Computing/Technology part of the LC?

Naikon

Well I don't really need any quantitative info, so I am just going to ask If people think it is viable to have a computing/programming/technology course
on the LC?

Personally I think if some sort of Computing course was introduced as basis for Third level it would be ideal.

I believe there would have to be a big emphases on practical programming skills because working with code is the only proper way to learn programming.

Maybe if "they" allowed a bit of "c" or PHP, It would attract some interest?
Even to teach fundamental concepts?
Or if a course was introduced, would it be a mess of a subject?
I have a feeling it could be an absolute mess.

Opinions?

Nehpets

Might aswell.

cocoa

barely any point whatsoever, and the soonest it could start working effectively is about 20 years time...
Who, exactly, is going to teach it? --> you need to start new qualification programmes --> 4 years
What, exactly, will the exam consist of? write a script in x language which achieves x? But...wait... the most efficient way to do that is to google for it... In order to achieve actually useful things, you'd have to surpass LC maths.
Who, in their right minds is going to take this subject, when all the university courses on computing, start from the very beginning? want to be bored out of your skull? do LC computing and then do the same damn thing for a year in uni...
That is, until LC computing becomes a requirement (this is an idealistic scenario), which would take at least 20 years from it's introduction... But then, eventually, you will theoretically have a higher standard of computing...

Seems, like an awful lot of hassle for some very mild benefits to me. I would advise coding in your spare time, there's plenty resources available (hell, you can get all the MIT course notes, for free) so if you want to study it, go right on ahead, but having it for the LC seems rather arbitrary.
edit: sorry about the cynicism, I just tend to have no faith whatsoever in anything linked to the LC/secondary education system...

ethernet

Please!

There are only so many times you can handle typing letters in Word. Wait until schools upgrade to Office 2007 and are faced with that ribbon instead of File, Edit, Format, etc. Time for some retraining!

Last time we were timetabled for computers was in second year. Can't say I'm that bothered either considering what we were doing.

Naikon

cocoa wrote:

Seems, like an awful lot of hassle for some very mild benefits to me. I would advise coding in your spare time, there's plenty resources available (hell, you can get all the MIT course notes, for free) so if you want to study it, go right on ahead, but having it for the LC seems rather arbitrary.
edit: sorry about the cynicism, I just tend to have no faith whatsoever in anything linked to the LC/secondary education system...

I think you have pretty much summed it up for me:)
It would be a bit of a mess to introduce and support.

Naikon

ethernet wrote:

Please!

There are only so many times you can handle typing letters in Word.

LOL, very true:D

cocoa

@ ethernet
ok, several things, that would be a matter with your school, not with the introduction of a new course across the country. DI would be surprised and annoyed if any public school bought Office 2007 because it's probably just more of the same trash with new graphics and it costs money and you can get better for free AND you don't bloody well need it, not at secondary level, not a chance. I know of universities which are still running Office 2003 in most computer labs. Nw, in the unlikely event of a school managing to get Office 07 without paying, then they can go right ahead, obviously but I really doubt that such a thing, in itself, necessitates any sort of retraining.

Listen, I sympathise, I really do, I had to sit and retype letters in 2nd and 3rd year for 3 classes a week, I know that sucks, but it's no reason to introduce an LC subject on computing, it's a reason for individual schools to draw up programmes for proper computer courses (if they will insist on having computer which are, in the majority of cases, not really necessary) where students can actually gain some benefit instead of being bored out of their skulls the whole time.

On another note, if an LC subject in which you earned points for doing tasks in MS Office was ever introduced, I would be very angry indeed...

Naikon

ECDL is one of the reasons I refused to do transistion year.
"but you could study for your ECDL":)
That course is a joke, its basic data entry office skills not "computers" as my school puts it.

I cant see why schools and Universities cant use perfectly usable solutions like open office.

PurpleFistMixer

I think anyone who would be likely to pick the subject is probably already involved in teaching themself the relevant information. It'd be nice to have it as a subject so people who already know the stuff get by easily, but undoubtedly it'd just get screwed up like the ECDL.
Computer Driving Licence? More like (ridiculously expensive) Microsoft Office Licence... grr.

Naikon

If it was introduced, they would need to have something a bit more....computery:D than basic word processing skills, but yeah I think it would turn out as a glorified ECDL.

ethernet

Naikon wrote:

If it was introduced, they would need to have something a bit more....computery:D than basic word processing skills, but yeah I think it would turn out as a glorified ECDL.

