So i was thinking ...

Gholimoli

Robin Lacey recently made a great post about pre-flop reraising and 3betting and how that affects the dynamics of the post flop play.
The subject of the post was basically how and when to reraise lite pre-flop and how to defend against it.
The general consensus were that in higher limits you will need to open up your reraising range and be willing to do this a lot more with lesser hands.

Then Rabin pointed out that most higher limit players are in effect doing this and this is not a secret any more and that you will see reraising , 3betting going on often and he made a few observations on where the games would go from here now that most people have opened up their game and are now playing bigger pots with lesser hands.

I thought the subject was very interesting but at the same time I thought it was something that could only be executed at the higher limits because with plays like this folding equity is a huge part of your profits and profitable plays would turn in to loosing plays if you didn’t have the added FE.
Now every one knows that if lower limits you don’t have a lot of FE and as a result a TAG playing style has proven to me the most profitable.

So my point is that if a TAG style in profitable in lower limits due to the lack of FE shouldn’t this now be also a profitable style in higher limits now that people have opened up their game which effectively means they don’t fold as often?
It’s a bit of a catch 22 I think because it was suggested that the reason why you should open up your game in the higher limits is because you will not get paid at all if you are a nit and playing a TAG style but then if everybody understands this and open up their game then we will have a very loose game with a lot of raises and reraises with medium strength hands resulting in a game with a lot less FE .
wht do people think?

PiperT

Hi Gholi

Agree with you entirely on this. I recently played up a few levels and found that my raises were almost always being re-raised. 3-Betting is almost a standard play and a lot of the time it induces a fold from the original raiser which I found interesting. For me, I played TAG and ran extremely well with my big hands getting paid off almost all of the time. Only problem is that there are fewer players at the higher levels and they realise pretty quickly what you are about and adjust.

PiperT

ocallagh

NL Holdem has become a much more aggressive game over the last few years, however this style of aggression in the higher limits should not be compared with what goes on in the lower limits. In the lower limits each hand is played in isolation and this allows a simple ABC TAG game to become quite profitable because their good hands will often be paid off. However at the higher limits the aggression is calculated and each positional raise/3 bet is used to mask the good hands. LAGs at those levels have much more discipline and will drop to an ABC TAGs raise and will rarely pay them off. Also, ABC TAG players will trap themselves and get stacked a lot. They won't have the discipline to fold the 2nd best hand because it is a LAG after all that they are playing against! This makes playing an ABC TAG game very difficult against them. This is not to say a TAG game would not work, but you need to be a very good player to pull it off. What annoys me is how people think a TAG game is an ABC game. Granted this is true for 90% of TAGs at the lower limits however I believe a TAG game at the higher limits is one of the most difficult styles to play. A TAG at 1/2 won't have a chance at 5/10. A high limit TAG player has to mix up their game, must extract as much value as they can with their marginal holdings and must have exceptional hand reading skills. Barry Greenstein comes to mind as one player who does this perfectly.

What I am saying basically mimics what PiperT said, but I also wanted to draw the distinction between an ABC TAG player at lower limits and a winning TAG player at the higher limits.

HalfBaked

The title of this thread scared me.







*interesting post though*

robinlacey

hey gholimoli,have you seen this thread?
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=9196658&an=0&page=1#Post9196658

sikes

when will LAP become profitable?

robinlacey

also this one has some stuff about the return of the TAG game with people like sbrugby
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=9172256&an=0&page=0#Post9172256

robinlacey

lol,i suppose it kind of makes sense that AeJones would be a spurs fan!

robinlacey

also this isn't really adding much to what ocallagh has already said,but i think TAG at 5/10+ is totally different to what i used to think TAG was at 1/2 and 2/4

a lot of the biggest winners at 10/20 play a tag style,and may have the same stats as their 2/4 counterparts,but they are playing a completely different game.

i often find myself against a 20/15/2.7 player and wonder how someone with those stats can be so agressive,but somehow they manage it!

