No driveway, no tax, but...

cormie

Hi,
Just curious as to whether it's ok to park a vehicle on a public road without tax if there is no driveway (private property) but you have a residents parking permit for the road does anyone know?

Any feedback appreciated:)

KTRIC

Nope, not legal. You need to have a vehicle taxed before it touches a public road.

Guy:Incognito

Wouldnt have thought so.Residents parkign is just to stop you havign to pay for parking so it would be the same as parking there and filling the meter.

unkel

What the lads said. If it's not taxed, best take it off the public road

Wishbone Ash

Although it's illegal, if the car is not in use, the Gardaí generally won't bother you. If the car is an eyesore (e.g. an wreck with flat tyres etc.), causes obstruction or is reported by neighbours then it might be a different story.

cyrusdvirus

Can I ask the question. Why no tax?

unkel

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Although it's illegal, if the car is not in use, the Gardaí generally won't bother you. If the car is an eyesore (e.g. an wreck with flat tyres etc.), causes obstruction or is reported by neighbours then it might be a different story.

That's my experience too. Very risky though if it is out of tax by more than 3 months and a few neighbours ring the guards, it's quite likely it will be confiscated

md99

You could always take down the thing that holds the tax and ins. certs..

at least that way people and passing traffic wardens/gardaí won't actually SEE outdated tax discs, and few will bother to follow up I'm sure..

DukeDredd

md99 wrote:

You could always take down the thing that holds the tax and ins. certs..

at least that way people and passing traffic wardens/gardaí won't actually SEE outdated tax discs, and few will bother to follow up I'm sure..

I think the offence is not displaying tax and insurance even if the car has both so they could still slap a ticket on the windscreen.

galwaytt

DukeDredd wrote:

I think the offence is not displaying tax and insurance even if the car has both so they could still slap a ticket on the windscreen.

correct - there are two offences here; not displaying, and not having. At least displaying an out of date one shortens the list !!

cormie

But it's also the law to always have such discs displayed. I've been fined before for not having my insurance disc in because I left the car with my bro who had to get his own insurance. Was just wondering would it be any different if I had a residents permit displayed.

I want to sell the car so don't want to tax it if I wont be using it;)

Gary ITR

Just tax the car and add it on to the sale price, a car with tax is easier to sell

Wishbone Ash

Onkle wrote:

Just tax the car and add it on to the sale price, a car with tax is easier to sell

Maybe it's over 3000cc. €1300 approx PA. :eek:

EDIT: €1343 or €379 for 3/12.

blorg

I seem to remember a thread on here a while back from someone who got done for _exactly_ what you are describing, leaving an untaxed car parked on a public road. So I wouldn't do it.

unkel

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Maybe it's over 3000cc. €1300 approx PA. :eek:

EDIT: €1343 or €379 for 3/12.

Don't remind me. My tax is up next week. That's €5372 spent on taxing one car over the last 3 years :eek:

Wishbone Ash

unkel wrote:

That's €5372 spent on taxing one car over the last 3 years :eek:

4 years?

cormie

Jaysus, that's a lot.

Anyone know what it WILL cost to tax a 6L murcielago?

unkel

I got the car 3 years ago. Taxed it
Taxed it again 2 years ago
Taxed it last year
Taxing it now

That's 4 times €1343 in 3 years!

unkel

cormie wrote:

Anyone know what it WILL cost to tax a 6L murcielago?

All private cars over 3,000cc are €1343

Perhaps one day you WILL be able to afford the tax on a Murcielago

IrishRover

We've had this thread before, and it was a thread that Cormie started before too.

There is only an offence for not displaying a valid tax disc on a car that is in use on a public road. I remember we checked the wording of the actual law on the last thread and the only way it could be an offence to have a car parked on a public road without displaying tax is if you interpret the meaning of "in use" to include "parked with nobody in the car" - which I think we agreed last time wouldn't make sense as in that case, the wording would not include the words "in use" and would simply read "...offence not to display valid tax on a car on a public road..."

Cormie, in the last thread there was a guard who still decided to do you for this, even though the car wasn't in use and he seemed to be avoiding all your attempts to contact him - likely because he realised he was in the wrong on this issue. Did you ever update us on what happened with this? Is this the same issue you are talking about now?

cormie

I'm pretty sure I posted a reply to that thread.

This is a different situation now, that was insurance parked on a public road with no parking permit, this was just asking if a parking permit made it ok really.