I agree. A basic module should involve administering servers without a GUI!

cocoa, I realise that free alternatives exist. I use OO.org myself. I will admit that Office 2007 has come on leaps and bounds in terms of exploiting its features that were, until now, stuck too deep in sub-menus from the menu bar. New schools may have no choice -- the government will probably buy the latest version with a volume license. This happened in our shack when upgrading the IT infrastructure.

You were more misfortunate than I in having to endure three classes of that per week. We only had one. How about having levels for computing -- honours, pass, foundation ... :rolleyes:

cocoa

ethernet wrote:

cocoa, I realise that free alternatives exist. I use OO.org myself. I will admit that Office 2007 has come on leaps and bounds in terms of exploiting its features that were, until now, stuck too deep in sub-menus from the menu bar. New schools may have no choice -- the government will probably buy the latest version with a volume license. This happened in our shack when upgrading the IT infrastructure.

You were more misfortunate than I in having to endure three classes of that per week. We only had one. How about having levels for computing -- honours, pass, foundation ... :rolleyes:

levels would certainly be a good idea, but to be honest I still feel that there isn't really that much scope for it, and I would much rather not have the subject, than add another absurdly easy A1 goldmine to the list...

I actually don't have that much problem with schools using MS office, it wouldn't be my personal preference, but (though extremely messily) it gets the job done, and to a lot of people, they're too familiar with it to try anything else. That's fine, but what I would strongly disagree with, is any sort of heavy spending on keeping it up to date.

To be honest, at the moment I think computer labs in secondary schools across the country are going to waste. I mean, it seems like a great idea on paper "our schools need computer labs" but lets face it, the most happening in those labs is an ECDL, maybe some research on the 'net and more often than both of these, games. i.e., nothing that 90% of the population couldn't do on the computer at home.

But, the computers are here now, it's too late to go back so surely we can find something constructive to do with them? Personally, I think graphics, especially animated ones, can sometimes convey things a lot faster and more clearly than textbooks, in certain subjects (not maths, obviously) so it makes perfect sense for the physics class to spend some time in the lab once in a while (not very often, really) same for other subjects where such aid is helpful.

But really, that's nothing which couldn't be achieved much more easily with a single screen in a classroom (dare I say projector?) and it's not often, so our ideal lab is still empty a lot of the time.

I've been racking my brain and I've decided the only use for a comp lab in school (which cannot be achieved at home) is for lessons on programming and other such subjects. There's a number of teaching aids and games available which are positively ideal (squeak and robot battle come to mind) and of course instruction on website building would also be welcome, but really, none of this works without the student's initiative, and mostly the teacher is on standby, ready to help in the unlikely event that a question is unanswered in all FAQs but for the most part redundant. Suitable, perhaps, for a transition year module.

No, I give up, secondary school computer labs are almost entirely surplus to requirements. (I say almost, a small number of computers can be useful for say, the school magazine team etc to work on, but only say, 5 or so...)

Naikon

ethernet wrote:

I agree. A basic module should involve administering servers without a GUI!

Or hacking the Unix/BSD/UNIX kernel:D:eek::)

You know what I am actually glad there is no computing subject, as it would have probably put me off because the department would make it into another "learn by rote" subject.

philologos

I'd wait to University to be honest with you. The IT teacher in my school is dire , and I doubt there would be a lot of 2nd level teachers willing to teach kids programming. I taught myself a lot of server side scripting (PHP) however but I have very little confidence in a teacher wanting to do it if they were skilled enough due to jobs in the IT sector being better paid than a teaching job in a classroom.

ethernet

Naikon wrote:

Or hacking the Unix/BSD/UNIX kernel:D:eek::)

You know what I am actually glad there is no computing subject, as it would have probably put me off because the department would make it into another "learn by rote" subject.

Speaking of hacking the kernel, you might like to download this O'Reilly book from Greg Kroah's site on kernel hacking.

So true -- I don't know about you, but I probably wouldn't do a stoke if such a subject was offered! And, as Jakkass said, you could be landed with a dire teacher.

Naikon

Hey, thanks Ethernet thats a really handy guide:)

@Jackass, there is alot of truth in your comment.
Most of the "IT" teachers in my school hate teaching it in its current form, which is understandable as it takes ages to setup and teach the basics, let alone try to cover topics.
But yeah, I dont think Teachers would be willing to teach programming, and strangly alot of teachers in my school hate computers in general.