Gholimoli

ocallagh wrote:

NL Holdem has become a much more aggressive game over the last few years, however this style of aggression in the higher limits should not be compared with what goes on in the lower limits. In the lower limits each hand is played in isolation and this allows a simple ABC TAG game to become quite profitable because their good hands will often be paid off. However at the higher limits the aggression is calculated and each positional raise/3 bet is used to mask the good hands. LAGs at those levels have much more discipline and will drop to an ABC TAGs raise and will rarely pay them off. Also, ABC TAG players will trap themselves and get stacked a lot. They won't have the discipline to fold the 2nd best hand because it is a LAG after all that they are playing against! This makes playing an ABC TAG game very difficult against them. This is not to say a TAG game would not work, but you need to be a very good player to pull it off. What annoys me is how people think a TAG game is an ABC game. Granted this is true for 90% of TAGs at the lower limits however I believe a TAG game at the higher limits is one of the most difficult styles to play. A TAG at 1/2 won't have a chance at 5/10. A high limit TAG player has to mix up their game, must extract as much value as they can with their marginal holdings and must have exceptional hand reading skills. Barry Greenstein comes to mind as one player who does this perfectly.

What I am saying basically mimics what PiperT said, but I also wanted to draw the distinction between an ABC TAG player at lower limits and a winning TAG player at the higher limits.

I get what you saying but obviously I didn’t mean playing ABC poker at higher limits and expecting to make money.
When I said a TAG game I meant a developed TAG game.
A dynamic TAG game.
What I mean is a TAG game that takes perfect advantage of table image and exploits the hell out of profitable situations.
By dynamic I mean a game that is aware of its tight image on the table and what it allows him to do and then does it and maintains good balance between playing tight and taking advantage of his tight image.
Obviously all these things are not necessary and even not executable on lower limits cuz for example people don’t really care about image etc.
However the fact remains that if people are playing a looser game and are willing to play bigger pots with lesser hands then this can be exploited by playing tighter.
Again I don’t play high stakes do I wouldn’t really know the dynamics of those games and I am just talking in theory here.

ocallagh

Gholimoli wrote:

I get what you saying but obviously I didn’t mean playing ABC poker at higher limits and expecting to make money.
When I said a TAG game I meant a developed TAG game.
A dynamic TAG game.
What I mean is a TAG game that takes perfect advantage of table image and exploits the hell out of profitable situations.
By dynamic I mean a game that is aware of its tight image on the table and what it allows him to do and then does it and maintains good balance between playing tight and taking advantage of his tight image.
Obviously all these things are not necessary and even not executable on lower limits cuz for example people don’t really care about image etc.
However the fact remains that if people are playing a looser game and are willing to play bigger pots with lesser hands then this can be exploited by playing tighter.
Again I don’t play high stakes do I wouldn’t really know the dynamics of those games and I am just talking in theory here.

yeah - i knew u knew what you were saying, just thought i'd make it clear as I think TAG is easy to confuse with ABC for a lot of people.

Robin - I read all those threads above on 2+2. The long thread about how poker has changed etc was very interesting. I am convinced that Gholi's approach above is the way to go. When in a loose game play tight and vice versa and I think it's that simple.

Just a note on that thread on 2+2:

The general consensus on 2+2 is to play like a loose maniac, pick up as much dead money as possible and when they have to play a flop with a "fish" who cannot drop preflop they will simply outplay them.. If that's what most 2+2'rs are aspiring to then a lot of them will fail. I just can't see how every single one of them has the discipline or post flop skills to play this way. IMO they are turning deep stacked post flop poker into preflop poker with higher variance, feeding their inner gambler! Their ABC LAG game might have worked a few months ago but it is an easy game to adapt to and for most competent players all it takes is a change in preflop play and slightly higher variance. The fact that most of these LAGs are posting losses over the last few months might be a sign that most competent players have adapted!

pok3rplaya

OK so whats the difference between a "TAG" and the way most decent players are playing at the moment?

MrPillowTalk

For a while there the most effective way to play was to 2bet less and 3 bet more, now that absolutely every game has a lot of 3 betting you need to 3 bet less and 4 bet more.

