all the way one way or the other and apply the handbrake. It'll make the built in steering lock harder to force and stop them pushing your car out of the driveway.

5) As Max_Damage has done, make a separate fuel kill switch and hide the switch inside the cabin(not on the dashboard). Google for instructions. It's very easy thing to do and again slows the scum down.

If you want to spend money you could make a car very very difficult to steal. A car that will take more than the usual few seconds to nick. Add an anti hijack device and a tracker for the more expensive cars(not applicable here though). Hell there's even an alarm add on that will fill the car with acrid blinding smoke. Sweet. Layers are the thing. No one layer will stop a determined scumbag, but many layers will slow them down to the point where they'll simple bugger off back to their hovels to drown their sorrows with cheap cider and oven chips.

Hey make a little hobby of your car security.:D

Max_Damage

5) As Max_Damage has done, make a separate fuel kill switch and hide the switch inside the cabin (not on the dashboard). Google for instructions. It's very easy thing to do and again slows the scum down.

My switch his hidden under the dash, not on it. What I done was cut the wires that go from the key ignition to the coil, but not to the starter motor, and stuck a switch on the wires. So if some scumbag tries to hotwire the car, the engine will just turnover but it won't start. The theroy behind that is to make them think the car just won't start due to mechanical problems or whatever.

It's an ideal thing to do, but I doubt it can be done on modern cars, due to the complex set up of electronics and what not. It was easy to be done to my car, given the fact my car is 17 yrs. old and has pretty much no complex electronics in it at all.

Wibbs

Max_Damage wrote:

My switch his hidden under the dash, not on it.

Anywhere that's not obvious is the plan. A mate of mine has his switch in plain bloody view. Sadly that means that he has only protected his car if Stevie Wonder tries to nick it.

What I done was cut the wires that go from the key ignition to the coil, but not to the starter motor, and stuck a switch on the wires. So if some scumbag tries to hotwire the car, the engine will just turnover but it won't start. The theroy behind that is to make them think the car just won't start due to mechanical problems or whatever.

Good plan. My hat's off to you. A good example of someone who doesn't believe the idiocy of "ah sure if they want it they'll take it". Another is the fuel kill as it's harder to trace and you can't bypass it under the bonnet. Luckily we're still generally dealing with brainless scum in this country so the slightest deviation from their stimulus response pattern screws them up.

It's an ideal thing to do, but I doubt it can be done on modern cars, due to the complex set up of electronics and what not. It was easy to be done to my car, given the fact my car is 17 yrs. old and has pretty much no complex electronics in it at all.

True enough, but your modern car would have the built in immobiliser that should stop most, although you can still bypass them. Even with a new car I reckon you could still do the fuel kill/alarm/anti hijack etc.

cormie

Wibbs, you should start doing that stuff on the side for people. I know I'd pay you to do it for me. I plan one day having a murcielago and I'd really prefer it not to get stolen:D

overdriver

Wibbs wrote:

Layers are the thing. No one layer will stop a determined scumbag, but many layers will slow them down to the point where they'll simple bugger off back to their hovels to drown their sorrows with cheap cider and oven chips.

Hey make a little hobby of your car security.:D

My favourite post of the week, Wibbs!



I'll certainly be trying some of your ideas on the girlfriend's Micra.

Kimbot

Wibbs wrote:

No offense to you but that's mostly utter crap. All too common to hear but still crap. In fact it's that stupid idea that helps increase car crime as people don't bother with proper security. It's self defeating. Frankly if you take that notion to be true you may as well leave the keys in the ignition. I had a car stolen a few years back and I swore no scummer would do it again and if they did I would make it so difficult for them it wouldn't be worth the bother or I would discover them in the act and *ahem* restrain them.

Ok a few tips I learned over the years.

1) Fit an alarm. Doesn't have to be too expensive, just well fitted. 90% of alarms are fitted badly. Again they can help the experienced scum actually start the car easier. Rather than using the immobiliser to cut the ignition get your alarm fitter to fit it so it cuts the fuel. It'll make the scum confused as the car will turn over, but won't catch as there's no fuel getting to the engine. Major slowdown for the scum. If you can afford it fit a mercury tilt switch to the underside of the bonnet. This will go off if they bypass the bonnet alarm switch or if they try to jack up the car to nick your alloys.

