TV company monopoly

Sar!

Hi all,

I would like to know if anyone else is experiencing the following:

Myself and my husband live in a really lovely development complex of 260 apartments on the north side of dublin. The development is around 3 years old and we bought our place at the start when it was brand new.

When we purchased we were told at the time that all apartments came with cat 5 cabling throughout and were all set up to have a modern cable system in place for all services. Of course naturally we assumed this meant NTL or something similar. Sadly not.

What transpired was that the construction company had done an exclusive deal with another TV service provider called Broadworks who have total and utter exclusivity within the development. This means that NTL are prevented entry as are any other competitor.

Firsly as many of you may know in an apartment you are not allowed have a satellite dish as its a breach of the lease agreement. Sky is not an option. Broadworks are also not a digital service provider and nor did they offer Sky sports until very recently. Even with this offer of SKy sports its about 2 - 3 times the price of NTL for one Sports channel. Broadworks also does not offer anywhere near what NTL to and overall signal is poor with the cost having also been increased since January. They also dont even offer Sky one.

Bottom line is that we have no option other than to go with Broadworks or else we do not have any TV service at all. We have been told by the management company that this will remain this way until such time as the builders have sold all units. There has been one unit that has never been sold at all and for all we know it may remain this way forever.

I would like to know a) how this sort of thing is allowed in Ireland currently and b) if anyone else is going through this where they live?

Why are we still having the ever increasing monopoly problems in this country - if its not ESB and their increases and Bord Gais with theirs then its Eircom or now what looks like will be VHI - this is crazy and you would think by now Ireland would have addressed this....

bmaxi

There have been several threads on this subject. Have a look at this and do a search of the forum.http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055043471&referrerid=&highlight=management+companies

Sar!

Thanks BMaxi - I was more looking at this from a legal standpoint but it has now gone to the competition authority as well for them to deal with. Also with regards to other link you sent on (many thanks makes for an interesting read!) NTL is available in our area just not allowed in the development and i wasnt sure how they could possibly be enforcing this.

gerryo

It does strike me as being a bit of a legal minefield. Technically, if you pay a TV licence you are entitled to purchase & install equipment to receive the signals (talking about RTE & other locals here to avoid sat disk issues) & to install the equipment in a manner that would enable you to receive sufficient signal strength to watch TV without requiring the services of an external TV service provider. This is why RTE has a transmitter network.

If it is normal in your area to install an outside aerial for reception of off air signals, then you should not be prevented from doing so & if you live in an appartment then provision should be made for the cabling of individual apartments to the roofspace to privide dwellers access to communal aerials or to install their own. It's only a short ideological jump to substitute a satellite dish for an aerial.

This issue seems to crop up again & again, I'd like to see someone win a court battle to resolve it once & for all.

antoinolachtnai

This is not really true. A tv licence only gives you the right to possess tv apparatus, it doesn't give you the right to install antennae.

Really, you are in dispute with your management company and that's what has to be resolved. Have you made it clear to the management company that you are in dispute with them? TCA might be helpful to bring some heat. Your letter to TCA has to be very well phrased to be effective.

Sar!

Thanks all for the helpful responses!
TCA actually got in touch with me with a very long but detailed letter stating that there are a number of things they have to do in order to try and get a resolution. The main point in this is they need to contact the Mgt. company. I did speak to the Mgt. co. telling them this was going to happen and even though they say that they will glady speak to TCA they cannot prove that there is an exclusive agreement in place between the construction company (builders) and Broadworks the TV company. When i asked why they do not have a copy of the agreement even though they seem to enforce us only having one solution here they said that it wasnt up to them to go and get a copy of the agreement. All seems very fishy like no one wants to take responsiblity. Im guessing my next port of call will have to be getting TCA to ring the Mgt. co.

antoinolachtnai

Let's get this straight - the builders/management company are denying that there is an exclusive arrangement?

I would be surprised if TCA 'rings' people up. They usually write a letter stating allegations. Receiving a letter from TCA is a pretty serious matter. TCA can subpoena documents and can cross examine witnesses. Could be a fairly long process though.