I think if the games at 5/10 and higher keep going the way they have last while eventually it will be all in blind and whoever runs best wins lol.

A 4 bet still (at the moment) has the air of authority of a real hand. Against the really aggro guys I think 4 betting your old 3 betting range in position is the way to go, and if you face a 3bet from the button or cuttoff who is lag you should consider 4 betting any two (note consider).

For a long time over a year maybe I have had great fun with the following situation, if there are 2 lags in the game and one opens for a raise from mp and someone calls then the other lag 3 bets either on button, cutoff or out of sb, if you are in the blinds you should 4 bet ANY two in this spot. Even a lag cant call with anything but AA KK maybe QQ after all the action behind and chances are the second raiser was squeezing anyway the money picked up more than makes up for the times you run into the nuts.

Flame away.

Gholimoli

The difference between a low limit TAG ABC player and a decent TAG is a lot.
A TAG ABC player has no gears and can only play one game.
He makes to attempts to read situations and adjust his game according to the dynamics of the table.
He will more than anything else play his cards and pays little or no attention to anything else.
Put short he has a very dry, static game.
However even though his game is easily exploitable the players he plays with don’t have the understanding nor the ability to adjust their game in away to exploit this type of players.
What’s more is that the players he plays with also have a static game which they refuse to change and adjust. So basically we have a situation where the dynamics of the table as a whole is static and does not change but with in that most players are constantly playing loose.
As a result our tight ABC player can make a lot of money by just playing tight and hard because he gets paid playing this way.

In higher limits you simply cant play like this because players are able to make adjustments to their game.
So what happens is that you join the table, you play very tight, they will pay you off one or twice and notice that you are a nit and then they will stop paying you.
Here is where the difference kicks in IMO.

A good, aware TAG will at this stage notice how the table dynamics have changed towards him and will start to make use of his image, making reraises , squeezes ,3bets and generally take full advantage of his image making more profit.

At some stage others will may notice what you are doing and adjust their game and once again start playing looser against you which is where you revert back to your tight game.
This is what I mean by maintaining a good balance between playing a good TAG game and making use of your tight image.

I think if the games are as loose they appear to be with a lot of people trying to reraise,3bet pre-flop ,then you will be playing ideally with the above style and you will have a good counter-strategy against all the 3bets going on.
I think this would be a more profitable way than actually opening up your game even more so and introducing 4 betting in to your game.

Indeed if 3betting is getting so popular then your AA,KK hands even will have no problems of getting a lot of money in pre-flop by 3 betting or even 4betting.
I mean if people have opened up their game so much that they are willing to play for stack with Ajs in 3betted pot(there was a thread on 2+2) then that’s really great for tight players with big hands.

bohsman

5 Betting is the new 3 Betting.

Gholimoli

MrPillowTalk wrote:

For a while there the most effective way to play was to 2bet less and 3 bet more, now that absolutely every game has a lot of 3 betting you need to 3 bet less and 4 bet more.

I think if the games at 5/10 and higher keep going the way they have last while eventually it will be all in blind and whoever runs best wins lol.

A 4 bet still (at the moment) has the air of authority of a real hand. Against the really aggro guys I think 4 betting your old 3 betting range in position is the way to go, and if you face a 3bet from the button or cuttoff who is lag you should consider 4 betting any two (note consider).

For a long time over a year maybe I have had great fun with the following situation, if there are 2 lags in the game and one opens for a raise from mp and someone calls then the other lag 3 bets either on button, cutoff or out of sb, if you are in the blinds you should 4 bet ANY two in this spot. Even a lag cant call with anything but AA KK maybe QQ after all the action behind and chances are the second raiser was squeezing anyway the money picked up more than makes up for the times you run into the nuts.

Flame away.

Pilliow,
what you have said above actually proves my point but i think your counter strategy is not right.
you say if the games going the way they are that all stack will eventually end up in the middle with utter trash and who ever runs well wins.

you also say that now you should 3 bet less,and 4 bet more.

my point is that if the games are indeed headed that way why not just tighten up.
i mean by tighning up you will have your observant opponents adjusting to your game (if they don’t they happy days) and when they do then you take advantage of your image.
What do you think of that?