2) If you're anyway handy with mechanics, move your bonnet release to a different place in the cabin. That'll slow them down.

3)Fit a siren with a backup battery in it, then even if they get the bonnet open it'll still be going off. For a few extra quid, fit a backup battery for the alarm itself. That'll really slow them down. Another few ideas; fit a loud siren inside the car as well as your main one(get them from ebay for a few quid). Another thought you could wire in a powerful strobe light to the overhead light inside the car. That would put anyone off. Imagine trying to feel wires with both a siren and a strobe goin' off. Hopefully the scum might fit out too. Result. Though I reckon I've strayed into madness there...:D

4) Simple one. When you park the car turn the wheel all the way one way or the other and apply the handbrake. It'll make the built in steering lock harder to force and stop them pushing your car out of the driveway.

5) As Max_Damage has done, make a separate fuel kill switch and hide the switch inside the cabin(not on the dashboard). Google for instructions. It's very easy thing to do and again slows the scum down.

If you want to spend money you could make a car very very difficult to steal. A car that will take more than the usual few seconds to nick. Add an anti hijack device and a tracker for the more expensive cars(not applicable here though). Hell there's even an alarm add on that will fill the car with acrid blinding smoke. Sweet. Layers are the thing. No one layer will stop a determined scumbag, but many layers will slow them down to the point where they'll simple bugger off back to their hovels to drown their sorrows with cheap cider and oven chips.

Hey make a little hobby of your car security.:D

Well I had a car with Full alarm system, Full stearing wheel lock and handbrake/gearstick lock!! I left it outside the Garda HQ for a while and when I went back my door was peeled back!!
My G/F's current car has an alarm which I installed into it!! It would take alot of effort to rob her car but wait.......... they little toe rags tried till I went chasing them down the road with a steel bar in my hand!! For days they came back trying to get the car knowing that they wouldn't be able to start it!!
If they can't take the car they will seriously damage it cos they would be that pi$$ed off!!
Now pop onto any number of sites about cars and see how many get robbed on a daily basis!! WHat kind of alarms and cut off switches etc are fitted to them and you will see that your state,ent is very wrong!!
As I have said before... If a scummer gets the idea into his/her head that they want your car.... nothing will stop them from trying!! If they don't get it then they will damage your pride and joy!!

prospect

One of my top deterrent tips is light.

Install a 500w sensor floodlight pointing down in the area where your car is. Anyone goes near the car at night is not going to want to be so clearly visable.

Wibbs

cormie wrote:

Wibbs, you should start doing that stuff on the side for people.

That would be grand idea, sadly Im all fingers and thumbs. In fact I got more thumbs than a hitchhikers conference. Also I know vaguely the leccy bits of a very small number of cars so as a business plan for me not so good.:D

I know I'd pay you to do it for me.

Steady...

I plan one day having a murcielago and I'd really prefer it not to get stolen:D

The only way I'll get my hands on a murcielago is if I nick yours one day, so I'd prefer not to bugger my chances at this stage.:D

overdriver wrote:

I'll certainly be trying some of your ideas on the girlfriend's Micra.

ehhhhh I wouldn't worry too much.:D Only kidding. The scum will nick anything. Monobrowed little mutants.

Hagar

Get the missus to sleep in the car. A win win situation.
If it's not stolen you win, if it is stolen you win, big time.

cormie

just in terms of thief deterrents, my idea is to get a tape/radio only head unit and, well if you have a nice fancy one, rip the plastic front panel off and get something that will allow you to place it over your expensive one and scatter a few tapes on the dash/seat. Hopefully they wont be interested in a tape head unit:)

overdriver

Well, they specialise in particular models, according to the local plod. So when say. an Astra goes missing, they know roughly who might've done it. Micra's are a particular favourite round here. Every Micra in my estate has had the door peeled back at least once, and there's one burnt out and sitting in the Dodder as we speak.

Lowlife.

Wibbs

jonny24ie wrote:

Well I had a car with Full alarm system, Full stearing wheel lock and handbrake/gearstick lock!! I left it outside the Garda HQ for a while and when I went back my door was peeled back!!

