What is your range for completing the SB in 6max cash?

breadmonkey

I'm talking low stakes here.

I'm just not sure what exactly to be throwing away.

At the moment (with any number of limpers) I would probably complete with:

any suited connectors
any suited one gappers
any suited ace
KQo/s, KJo/s, KTs, KJs, JQs, JTs, J9s, QTs
22-99
ATo, AJo, AQo

How's that?

Raising range is very tight and obviously dependant on number of limpers but I would say something like:
AKs/o, TT+

sikes

thats a pretty wide general range.

The only hands I will definately complete the SB with in multiway limped post are small pocket pairs. Everything else is very much dependant on the players in the pot etc.

In your standard .5/1 1/2 game completing with suited one gapers, suited connectors, Ax etc is prob going to cost you.

breadmonkey

Ah ok, didn't realise the extent of queaky tightedness required?

Also, for the purposed of this thread you can assume that nearly all players at the table are donkeys.

sikes

Just a couple of points.

Hands that play well in multiway pots but are not pocket pairs go down vastly in value in multiway limped pots when you are OOP.

With a paired hand you are either a huge favourite with a made hand after the flop or are check/folding.

With suited connectors etc, you will rarely flop a made hand, and in a multiway pot its mostly -EV to bet out on a draw from the SB. Also the pot is not very big, so its difficult to commit players to a hand on the flop, as it has been limped, so even if you have ~50% equity on the flop, like a OESFD, its can often be a losing play to bet out again on the turn, and you will often be forced to check fold. If its checked around on the flop, your equity in the pot decreases dramatically on a missed turn and to any bet you will likely have to fold. You also cant control free cards and other factors that you are in control of when you are in position.

As an aside:
In a hand someone posted recently, they raised a small amount in a multiway limped pot from the button with 99, i think. If we are clear on why we are doing this, well then its a good play. We want to build pots when we are in position, becuase we win more when we flop big and its easier to stack someone. Instead of the pot being $6 on the flop it was $24. When pots are biggger, mistakes are more severe. This type of play is also proftiable with hands like suited connectors etc in position.

However, from the the SB with pocket pairs it can also be profitable to build a pot, or a "pot sweetner", you want to raise enough to entice everyone to stay in the pot, and this is very profitable at passive tables and probably not particularly profitable at the higher stakes.

Any thoughts on this? Any glaring mistakes?

NickyOD

x-x

breadmonkey

Thanks for that sikes.

NickyOD wrote:

x-x

What's that supposed to be?

Lafortezza

lol, I think Nicky means any two cards will do. I'd be inclined to agree with him.

TacT

me too since I recently started engaging myself in the 6-max games. If everyone checks a large % of the time any kind of pot or near pot bet will take it down and any time you are called it depends.

breadmonkey

Right, so I have sikes telling me to only complete with low pps for defo and NickyOD and Lafortezza saying any two. Someone's goping to have to go into more detail.

Bandara

I'm throwing my weight behind the any two brigade.

(Not that I'm saying I'm fat or anything)

bohsman

breadmonkey wrote:

Right, so I have sikes telling me to only complete with low pps for defo and NickyOD and Lafortezza saying any two. Someone's goping to have to go into more detail.

Have a look at your PT stats from the sb, I got a bit of a fright when I did and reduced my vpip from sb from 65 to 30. No offense to the lads but ones a failed pro the others an omaha player.

El Stuntman

bohsman wrote:

Have a look at your PT stats from the sb, I got a bit of a fright when I did and reduced my vpip from sb from 65 to 30. No offense to the lads but ones a failed pro the others an omaha player.

someone put that cat out

ianmc38

Completing with any 2 cards is really stupid and is guaranteed to lose you money. The SB is a position where most players lose a large amount of money.

There is no specific range to complete with as most decisions will be based on table conditions, such as the number of limpers, their stack sizes and a few other variables.

Also, the worse the players in the hand are, the more profitable it is to complete with a wider range.

bohsman

El Stuntman wrote:

someone put that cat out

Once you say no offense you can follow it up with anything.