Gholimoli

bohsman wrote:

5 Betting is the new 3 Betting.

i bet you its not.

pok3rplaya

Gholimoli wrote:

i 6 bet you its not.

FYP

ocallagh

bohsman wrote:

5 Betting is the new 3 Betting.

The next phenomenon will be folding AA to a 4 bet to keep us all guessing... it has about the same EV as getting it in 5 betting with AJ!!

Bandana boy

ocallagh wrote:

The next phenomenon will be folding AA to a 4 bet to keep us all guessing... it has about the same EV as getting it in 5 betting with AJ!!

always betting on black in Roulette is about the same ev as 5 betting AJ

Regardless of Wesley Snipes feelings on the matter

pok3rplaya

ghol let me just check if I have this right?

what you are saying is that the style that used to work best for good players was LAG with no other gears. Because of the way the games have changed, the best style is to play tight and then switch to LAG when people start thinking you are a nit.

MrPillowTalk

Gholimoli wrote:

Pilliow,
what you have said above actually proves my point but i think your counter strategy is not right.
you say if the games going the way they are that all stack will eventually end up in the middle with utter trash and who ever runs well wins.

you also say that now you should 3 bet less,and 4 bet more.

my point is that if the games are indeed headed that way why not just tighten up.
i mean by tighning up you will have your observant opponents adjusting to your game (if they don’t they happy days) and when they do then you take advantage of your image.
What do you think of that?

Your not really getting what Im saying, obv the everyone getting it in blind was a joke.

When I first started playing the mid stakes and higher if someone 3 bet they had AK+, and if you cottoned on to this and started 3 betting a wider range most of the players couldnt really live with it, they either ended up calling and folding a flop or calling and check raising all in on the flop and in short they were easy to play against and very fun as well. But now everyone 3 bets what they used to just open so know if you want to play the same way you really have to 4 bet more. At the moment a 4 bet still means a big hand from the majority of players, this will probably change with time.

When you say play a tag style what exactly do you mean, for example a guy who 3 bets a lot is after 3 betting you, do you advocate calling with TT 99 here, folding, raising? what do you do on the flop? Playing TAG is actually very hard when your against good LAGs you are allways making tough decisions. Then when you tighten up pre flop all of a sudden the game adjusts to you and everyone starts taking flops against you in position and then it starts all over again except on the flop or turn. Im not doing a very good job of explaining it, but basically if you plan on playing TAG you better not stack off easily with AA or KK and you better be able to make some tough calls and folds depending on the situation.

MrPillowTalk

Gholimoli wrote:

Indeed if 3betting is getting so popular then your AA,KK hands even will have no problems of getting a lot of money in pre-flop by 3 betting or even 4betting.
I mean if people have opened up their game so much that they are willing to play for stack with Ajs in 3betted pot(there was a thread on 2+2) then that’s really great for tight players with big hands.

Just because you 3 bet doesnt mean you have to call another raise and if people only raise your 3 bets with AA KK then happy days thats the way it used to be.

I dont mean this in a bad way Gholi but the biggest weakness in your game is not adjusting to different opponents, there are times when due to the way a game has played or the way a hand has panned out or some history between myself and the opponent that I will get it all in with AJ, however if its against a nit who I know only plays big hands then he NEVER gets that action.

For example Ive played 3 15k+ pots with 88 AK and AQ versus omghaha on tribeca and been in good shape everytime however I have never played a big preflop pot versus Alias as I know the time to play him is on the flop or turn.

pok3rplaya

I think you make it sound like 1kNL is full of LAGs who are spewing all over the place and all you gotta do is fold everything except AA/KK and ship the pots quick

robinlacey

i think the dynamics of these games where 3betting is prevalant may have been misrepresented by me somewhat,or at least i didn't explain myself very well...

its not that the games are now full of lagtards getting it all in all the time,the players who are doing a lot of the 3betting are the TAGs,in general,there are some laggier players but at 5/10 and up (not on tribeca,but on pretty much all the other sites) all the 3betting and 4betting is very much part of the tag games-the stats people have are still in the 19/13 to 27/23 (roughly) range,so its not really the case that you can just play tight,in the traditional sense,and clean up.

