MTTs - Clashing with another big stack on the bubble and getting crippled

BobSloane

These 2 hands happened to me recently on the bubble of 2 different MTTs. The situations and cards are similar and both trouble me slightly afterwards.

Hand 1. I'm the big stack at the table with about 40k. BB is the other big stack at the table with 34k. I have not been routinely raising his blinds or beating up on him in general.
blinds 500/1000
Hero C/O [4d5d]
Villian BB

Folded to CO. I raise to 3000. Button folds small blind, calls bb calls.

Flop 3d 6d 10c {9000}

SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 5000
SB folds, BB raises to 12000, Hero....? (well I raised all-in)


Hand 2
Pretty much identical set-up - in terms of chip counts, my late position raise etc. BB has been at table for about 2 orbits and has appeared sane up until this.
I have 8d10d.
Flop 7d 9d Kc. SB checks , BB moves all-in, Hero..?(well yes I called)

Obviously I lost both hands. Would have been overwhelming chip leader in either tournament had I won and instead got crippled both times. Did I play them right..? I feel this situation will arise again

ianmc38

Bad beat sticky. Both are instacalls.

jimbling

bit harsh iain, sounds like he is actually looking for advice and playing marginal situation against rival big stacks.

BobSloane, you played both hands fine.

Hand 1. That is a dream flop, and it's also a dream position to re-raise all in. You had quite a large Fold Equity there too (unless player was a known loosey goosey) as you played it like an overpair. Even with a low fold equity you are not in the least afraid of a call. Generally you will be a favourite in the hand.

Hand 2. Here there is obviously no Fold Equity, so your hand loses a bit of value. So the question here is should you call on a draw against another big stack late in a tournament?
Well, that really is a personal opinion. It's a matter of how much you want to win the tournament, or are you happy with sneaking up the pay structure. 95% of tournaments I play I am only concerned with the top 3 spots therefore I would make this call every single time.

You have a chance to put yourself into a massive chip lead with a strong holding.

As iain said, it's just a bad beat really (not in % win chance terms, but in the big stack here, big stack gone sense). The next time you win it and go on to do well in the tournament.

These sort of decisions can be difficult but when you come to terms with the idea they will be second nature...

phantom_lord

these aren't maginal hands or odinary draws, they're monster oesf draws, ship it all in.

ianmc38

It's not harsh at all. Getting it all in in both cases is really standard. If he'd won both hands he wouldn't be questioning his actions.

jimbling

well ian, bob is a relative newbie to the forums. I have no idea what standard of player he is.
Calling huge pots with draws is not something that is standard for some people, especially people new to the game.

A massive number of posts go up here asking for advice that is completely obvious and standard. Why do we not tell them all to go to the bad beat sticky. Beginners need advice too.

Perhaps you know more about the OP than me to make the judgement on his reason for posting.

P_L
They are monster draws yes, but it is still a marginal edge.

Dont get me wrong, i ship it every time. But I was just trying to be helpful and explain to bob why that is the case.

ianmc38

Ok new answer.

Very unlucky not to hit in either with a flush draw and open ended straight draw. In my opinion you played both perfectly.

Ian xxx

BobSloane

Thanks guys. I probably just posted them here as a confidence thing as I don't want to lose whatever betting courage I have. The first hand villian showed Ad10d for top pair and the nut flush draw. I was expecting to see a set. The flush came on the river but not the str. flush unfortunately.
The second hand came up the next day and the first hand was still in my head of course. I didn't like calling as opposed to pushing as I felt it likely that villian had the nut flush draw again or Kx diamnds. So I called anyway and he shows A8o. His ace held up. I was sickened!

I don't really consider them bad beats. I was a dog in the first hand.
Does anyone ever fold OESF draws?
I strongly questioned Paul wasikas sexual orientation when he did it on the FT at the wsop last year. And still do. But that was 3 handed..?

Anyway thanks for the advice. I'll keep shipping them if the situation arises. Can't possibly lose 3 in a row can I?

By the way my strategy or goal as such in these tournaments is to make the final table with average chip count or better as I feel this gives me a good shot at the top 3. Is this good enough thinking? I was well on track in both of these until these hands occured. I have no problem as such with hand 1 - a type of drawing cooler that I thought I played well. I included it to give some insight into my fears in hand 2. Does anyone even consider folding hand 2? Less than 10% of your stack in the pot facing a bet for about 80% more. I know it was a good call as he had A8o but how likely was Kx diamonds here?
I didn't post these as bad beats or for sympathy. Neither is a bad beat as such

mdwexford

never fold an OESF draw, NEVER

wasika threw away any chance he had to win the WSOP when he folded that hand, worst fold ive ever seen

connie147

Im in full agreement that both of these situations merit being all in after the flop, but is there anyone out there who might agree that raising into the only other big stack on the table with marginal holdings is perhaps not the best play?
By all means raise the mid stacks and keep the pressure on, but why get involved with the only stack that can do serious damage when youve a poor starting hand?