The law is very very very unclear regarding "in use" but it boils down to "in use" also being "parked" on a public road. I wasn't willing to go to court at the risk of a higher fine and taking the time off to do so to argue whether or parked included not being in the parked car, just the fact it was parked, i.e, on a public road at all. Would be interesting to see get the true meaning of parked.

unkel

cormie wrote:

The law is very very very unclear regarding "in use" but it boils down to "in use" also being "parked" on a public road

I believe so too

Wishbone Ash

IrishRover wrote:

There is only an offence for not displaying a valid tax disc on a car that is in use on a public road.

Indeed it does IrishRover.....

4.—(1) The licence for a vehicle shall be carried on the vehicle at all times when the vehicle is in use on a public road.

(2) The licence shall be carried on the vehicle as follows :—

(a) on a bicycle (other than a bicycle used for drawing a sidecar), tricycle or invalid carriage—in a conspicuous position on the near side of the vehicle in front of the driving seat ;

(b) on a bicycle used for drawing a sidecar—on the near side of the handlebar of the bicycle or the near side of the combination in front of the driving seat ;

(c) on a pedestrian-controlled vehicle—in a conspicuous position on the near side of the vehicle ;

(d) on any other vehicle—

(i) where the vehicle is fitted with a glass windscreen extending across the front of the vehicle to the near side—facing forwards on the near lower corner of the glass and either on the glass or within two inches of it, or

(ii) on the near side of the vehicle, facing towards the near side of the road and not less than two feet six inches nor more than six feet six inches from ground level and between two imaginary parallel lines, the first drawn vertically through the rear-most part of the driving seat or cab (or where there is no such seat or cab, the foot plate) and the second drawn vertically six inches in front of the base of the front windscreen or, where there is no front windscreen, through a point four feet forward from the first line.

(3) Where the licence is carried on a glass portion of the vehicle, it shall be in a weather-proof container and in any other case, the licence shall be carried in a durable weatherproof container with a transparent cover.

(4) The licence shall be carried in such a manner as to show at all times the date of expiry and the particulars set out in paragraph (b) of article 3 of these Regulation.

(5) Where the licence is carried on or adjacent to the windscreen in accordance with sub-paragraph (i) of paragraph (d) of sub-article (2) of this article, it shall be clearly visible from the front at all times by daylight, and in any other case, the licence shall be placed and carried so as to be clearly visible at all times by daylight to a person standing at the near side of the vehicle.


BUT


....the definition of "in use" is given as including "parking".

IrishRover

I would agree that if you are parking a car then it is in use as you are in the car and driving it when parking. But if a car is parked and there is no one in the car then it is not in use.

Like I say, it only makes sense to me that if "in use" was really intended to include parked vehicles (or to put it another way "vehicles that are unoccupied, stationary, and with engine off") they would simply have written the clause without the words "in use", as the term doesn't expand the meaning of the sentence. The term can only limit the meaning.

If it really was an offence for a car to "exist" on a public road without a valid tax disc then it would simply say "It is an offence for a car to be on a public road without a valid tax disc". I'm convinced this is the only reasonable interpretation and I'd be willing to take my chances in court that a judge would agree with my rationale.

unkel

IrishRover wrote:

I'm convinced this is the only reasonable interpretation

I agree that is a reasonable interpretation

IrishRover wrote:

I'd be willing to take my chances in court that a judge would agree with my rationale.

Fair play to you! Perhaps no one has challenged it in court yet

cormie

Cover the costs and I'll go back and challenge my old fine:D I'd love to after I was charged 50% more cuz the garda wouldn't ring me back (I must have rang the station about 30 times, no joke)

Wishbone Ash

cormie wrote:

I was charged 50% more cuz the garda wouldn't ring me back (I must have rang the station about 30 times, no joke)

Why didn't you go to the Garda Station in person? It's always much more effective regardless of any inconvienence it may cause.

MAYPOP

unkel wrote:

Fair play to you! Perhaps no one has challenged it in court yet

I'd make sure that a decent solicitor was doing the talking, judges hate normal people arguing their case!

IrishRover

I don't see this as an existing statute that no one has yet challenged. I'm at the other end of the telescope on this one. You are being penalised under a law that doesn't exist. To put it in poker terms for you Cormie, that gard told you he was holding 5 Aces and you folded. You never called him (went to court), so you never got to prove him wrong. In fact "prove" is the wrong word. Demonstrate more like.
(BTW, to me it seems pretty obvious that the reason he never called you back is because he realised later that he had made a mistake and knew that if he spoke to you about it he would have to back down on it and lose face. Of course he wouldn't be eager to get in touch with you and eat humble pie ).