the standard of play at 5/10 and up is so so much better than at lower stakes,a lot of the regulars are exploitable,but not in the way you might think when you read about all the reraising that goes on-even the most exploitable players,other than the real fish,still dont make standard mistakes,you really have to force them to make mistakes,and to do so you need to have a standard TAG 3betting game as the basic foundation of your game,since pretty much everyone else does,and you need to develop from that in order to force mistakes,which means changing your game up a lot in terms of speeding up and slowing down,not simply playing tight in order to catch all the loose money floating around.

also,ocallagh make a good point about the perception of lags on twoplustwo...the thing is that for all but a few of the very best twoplustwo players (CTS,durrr,boostedJ and the like) LAG play is nothing but a beautiful myth-everyone loves the idea of being a fearless lag who can play any two cards,but hardly anyone is anywhere near good enough to play like this,and a lot of people will lose a lot of money trying. also,often a hand is posted where some big name player makes some crazily lag play,and people conclude that this is how the game should be played...

in reality,the reason the hand was posted is because it is the exception,the player making the crazy/inspired play has probably been playing a solid TAG game all day,and then one big play comes up as a result of a lot of metagame stuff that has been going on,and everyone loves to think that thats how all the games should be played.i'm sure the players who makes these occasional plays love to keep up the idea that this is what its like all the time,since it makes it scary to play against them,probably gets them a lot of action,and also encourages players to try and emulate their game without a solid understanding of both the fundamentals of TAG play and the changing table dynamics that lead to the opportunities for these big plays.

its also sort of a dick thing-most of the twoplustwoers who love to show off their lagginess are looking for approval,and the reality is that when you end up playing them,most of the regular twoplustwo players are actually fairly nitty.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

pok3rplaya

I'm not sure if I need to or not but just to clarify my last post was about gholimoli's comments. Good post either way robin, I realy wish you would post more.

The main problem that I have with this thread is that I think it focuses too much on some imaginary line that exists between the definitions of TAG and LAG. I mean who says what is a TAG and what is a LAG? If I play a solid tight and aggressive game for an hour and then I see a good opertunity to 4bet a raise and reraise with trash then do I become a 1 hand LAG or am I still a TAG who just took advantage of an oppertunity?

I feel alot of Gholimoli's thoughts here revolve around the idea that poker table dynamics go in easily defined cycles. A sort of "if the table is tight then we should play loose and if the table is loose we should play tight" thing. Thats all well and good at low stakes where not many players are paying attention to table image or it's manipulation but once these things become factors in the equation, that type or rigid thinking isn't valid anymore. I do belive that profitable poker styles will come and go in a cyclical fashion but it will be a far more complicated and mixed frequency pattern.

For example, say you are playing a standard semi-loose raising game at a pretty calm table. Thants all well and good. But what happens when the good player on your left starts 3 betting you regularly? I don't believe tightening up is a fully valid option here. Sure if we tighten up then his 3 betting becomes less profitable and for a while he will be making small mistakes by 3 betting our tighter range but we will alse be forcing ourselves into a mistake in that we are now not cabable of isolating the bad player on our right frequently enough to be optimal. All we are really doing is trading mistakes and affecting their flow throughout the game.

The players who crush poker games do so because they play a game which forces their opponents to make large mistakes. They don't just trade small errors for small errors. They trade small deceptive errors for HUGE whopper mistakes.


I gotta go for lunch with a friend I'll try and finish this later. I'm not sure if I even getting to a point.

Anyways, so to be big winners force the biggest mistakes. This is why a post that robin made in the other thread was so good for me. I realised that in the current state of affairs, my 3 betting strategy was allowing my opponents more optimally then me by taking away their chance to 3 bet when I have the best hand. But this is just one example of ways that different players strategys can be exploited.