AdMMM

I can't see it being in anyway practical. Computers and Technology are evolving so fast that the information that you would have learned would be irrelavent by time you are examined. Let's take Web Development as an example. If you take a look at the time machine at The Internet Archive and search for (almost) any site you will see a drastic difference between then and now and practices that used to be the norm then (eg: tables) have now been dumped in favour of CSS-centric design.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Computing and Technology as part of the LC but I can't imagine any way for it to be effectively taught within the time constraints of the LC.

cocoa

|.Murderer.| wrote:

I can't see it being in anyway practical. Computers and Technology are evolving so fast that the information that you would have learned would be irrelavent by time you are examined.

O_o I'm as much against the idea as you are, but I don't really think that your logic holds, a lot of universities have modules on web development among other things... It's moving fast, not that fast, I was using css five years ago, I'm still using it now, css level 2 and 3 came out but everything in level 1 remains relevant and useful...

JC 2K3

Naikon wrote:

ECDL is one of the reasons I refused to do transistion year.
"but you could study for your ECDL":)
That course is a joke, its basic data entry office skills not "computers" as my school puts it.

It's about being able to use programs effectively. Could you honestly now, using your program of choice, build a database, run queries, create macros etc.

It's all basic data entry/administration, but it's a necessary skill for many jobs involving computers.

PurpleFistMixer wrote:

Computer Driving Licence? More like (ridiculously expensive) Microsoft Office Licence... grr.

You do know that you can take the ECDL in Open Office, Star Office, or whatever program(s) you wish so long as they do what you need them to do? Hell you could even take your ECDL in Linux if you wanted to.

Microsoft have their own qualification which is exclusively geared towards MS Office products, however ECDL is not geared towards any particular program.

|.Murderer.| wrote:

I can't see it being in anyway practical. Computers and Technology are evolving so fast that the information that you would have learned would be irrelavent by time you are examined. Let's take Web Development as an example. If you take a look at the time machine at The Internet Archive and search for (almost) any site you will see a drastic difference between then and now and practices that used to be the norm then (eg: tables) have now been dumped in favour of CSS-centric design.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Computing and Technology as part of the LC but I can't imagine any way for it to be effectively taught within the time constraints of the LC.

Programming is programming. The basics don't change. HTML isn't really programming.

PurpleFistMixer

JC 2K3 wrote:

You do know that you can take the ECDL in Open Office, Star Office, or whatever program(s) you wish so long as they do what you need them to do? Hell you could even take your ECDL in Linux if you wanted to.

Microsoft have their own qualification which is exclusively geared towards MS Office products, however ECDL is not geared towards any particular program.

Curious. We were never informed. In fact, we weren't told much about the ECDL.
I'd opt to do it in MS Office anyway as I have experience with it, but my problem was that I was expecting it to not be entirely Office stuff. I might just be so biased because we've only done office-based modules so far. Them being... 4/7 of the thing, afaik. Maybe even more.

JC 2K3

Well, I dunno what your were expecting, but the ECDL isn't a programming degree or anything other than basic PC skills degree geared towards working in an office. The 7 modules are Databases, Spreadsheets, Presentations, Word Processing, Basic Computer Theory, Internet and File Management. It is ridiculously easy, but considering the amount I've heard about students doing it in 4th year failing it I'd say they don't care about it and perhaps at that stage it's a bit of a waste of time.

PurpleFistMixer

I was expecting a little less office stuff, I gotta say.
I don't think it's as easy as everyone makes it out to be. I mean, for those of us competent enough to get online and whatnot, it's essentially easy (though, we're doing access currently and I can't say I've ever used it before), but I've seen lots of people fail tests. Fail them twice even. Or more. Costing an additional 8 euro each time, too.
Of course this I attribute partially to the fact that the disc is completely and utterly dire at teaching you any of the material. Unless you have four free hours to listen to someone speaking ridiculously slowly. Grr. So much frustration with ECDL.

JC 2K3

lol, I forgot they had discs now. I did my ECDL back when I was like 10(my mom works in the ICS) and an advanced spreadsheets module 2 years ago. When I did my ECDL originally I remember just looking through the book I had and doing various tasks I was unfamiliar with(really just Excel and Access). The fact you can use the help in MS Office during your test makes it a lot easier though.