As for the judge disliking a civvy making his own case, I doubt you would have to. I would expect any competent judge on hearing that the car was unoccupied, not in motion and not running would dismiss the case. Perhaps if he was feeling vindictive he might ask the gard "please do me the courtesy of explaining to me the use that the car was being put to at the time?"

Can anyone explain what "use" a car is that is stationary, unoccupied and not running is being put to? Who is "using" such a car?

cormie

I'd love to talk for myself in court! "Actually Mr. Garda, I'm not wearing a tie at all!":D

Can you go back and challenge fines? Maybe I will when I have some more disposable income/time and could afford a bigger fine if it doesn't go too well:)

Nephew

I don't really know the specifics but I know someone who parked an untaxed car in his estates parking area (25metres from his house) and it was towed away. A few weeks and many heated phone calls later he got it back without having to pay anything. Mind you he had two other taxed vehicles in his drive which may have helped his case.

Jo King

If one is attempting to sell the car then surely it is "in use" on the public road, even if the use is confined to being a chattel for sale? How is a test drive to be taken? In any case this type of issue is too subtle for the District Court where cases involving summary motoring offences are dealt with. It would depend on the Judge on the day and most will take the side of the garda.

cormie

what if someone isn't attempting to sell though, if it's just "there"?

Wishbone, I didn't go to the garda station in person because the garda was always out on the beat and I don't think he did much station work? And the main reason.. I didn't even think of it:p

MAYPOP

cormie wrote:

I'd love to talk for myself in court! "Actually Mr. Garda, I'm not wearing a tie at all!":D

Can you go back and challenge fines? Maybe I will when I have some more disposable income/time and could afford a bigger fine if it doesn't go too well:)

Seriously, often in court, the charges will be read out, the judge will hand out whatever punishment, and you get out of there without having a chance to speak. And if you try to challenge the judge, you'll be done for contempt. The law (or execution of it) is an ass.

IrishRover

Where is it mentioned that the car was being test driven? If it was being driven then that's using it!

I see the interpretation of the term "in use" to include the sale of an unoccupied parked vehicle as very tenuous.

I'm really flabbergasted that so many people seem to think of this as being a subtle point of law. To me it's no more subtle than the distinction between "guilty" and "not guilty", and as ludicrous as confusing "guilty" and "not guilty" because there's only a three letter word preceeding the main word.

Re not getting a chance to speak, from the times I have watched district court cases, the judge has asked the defendant if the account given by the gard was true and accurate and if they said "no" he didn't ask for any further explanation, just dismissed the case. He took it as read that the defendant was not perjuring himself. He would also immediately dismiss cases where the gard would condtradict himself, fumble over what he was saying or where the gard would not have his notebook with him (and so be perhaps recalling erroneous evidence instead of reading notes taken at the time).
Of course your treatment does depend on the judge and the proximity to lunchtime

cormie

what if I wore a blonde curly wig, would he take me more seriously or less I wonder;)

Jo King

Look at section 73 of the Finance Act 1976.
"73.—(1) Where a vehicle to which this Part applies is used, parked or otherwise kept at any time in a public place, if while the vehicle is being so used, parked or kept there is not fixed to and exhibited on the vehicle in accordance with section 5 (5) of the Act of 1920 a licence which is both issued in respect of the vehicle and is for the time being in force, then the person by whom the vehicle is so used, parked or kept at the time shall be guilty of an offence, and in addition to the person aforesaid, the person (if he is not the person aforesaid) who on the day on which the offence is committed is in relation to the vehicle the relevant person shall also be guilty of an offence."

Leaving your car parked on the public road without a valid tax disc is an offence. Use does not come into it. Not alone are you committing an offence but the guards have powers to seize vehicles where the tax has not been paid.

Esel

Jo King wrote:

Leaving your car parked on the public road without a valid tax disc is an offence. Use does not come into it. Not alone are you committing an offence but the guards have powers to seize vehicles where the tax has not been paid.

But...but IrishRover said this is not so, so therefore we can ignore the law and just put our own more favourable interpretation on it! :rolleyes:

Wishbone Ash

MAYPOP wrote:

often in court, the charges will be read out, the judge will hand out whatever punishment, and you get out of there without having a chance to speak

Any time I've been in the District Courts, the judge has asked the defendent if they have anything to say in relation to the charges.

cormie wrote:

Can you go back and challenge fines?

AFAIK if you have already paid the fine then you have "accepted" it. Otherwise, if you believe it is unjustified, you should refuse to pay it and then get an opportunity to have your say in court.