Our aim as poker players should be to find these exploitable situations and take advantage of them. There are always exploitable situations, it's just about staying one step ahead of the competition. Take the varying styles as you move up through the lower limits for examples. At the bottom you have loose calling stations, tight passive players realised that they could win by betting when the calling stations call and folding when they raise. Then tight aggressive players realised that they could be more profitable by betting when the calling stations call, folding when they raise AND pushing the tight passive players off all their hands. And so on... At higher limits the size of the gap between any two caliber of player is much smaller, thats why an average 5/10 player might make 3ptBB/100 but an average 25NL player might make 8ptBB/100. The same concept applies though. The key isn't picking the right "style" and playing it, it's about identifing specific individual exploitable situations and taking advantage of them, whatever that may involve.

Fcuk basically all I said was play good and you win at poker, nevermind.

Lazare

Excellent post Robin.
Great eye opening thread, well done all.

ianmc38

If you play like a nit, then start opening up to take advantage of profitable situations (squeezes or whatever) good opponenets will notice this and start adjusting. I think the good LAG and TAG players will remain winners regardless as they play better preflop and postflop.

3 betting, 4betting and squeezing preflop are one of the main places to make a profit even at the lower levels.

cooker3

Great post Robin, outstanding stuff!

jovirna

Good post Robin.

I've only properly settled into online play recently and playing a TAG game at 1/2 is proving to be the best way to go about it.

About a month ago I started a new tribecca account and played quite a loose aggressive game. I had done well playing live for about 18 months, but had never gotten around to playing much online. But since I started playing online the thoughts of going to a casino for a 1/2 game don't appeal at all.

Initially a LAG style (combined with running well) proved very profitable. Then at 1/2 I found that my three bets/continuation bets/bluffs were getting looked up a bit more. This cost me a little, but mainly it made me rethink my style of play. I got annoyed with myself for losing a sloppy buyin here and there.

Essentially I decided that when four tabling 1/2 on Tribecca, I should avoid playing hands that require me to think for more than 10 seconds. I now continution bet in moderation and have made a pledge not to bluff (or let semibluffs turn into bluffs) more than one street against a player who I don't have information on, unless I'm certain they'll fold. I figure that when four tabling I'm playing enough pots anyway, so avoiding those few stupid ones that might add up to a buyin per session is hugely beneficial.

The advantage to this is that I'm rarely getting into stupid hands and am rarely calling a river bet and mucking, which means that I generate a level of respect and this allows me great scope to three bet, especially raising a late position raise when I'm in the blinds.

Even when I'm three betting with a marginal hand (JTs eg) most players at 1/2 don't have the sense to call with a monster and will push preflop which gives away the strength of their hand. This means I'm able to drop a hand quite readily and when the majority of players flat call a re-raise and you bet a not so dangerous looking flop they're gone almost instantly.

AmarilloFats

Some great posts here...


I think the reason there has been so much of this......

Randomposter wrote:

-...ghol let me just check if I have this right?....
-Your not really getting what Im saying...
-Im not doing a very good job of explaining it...
-.....misrepresented by me somewhat, or at least I didn't explain myself very well...

Is that what we're trying to grasp is an intangible quality.
Should A TAG style be used at a table of lags?
Will a LAG style be optimum against TAGs?
Do I need to 3,4,5 bet more against LAGS?
Are the new fish the 1bb/100 Tags?

Answers: It Depends. There are far too many variables to give a Yes/No answer.
There is no simple axiom that you can employ...But the things that were always wrong still are - calling Too much OOP, open limping too much etc.



The terms Lag and Tag are very very broad. So to have a discussion where all parties
have different ideas of what these terms mean is difficult. A couple of % signs don't go
close enough....and as Robin said

Robin Lacey wrote:

i often find myself against a 20/15/2.7 player and wonder how someone with
those stats can be so agressive,but somehow they manage it!

A question. A longwinded question.

If the desire is to make the best decision at every point of a hand/session, with an eye on the bigger picture/metagame, would this desire lead you to play more LAG/TAG against the NEW "laggish" mid/highstakes players?????

pok3rplaya

Oh also, over time all this philosophical poker crap is just tending towards a strategy predicted by game theory.