Antoin.

gerryo

antoinolachtnai wrote:

This is not really true. A tv licence only gives you the right to possess tv apparatus, it doesn't give you the right to install antennae.

ISTR the broadcasting act considers antennae as part of the "receiving apparatus", you can get fines for having a TV aerial even if you have no TV. Very restrictive, but I believe this is the case, as I remember thinking the legislation was poorly drafted, then again, maybe this was the real intention.

Anyway my point is, an antenna is considered part of the reception equipment, therefore if you purchase a TV licence & are prevented from installing an antenna, "technically" your rights are being infringed.

Would have to be proven in a court of law, but I think the consumer might just win the case, it might come down to a "right of way/right of use" or similar ruling.

As I see it, the provision of TV in a communinal building is similar to the provision of the electricity supply. Each dweller has their own electricity meter, it would be possible for dwellers to change to a different electricity supplier, so why not a TV company?

Same goes for the phone lines (LLU is a factor).

I expect we'll hear about this problem more & more over the coming years as the number of apartment dwellers rises.

antoinolachtnai

It is true that an antenna is considered apparatus, and this is deliberate in the drafting.

Having a licence from the government only gives you rights in respect to the government. That is, you are not in breach of the telegraphy acts as long as you have the appropriate licence.

However you may be in breach of other agreements, for example, your agreement with your landlord. It doesn't give you rights as regards your landlord, i.e., you can't force a landlord to allow you to have apparatus (say a balcony antenna or dish), on the basis that you have a piece of paper from the government.

Similarly, you could be in breack of planning regulations. The fact that you have a licence doesn't exempt you from the requirement that your apparatus complies with planning permission.

If you switch electricity supplier, the network into your home remains exactly the same. The same is true for when you switch telephone provider. Getting a different cable company in, on the other hand, requires new cables to be run, or at the very least, for the new cable company to have access to the building.

jaggeh

they are owner occupiers

Sar!

Thanks for all the posts on this however yes we are an owner of the apartment and as part of the lease agreement which everyone signs when they live in a development with apartments (regardless of whether they rent or own) it states that you cannot erect any sort of anntenna, dish etc on your property or on the roof if you happen to be on the top floor...If you do its a breach of the lease agreement and apparently they can get a court order to get it removed - this has happened to people who tried to have Sky Dishes...

This whole situtation wouldnt have come about if the builder/construction co. hadnt somehow managed to get an exclusive agreement with Broadworks blocking NTL from entering the development. Legally i just dont see how they can get away with it and seemingly so long as the builder continues to own at least one property in the development (that has never been sold suspiciously enough) then they can continue to have this "relationship" with the tv provider.

They have even gone so far as to put posters up in the development stating that Broadworks are exclusively available within the development and until a copy of the agreement that they have with each other is found by the Mgt. co. (or whoever) then they can continue to do this. The Mgt. co have basically said in not so many words that this isnt their problem to go and chase.

Ill attempt to talk to TCA again tomorrow to follow up on their letter and see if they will contact the Mgt. Co. as without that im not sure what can be done. Also since writing this post I have found out that we are not the only development who is affected by this sort of thing (more in Swords apparently)....I wonder if in fact this will become all to common in coming years..

Futureman

If you signed this agreement when you moved in, then you should have a copy - read it. If it just specifies No Satellite Dishes, then call NTL for a cable installation. If it specifically says you can only use Broadworks, then tough.

I personally, would go around and get signatures from all of the residents, then take it direct to the management company, and threaten to withhold their fees unless they cut the bullsh*t immediately. Broadworks are NOT providing the service they said they would (it's worse than you expected with crappy reception, yeah?), so THEY are in breach of their agreement, as their service is sub standard quality. Then I'd tell them if they want to take it further, they can take all the residents to court.
The power is with the people - I reckon at least 80% feel the same way, and will sign if asked. The management company will be left with no choice!