Yes but your car was still there. That's the point I'm making jonny24ie. BTW, Did your steering lock cover the entire wheel? If it did I suspect they were after something in the car itself. The handbrake /gearstick lock is no deterrent. They're about as much use as tits on a bike. Then again if the scum had brains they might get a proper job and buy a car for themselves.

My G/F's current car has an alarm which I installed into it!! It would take alot of effort to rob her car but wait.......... they little toe rags tried till I went chasing them down the road with a steel bar in my hand!! For days they came back trying to get the car knowing that they wouldn't be able to start it!!

And again you didn't give them the satisfaction of actually taking her car, did you. That's the point. Your statement that "if they want it they'll get it" isn't exactly holding up by your experience, now is it?

If they can't take the car they will seriously damage it cos they would be that pi$$ed off!!

And the alternative is the little bags of pus get your car. No thankee very much.

Now pop onto any number of sites about cars and see how many get robbed on a daily basis!! WHat kind of alarms and cut off switches etc are fitted to them and you will see that your state,ent is very wrong!!

How were those alarms fitted? Were they good quality? Were they even armed. Did they have backup batteries for both the siren and the alarm itself? Did they do the usual thing and put the brain behind the dash where a child could find it? Did they have more than one circuit cut? Was their cutoff switch in plain view or easy to trace the wires back to the kill? Did they have anti hijack separate to the alarm cutting the fuel in a different place? Look, in the end you can't beat a towtruck(though a tilt switch/backup battery and all the lights going will attract serious attention), but you can make a car very very difficult for scum to steal.

As I have said before... If a scummer gets the idea into his/her head that they want your car.... nothing will stop them from trying!! If they don't get it then they will damage your pride and joy!!

Better than if the wastes of air take it IMHO. I wouldn't give the malnourished tracksuit wearing scum the satisfaction.

Wibbs

prospect wrote:

One of my top deterrent tips is light.

Install a 500w sensor floodlight pointing down in the area where your car is. Anyone goes near the car at night is not going to want to be so clearly visable.

Good plan. I can see in the not too distant future where even CCTV may become a requirement.:(

Hagar wrote:

Get the missus to sleep in the car. A win win situation.
If it's not stolen you win, if it is stolen you win, big time.

Well she'll make a more irritating and louder noise than an alarm.

overdriver wrote:

Well, they specialise in particular models, according to the local plod. So when say. an Astra goes missing, they know roughly who might've done it.

And the scum know how to hotwire them with more practice.

Micra's are a particular favourite round here. Every Micra in my estate has had the door peeled back at least once, and there's one burnt out and sitting in the Dodder as we speak.

You would wonder at what passes for the mentality in these idiots. You really would. I can understand the thinking behind the gangs targeting high end stuff, but some lassies* Micra FFS.

Lowlife.

Not worthy of life I would say. The pity is that they're even of limited use as organ donors.

*Not saying a Micra is purely a woman's car, but they usually are driven by first time drivers of both sexes, oul wans and women. Not exactly people who need that kind of grief. Pr!cks.

Kimbot

Wibbs wrote:

Yes but your car was still there. That's the point I'm making jonny24ie. BTW, Did your steering lock cover the entire wheel? If it did I suspect they were after something in the car itself. The handbrake /gearstick lock is no deterrent. They're about as much use as tits on a bike. Then again if the scum had brains they might get a proper job and buy a car for themselves..

The car was still there but the damage was unreal!! They pulled back the door, used a bar to try open the boot/bonnet/passenger door. Also there was nothing in the car at all!! I always keep everything open to show that!! They wanted the car plain and simple!!

Wibbs wrote:

And again you didn't give them the satisfaction of actually taking her car, did you. That's the point. Your statement that "if they want it they'll get it" isn't exactly holding up by your experience, now is it?
And the alternative is the little bags of pus get your car. No thankee very much.

I should have been more informative in my previous post!! The reason they didn't get the car was because a neighbour told me he saw someone put the window through and I went running out with a steel bar in my hand!! Now if I didn't they would have gotten the car!!

Wibbs wrote:

How were those alarms fitted? Were they good quality? Were they even armed. Did they have backup batteries for both the siren and the alarm itself? Did they do the usual thing and put the brain behind the dash where a child could find it? Did they have more than one circuit cut? Was their cutoff switch in plain view or easy to trace the wires back to the kill? Did they have anti hijack separate to the alarm cutting the fuel in a different place? Look, in the end you can't beat a towtruck(though a tilt switch/backup battery and all the lights going will attract serious attention), but you can make a car very very difficult for scum to steal.
Better than if the wastes of air take it IMHO. I wouldn't give the malnourished tracksuit wearing scum the satisfaction.