El Stuntman

bohsman wrote:

Once you say no offense you can follow it up with anything.

doesn't work with my wife

"no offense love but that dress makes you look a bit tubby"

"hello, operator? Ambulance please."

Lafortezza

bohsman wrote:

Have a look at your PT stats from the sb, I got a bit of a fright when I did and reduced my vpip from sb from 65 to 30. No offense to the lads but ones a failed pro the others an omaha player.

lol, took me a second

phantom_lord

ianmc38 wrote:

Completing with any 2 cards is really stupid and is guaranteed to lose you money. The SB is a position where most players lose a large amount of money.

There is no specific range to complete with as most decisions will be based on table conditions, such as the number of limpers, their stack sizes and a few other variables.

Also, the worse the players in the hand are, the more profitable it is to complete with a wider range.

yup i agree with all of that. any 2 is gonna be a huge leak.

Jimmy Hoffa

Bohsman how dare u say nicky o d id a failed pro.Do u not remember the fanfare he was on the radio and everything how he quit his job to be a pro.I wonder is there any chance of him going back on and saying i failed miserably but am currently ripping up .5 1 on tribeca.He is aprime example of a poker player who knows it all but really knows **** all.

sikes

Something else that I have begun to believe is that your implied odds actually reduce when you are in a multi way limped pot as more players enter. People dont play for stacks in this situation, the pot is not big, you make more mistakes becuase you are OOP and your hand is in no way disguised. Limping suited connectors etc can be ok, but with other hands, you are very likely to make a second best made hand, which is going to be costly.

I would much prefer to play 87s from the SB with 2 other players in a raised pot, than play 87s in a multiway limped pot. In my experience it is far more profitable.

jimbling

i've altered the way I play from the sb greatly of late. Was in the region of almost 55/60%.... haven't checked what it is now, but it's definitely down a good bit.

Sikes is giving good advice here... all of which I've learned the hard way. I'm a avid lover of small suited connectors, but I no longer play them oop... they lose a huge amount of value.

Totally disagree with any two.

TacT

well, we are told to assume that the rest of the table are complete donkeys, so, completing with almost any two and hitting any kind of flop will be profitable because we will get paid off enough to make up for the supposed leak in our game when we do.

bohsman

Its hard to get paid off oop, wait for the button and raise with any two.

phantom_lord

TacT wrote:

well, we are told to assume that the rest of the table are complete donkeys, so, completing with almost any two and hitting any kind of flop will be profitable because we will get paid off enough to make up for the supposed leak in our game when we do.

no it wont, it'll be a huge leak.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

PiperT

ianmc38 wrote:

Completing with any 2 cards is really stupid and is guaranteed to lose you money. The SB is a position where most players lose a large amount of money.

Agreed. This was the biggest leak in my game until I analysed it with PT. I couldn't believe how much it was costing me and how many bad situations it got me into. You're not just losing the completed blind but in a lot of cases you're getting involved in situations out of position where you have no business being involved. Since I tightened up in the SB my results have improved significantly.

sikes

TacT wrote:

well, we are told to assume that the rest of the table are complete donkeys, so, completing with almost any two and hitting any kind of flop will be profitable because we will get paid off enough to make up for the supposed leak in our game when we do.

When we are first to act, we make more mistakes becuase we cant control pot size, cant get free cards, have no information on how the flop has helped anyone else etc. This is one reason why a wide range is bad. Another is the fact that people very rarely stack off in unraised pots.

The problem is we are too deep. We dont want to play poker from the SB on multiple streets becuase we will lose money with crappy hands and will often get out played. This is the fact of poker, even if the players are bad.

Sit down and work out a couple of scenarios. Im deadly cereal here! Pick a hand like 96. Now think what the stack sizes are going to be like on the flop. What flops are we hoping for? What are the likely ranges of the limpers? How often will we flop our dream 578r/nr? Who is going to pay us off in this situation? How much can we bet? What type of implied odds do we leave behind us? It just doesn't add up for a winning play for me.

cooker3

El Stuntman wrote:

doesn't work with my wife

"no offense love but that dress makes you look a bit tubby"

"hello, operator? Ambulance please."

Haha, I literally loled when I read that