Paulw

Futureman wrote:

I personally, would go around and get signatures from all of the residents, then take it direct to the management company, and threaten to withhold their fees unless they cut the bullsh*t immediately.

Ok, that's a stupid approach. You should never withhold paying your management fees, since the only damage that does is to the development itself, not the management agent.

Yes, by all means, gather as many people together as possible and demand that the management company deals with the issue.

Also, you should demand from Broadworks and any other party (builder) a copy of this exclusive agreement. Send them a request in writing and give them 21 days to produce it. Other than that, inform them that without proof of a formal agreement you will be installing NTL.

antoinolachtnai

Well, that won't work. NTL won't enter the premises without permission from the landlord (aka the management company). Don't recommend not paying service charge either. If you can get TCA riled up, do it that way. But you need to think things out and structure your argument as well as you can.

mick.fr

Myself I would not even bother, I would buy a dish to get Sky or get my other landlords mates to agree to install a central one on the top of the building roof to share it between all of us.

What I did before and it worked very well.

Management companies are sometimes forgetting you pay them to manage the garbage, cut the grass etc...

gerryo

antoinolachtnai wrote:

It is true that an antenna is considered apparatus, and this is deliberate in the drafting.

Having a licence from the government only gives you rights in respect to the government. That is, you are not in breach of the telegraphy acts as long as you have the appropriate licence.

Yes!, the licence only gives you the right to use the equipment, however, if you are prevented from fully using the equipment,say through interference from an unauthorised transmission, you can complain (used to be the post office, probably Comreg now), & the problem would be investigated.

This demonstrates there is an expectation that you can operate the equipment in the manner intended (reception of TV programs)

antoinolachtnai wrote:

However you may be in breach of other agreements, for example, your agreement with your landlord. It doesn't give you rights as regards your landlord, i.e., you can't force a landlord to allow you to have apparatus (say a balcony antenna or dish), on the basis that you have a piece of paper from the government. .

True!, however it is unreasonable to prevent someone from receiving a service that they have paid for, & it is not unusual for such agrements to be overturned by courts when proved to place onerous or unreasonable conditions on tenants.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Similarly, you could be in breack of planning regulations. The fact that you have a licence doesn't exempt you from the requirement that your apparatus complies with planning permission.

Also possible, however I've not heard of (please correct me if there is evidence) residential buildings being refused permission to install antennae to receive terrestrial TV signals, especially if it is for RTE1/2/TV3/TG4.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

If you switch electricity supplier, the network into your home remains exactly the same. The same is true for when you switch telephone provider. Getting a different cable company in, on the other hand, requires new cables to be run, or at the very least, for the new cable company to have access to the building.

If each individual apartment has a Co-ax cable for TV, it must terminate somewhere, probably at a central point where all the other tenants cables terminate. So why not allow someone to install a communal antenna, does not have to be visible? Also, what if a phone company wanted to run their own wires or fiber into the building, are they to be prevented from doing so if tenants want it?

I think it is unfair to charge people (especially pensioners) for basic TV services while preventing them from availing of other (posibly cheaper) suppliers. I believe tenants should be permitted to decided who supplies what services to the building in a democratic manner. If there is a majority agreement, then fine.

antoinolachtnai

The reason you never hear about complaints about putting up aerials is because there is a planning exemption in most (but not all) circumstances for roof aerials.

The problem in this case is that the tenant (i.e., the homeowner) has signed a lease forbidding the installation of this equipment without consent of the landlord (i.e., the management company). I agree that this is problematic (see below) but for the moment, this is the practical difficulty.

Forbidding someone from putting a sat dish on their balcony is not onerous. It is usually a requirement of planning permission that dishes not be erected in this way.

The licence fee is just a licence fee, you aren't actually paying for anything other than the licence, at least in strict legal terms. In this case, the landlord isn't preventing the tenant from having an internal aerial. Even if he was, there isn't necessary much the authority could do. Even in cases where there is radio interference and for some reason the interference can't be removed, you won't get a refund on your licence because of it (although it might be interesting to try).