Nehpets

Do you think it's worth doing? How much is it?

spurious

There already is a chance to do IT in the Leaving Certificate.
There is a mandatory IT course within the Leaving Cert. Applied and also an elective vocational specialism in IT.

On boards.ie you are talking to a group who are already computer-literate and interested in IT - this does not reflect the whole population. Schools already struggle to provide the low level of IT that is offered to the general school population, plus timetable-wise, where would you get the extra time for another subject? Would you extend the school day/week?

cocoa

spurious wrote:

On boards.ie you are talking to a group who are already computer-literate and interested in IT - this does not reflect the whole population. Schools already struggle to provide the low level of IT that is offered to the general school population, plus timetable-wise, where would you get the extra time for another subject? Would you extend the school day/week?

ok, agree about the misrepresentation of general opinion thing, but if you think time tabling is a problem, then you haven't a clue what you're talking about... Over half of applied maths students study the subject extra curricularly...

Could you elaborate on the IT already in the leaving, I heard something about comal being included in the maths course once upon a time, but bar that, IT in the leaving is news to me... when you say IT, do you mean along the lines of ECDL, or actual programming?

JC 2K3

There're sections on IT in some of the revamped Technology subjects coming in next year.

see http://www.t4.ie

PurpleFistMixer

Nehpets wrote:

Do you think it's worth doing? How much is it?

It costs 130 for the disc and 8 euro every time you fail an exam.

As far as worth it... I don't know. I'm not sure how highly employers value it. It's easy enough if you know general computery stuff, so I think the only reason to not do it is the crazy costs.

spurious

cocoa wrote:

Could you elaborate on the IT already in the leaving, I heard something about comal being included in the maths course once upon a time, but bar that, IT in the leaving is news to me... when you say IT, do you mean along the lines of ECDL, or actual programming?

More along ECDL lines at the moment. It's available as a specialism in the Leaving Cert. Applied. Not all LCA courses offer it.

It more or less covers what a computer-literate person (boards user) would take for granted - manipulating text, basic webpages, graphic and sound editing, plus the old standards of Access/Excel/Powerpoint/Publisher and the like.

There is no reason why it could not contain a programming module - it would just require a school to submit their proposed local syllabus to the LCA inspectors, along with the proposed assessment 'task' and if accepted, the school could run it the next year. The LCA offers far more opportunities to adapt the syllabus to local needs (teacher and student interests) than the standard Leaving does. Unfortunately the LCA has (very undeservedly) a poor image, usually among people who actually do not know what goes on in it, but feel they have the right to rubbish it. Some schools have to take a share of the blame for it too, as what is offered in some schools to LCA students is a disgrace.

JC 2K3

Why would LCA students need a programming module? If they wanted to do programming they'd do a real LC and get the points for a Computer Science course(they're really low).

PurpleFistMixer

Because as part of the varied subjects they do in LCA, they would like to do IT/programming?

spurious

JC 2K3 wrote:

Why would LCA students need a programming module? If they wanted to do programming they'd do a real LC and get the points for a Computer Science course(they're really low).

There are a number of reasons why a person doing the LCA might like to do programming.

Do you think someone with an LCA could not enter a Computer Science course?

Your question shows your prejudice. Does 'the real LC' not teach you to avoid judging things you do not know about?

AdMMM

JC 2K3 wrote:

Why would LCA students need a programming module? If they wanted to do programming they'd do a real LC and get the points for a Computer Science course(they're really low).

I'm guessing that you don't really know how the LCA works...

JC 2K3

|.Murderer.| wrote:

I'm guessing that you don't really know how the LCA works...

No, guess not. I thought it was an exam geared towards people who would be taking on apprenticeships rather than going to college and included subjects like Electronics, Engineering, Hair and Beauty, Woodwork, Metalwork, Basic PC Skills etc.

I can't see how Computer Programming would be useful in this context, but perhaps I am wrong as to the nature of the exam?

stepperupper

Whatever about a computing course, after 3 hrs and 20 mins of a Pre-LC English exam the other day there's only one thing I would cry out for, the option to type for the LC. I mean I can type close to 60 words per minute so that would be class. My hand was bloody hanging after English. Some things like Economics require graphs which can be done on a PC but some people may find them easier to put on paper so I think it would be great if you could both type and write. I mean if you number the questions what can go wrong. I'm sure there are programmes that lock you into MS word so...... TYPING FOR THE LC!!!