All the people I know that get alarms go for really expensive makes like Clifford with anti-hijack etc. They would be intalled by the best in the business and have all the back ups in the world!!
All their cutoffs would be hidden and some would have more than one!! All a scummer has to do is sit and watch from a distance to see where your hand goes when alarming your car!!

I do agree that you can deter them but I guarantee that out of all the cars stolen around the country more than 50% will have a tonne of security and detterants!!

Wibbs

jonny24ie wrote:

The car was still there but the damage was unreal!! They pulled back the door, used a bar to try open the boot/bonnet/passenger door. Also there was nothing in the car at all!! I always keep everything open to show that!! They wanted the car plain and simple!!

But they didn't get it, which means your security in this case worked.

I should have been more informative in my previous post!! The reason they didn't get the car was because a neighbour told me he saw someone put the window through and I went running out with a steel bar in my hand!! Now if I didn't they would have gotten the car!!

Got you. What stopped them in the days afterwards when they tried to steal it again?

All the people I know that get alarms go for really expensive makes like Clifford with anti-hijack etc. They would be intalled by the best in the business and have all the back ups in the world!!

The name doesn't mean much. Yes, Clifford(and other DEI industries alarms) are good. No argument there. The problem is often the install. If they're fitted correctly by the "best in the business" and armed and they're still nicked that easily then I would suggest there's something wrong with the install.

I've seen 3 clifford installs up close and one of them was frankly dire, the other two were Ok ish. . Also they had the backup battery siren, but none of the ones I saw or indeed know of have the backup battery for the alarm itself. I asked a Clifford dealer a few years back about the backup battery for the alarm brain itself and he seemed to have no clue. Enough said. None of them had a tilt switch either. Also the clifford shock sensor is useless. the proximty sensor is flash but seriously irritating. Now your average scum will be stopped by them or at least seriously delayed, but to an expert it can be a different story.

Classic one. People advertise the make of their alarm by putting a sticker on their window. Dumb. That just gives the expert the heads up. They'll know where the Clifford fitters(there are only a couple) are likely to have installed the brain and which circuits will be cut. That gives them a little more time to come up with ways of defeating that layer. If you yourself can access the brain of any alarm by taking down one panel in under 5 mins it's a bad install. If you want ideas where to locate the brain PM me. You'll want to be a bit handy, but it's not impossible. If you locate it correctly, even if you put a yellow sticker with "here's where the alarm brain is" it'll still be a pain in the arse to get to it.

As for the anti hijack if it's fitted correctly the car will stop down the road. Fullstop. Even if they find the switch, you have to enter a code to bypass it. If they don't know the code, game over for the scum.

All their cutoffs would be hidden and some would have more than one!! All a scummer has to do is sit and watch from a distance to see where your hand goes when alarming your car!!

What, they've got x-ray vision now? Look if it's that obvious where your cut off switch is by your body language inside your car it's in the wrong place. In any case it's just another layer. Fit a couple of dummy ones as well in the more obvious places. Layers, layers, layers. No one thing will stop them but 3 things have a bloody good chance.

I do agree that you can deter them but I guarantee that out of all the cars stolen around the country more than 50% will have a tonne of security and detterants!!

Yes so that's why 90% of the time the scum nick 10yr old civics and micras. Why don't the average scum try newer cars? Because the perception is the built in imobilisers are hard to bypass. Most of the high powered flash stuff is taken when the scum break into the house and take the keys. Even then the anti hijack if fitted will bring the car to a halt in short order, keys or not. If you have a well fitted kill switch as well they may not even get it started with the keys.

cormie

Wibbs wrote:

Most of the high powered flash stuff is taken when the scum break into the house and take the keys. Even then the anti hijack if fitted will bring the car to a halt in short order, keys or not.

How does this work exactly? How would an anti-hijack thingy come into play if the car had been started and driven normally?

Wibbs

cormie wrote:

How does this work exactly? How would an anti-hijack thingy come into play if the car had been started and driven normally?