All that said, I completely agree that this carry-on is a load of nonsense and NTL should be allowed in if the tenants want them. They should of course be allowed to install a communal antenna system. The problem is (presumably) that the landlord forbids NTL to enter the building to install it and there's not much NTL can do until the tenants and landlord sort it out.

Raytown Rocks

Hi All

Just from a technical perspective, even if you go to NTL, they will probably be unable to connect you up to their network anyway considering they were never allowed on site in the first place.
For them to be able to provide service to your apartments, they have to have their network on site. I.E main cables run into the apartment block from outside, and then terminating at central points within the structure to which each individual apartment has a cable running to.
If the builder has only ever let Broadworks onto the site during construction, NTL most likely have no network to which you can connect.
If that is the case a satellite dish may well be the way you have to go.
A phone call to NTL stating your address details may be an idea to see if in fact they can help.

Chef

Sar!

Funny thing is in this case would you believe that all the residents (including myself) have looked around the grounds outside each block in the development and there are NTL boxes in the ground outside - they were the ones who laid the cables in the first place for the development!! Thats how weird this whole thing is!

(Also we have no choice but to pay our Mgt. fee otherwise they could end up taking us to court - little option here im afraid even though they arent up to scratch at all - this is a very small sample of it! Also eventually if no fees are paid you would find it impossible to sell your property as all outstanding fees + interest would have to paid in order to sell your property.)

Someone very close to us erected a dish at Christmas btw and the Mgt co. got someone to come out onto their property and remove the dish while the people were out - any dishes that remain now have the owners being brought to court to have them removed because they are harder to get at!

Oh and letter went to TCA today with all the answers that they were looking for so fingers crossed they follow up on it!

s-t-e-p-h-e-n

Well, I live in a Duplex in Malahide and I'm having the same problem as Sar!
The thing about it is since I live in a duplex and I have an attic, a powerful MMDS aeriel can be placed in there, another option of mine is to put in a velux window in the attic (loophole in the management contract allows this!)
and install a sat-dish inside the attic with visibility through the window BUT, that would be tricky due to having to align the dish correctly! But if your apartment is an mixed estate (an estate with both houses and apartments) and your apartment is close to a house (of which you know the owners very well) then its possible that if they have SKY it could be sent by a wireless video sender and you could pay half their bill! Although those 3 options might not be any good to you, they're currently happening in my estate and are proving worthwhile! But at the moment your best bet is probably to follow things up with TCA!

antoinolachtnai

Well, really what you have to do is to get control of the management company.

If the builder says he is holding on to one unit then one option would be to offer to buy it from him. If he refuses to sell it at or around market value, then you might be able to deem it sold, since the builder is planning to hold it long-term. This is all heading for a battle of wills and a tricky legal situation.

Sar!

Nice idea s-t-e-p-h-e-n but im not sure i would want a dish in my spare room - i have heard you can get tiny dishes though in the UK that are alot smaller than our sky ones hear and could be hidden alot better.

And definitely antoinolachtnai thats what needs to happen but i heard tonight from a friend of mine that there is a development out in Swords that was built around 7 years back and the builder is still holding onto one/more properties so that they can still have control of the common areas. Personally I dont see how this is the builders interests at all!!! It seems a little odd as surely they are better off getting the money for the apartment/s or is it because the longer they keep it the higher the value gets so eventually they will make a massive mark up? Surely there should be some government body or something out there regulating this sort of thing and penalising the builder.

I see as well some interesting info on Mgt. Co's. Looks like in a few years they could be regulated alot better fingers crossed...

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/Campaigns/Property_Management_Companies/

Paulw

Another useful page about such issues

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/cablemonopoly/

Sar!

Many thanks for the link Paulw - have signed it and am getting everyone I know in here to sign it also. Any idea where these petitions go if anywhere?

It would appear from looking at other comments on it that there are other developments who are being made use Broadworks too exclusively - makes me think if Broadworks would get any business at all were they not forced on people. Its the only thing thats keeping them in business by the looks of it...