Jo King

esel wrote:

But...but IrishRover said this is not so, so therefore we can ignore the law and just put our own more favourable interpretation on it! :rolleyes:

I have just quoted the section of the Finance Act which creates the offence. It refers to parked vehicles. IrishRover is talking about use only. The section puts the matter beyond doubt. Who makes the law - IrishRover or the Oireachtais? When you go to court is it the Defendant's law or the law of the Oireachtais which will be applied.

cormie

well the law in the section we have read before is very vague so it's understandable to question it. The section you have quoted clears it up.

I have a tax renewal form here and it says on the back:

Warning: The non display of a current tax disc on a motor vehicle in a public place at any time is an offence

So that's that. Although a number of gardai in the station I was trying to contact your man who gave me the ticket in said I should have a case with that, so even those in authority don't know:rolleyes:

gurramok

cormie wrote:

well the law in the section we have read before is very vague so it's understandable to question it. The section you have quoted clears it up.

Very true.
Mrs Gurramok car is now in a driveway with no tax disc.
We couldn't leave it parked on a residential street as we checked with the Gardai who said it was an offence to park it on the street with no tax(no tax paid plus no visual of disc) as its a public area hence driveway solution is ok as a driveway is private property!

Jo King

So that's that. Although a number of gardai in the station I was trying to contact your man who gave me the ticket in said I should have a case with that, so even those in authority don't know:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]


Has it occurred to you that those gardai might have wanted to have some fun at your expense watching you make an idiot of yourself in the District Court arguing about your ticket?

steveland?

Sorry to hijack... I just bought a car this morning, rang up Axa, got my insurance sorted. Have no tax because there was none when I bought it so there's nothing in the pouch thing. I put a note in the pouch with my insurance policy number which hopefully should do me over until I get my cert but I'm a bit worried about leaving it out without the tax etc...

Am I right in assuming I can't tax it until the log book is in Shannon and my insurance cert comes? It's parked accross the road from my house and I won't be driving it until it's taxed and I have my insurance cert so should this count as not being "in use"?

Also anyone know what tax should cost me on a 954cc Peugeot 106?

cormie

take your insurance details out of the windscreen steve! Your given a 10 day grace period on insurance to allow you to drive around without cert etc because you will be insured anyway. Can you not park it anywhere private? Drive way etc?

steveland?

cormie wrote:

take your insurance details out of the windscreen steve! Your given a 10 day grace period on insurance to allow you to drive around without cert etc because you will be insured anyway. Can you not park it anywhere private? Drive way etc?

Hmm, thought the policy number is on the insurance cert anyway so it wouldn't matter having it in the pouch.

No no driveway I'm afraid... just out on the road. It's not that popular a destination really as it's off any main roads so there'd be no traffic wardens or anything. May be some clampers around match days though (Drumcondra end of Glasnevin) so there may be some wardens around over the weekend.

You reckon I should take the policy number out of the window yeh?

cormie

I don't know to be honest, I forgot it's on the certs anyway:p you could always park it in DCU till you get sorted?

Mike07

Exact same situation as you and in Drumcondra too-- I am just going to leave the header from the dealer in the pouch and keep fingers crossed!!-- How long for new cert these days?

steveland?

cormie wrote:

I don't know to be honest, I forgot it's on the certs anyway:p you could always park it in DCU till you get sorted?

Heh, I can't legally drive to DCU until I get the cert

I've taken it out, just in case.

I rang up Mountjoy Garda station to find out about the legalities of driving it around. They said that I'd have ten days to produce my insurance cert which should be enough for me as it'll more than likely arrive before then. The only thing that's getting me is the tax. The Guard said that if I was stopped they'd more than likely take a practical approach and I could just give them the insurance details so they know I'm waiting for the cert to tax it but also said that traffic wardens probably wouldn't be as practical and would stick to the letter of the law for this and give me a ticket...

I really can't afford any tickets so it'll just sit there until I get all my certs in order and I'll be checking on it every 10 seconds to make sure it's still there and there's no little pieces of paper on the windscreen :P

cormie

well your breaking the law at the moment by not having it taxed so you may as well just drive it to a private parking space;) two wrongs make a right here:D

Wishbone Ash

steveland? wrote:

Also anyone know what tax should cost me on a 954cc Peugeot 106?

€151 PA

steveland? wrote:

The Guard said that if I was stopped they'd more than likely take a practical approach

Gardaí deal with this all the time and most will allow a month or more before asking further questions. It's not really the new owners fault when there are delays at Shannon and you'll have to pay the arrears (from purchase date) anyway so it's not as if you were avoiding it.