Basically the anti hijack is an imobiliser that is separate to the main alarm. When you get into and start the car you enter a code into a switch(it can be hidden, doesn't have to be). This tells the anti hijack it's you. If the scum don't enter the code the anti hijack will slow and shut down the car after a time delay(and sound the siren, flash the lights etc). Without the code it won't start again. the "anti hijack" part comes in if say you're driving along and some scum forces you out of the car at traffic lights then the action of opening the door will arm the anti hijack and again it'll shut down after a time delay down the road.

Another important tip, always lock your doors when driving. I've known two women who have had their handbag snatched at traffic lights. It's not as common as before but I'd say it still happens.

OldmanMondeo

The one and only time I had a car "Stolen" was a 1984 Opel Kaddett. They scummers pushed the car to the end of the road to try and start it, not a chance. Kill Switch near the accelarator, didn't have to use my hands at all to turn it on/off. When I seen the car missing next morning, I had visions of the car burnt out in a field somewhere, until a neighbour call asking me to move my car as he couldn't get to work. Car found, stereo speakers and tools missing though. :mad:

Kimbot

Wibbs wrote:

Got you. What stopped them in the days afterwards when they tried to steal it again?

The fact that I was sitting in the front room with the lights out watching with the bar in my hand stopped them from getting it again!! I knew who they were so it wasn't that hard to spot them at the car!!

ianobrien

I like the idea of a switch.

As I mentioned previously, I'm in the habit of taking a HT lead and or the Rotor Arm. Now, if they try to start the car, it wont.

But, I have a switch on the dash doing nothing (it was for spot lights) but the wiring is still heading into the loom from the switch. If they try to take the car, it wont start and they'll probably think that the switch is a coil cut off or something!

Just another Idea. why not remove the fuel pump fuse along with a switch. The idea is that the fuse is an easy find, but the real protection (switch) is still not found.

My favourite place for them switches is behind the trim by the handbrake. The only way to find them is with the handbrake up, and put your finger in behind the trim to get at the switch.

Wibbs

ianobrien wrote:

I like the idea of a switch.

As I mentioned previously, I'm in the habit of taking a HT lead and or the Rotor Arm. Now, if they try to start the car, it wont.

A bit long winded but yes it works. I do it myself or something similar when I leave the car for any length of time

Just another Idea. why not remove the fuel pump fuse along with a switch. The idea is that the fuse is an easy find, but the real protection (switch) is still not found.

Good plan again.

My favourite place for them switches is....

And it's the first place I'd look, especially now you put it online. Now no offence but FFS scum have computers too and you've just given them the exact location of where you or anyone else may put a switch. Very bad plan. I would edit that pronto. Never give out your location of these things online or to "mates" or when you may sell the car to potential purchasers.

gary the great

I have one of the locks (that covers most of the sterering wheel) linked from the first page on my motor. Are they really any good? Are they the hardest of the steering locks to break?

And how would one go about breaking one (PM me if you know, id like to know so i can asses the quality of it!)

kdouglas

prospect wrote:

One of my top deterrent tips is light.

Install a 500w sensor floodlight pointing down in the area where your car is. Anyone goes near the car at night is not going to want to be so clearly visable.

just make sure you focus the sensor and the light properly, one of my neighbours has one of these, and it lights up half the street if even a cat walks past it

Jocksy

Not living in a scum infested aread usually works for me.

Wibbs

Jocksy wrote:

Not living in a scum infested aread usually works for me.

Great in theory, but I live nowhere near a scum infested area and I've had a car stolen. Thinking like that and ignoring basic security, sooner or later if you live in a city, you're going to get hit.

maidhc

Jocksy wrote:

Not living in a scum infested aread usually works for me.

Have to agree.

overdriver

I used not to live in a scummer area. I do now, and I haven't moved. They're breeding, lads.

Max_Damage

At the end of the day, this works the best:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/232777.stm



Works in South Africa!

Wibbs

overdriver wrote:

I used not to live in a scummer area. I do now, and I haven't moved. They're breeding, lads.

That'll be the well known effects of dutch gold on the mating habits of the greater spotted scumbag then.

Max Damage wrote:

At the end of the day, this works the best:

Oh how I wish I could me fry me up a scumburger.:D