Russia: U.S. base hosts may be targets

marco murphy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070219/ap_on_re_eu/europe_us_missile_defense

By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV, Associated Press Writer Mon Feb 19, 11:26 AM ET

MOSCOW - Poland and the Czech Republic risk being targeted by Russian missiles if they agree to host a proposed U.S. missile defense system, a top Russian general warned Monday. Russia has been increasingly bellicose in its response to the U.S. proposal to build the missile defense system in Eastern Europe. President
Vladimir Putin has said he does not trust U.S. claims that the system would be to guard the American East Coast and Europe from missiles launched from "rogue nations" in the Middle East.


Gen. Nikolai Solovtsov, head of Russia's missile forces, said the system would upset strategic stability. It would be the first such site in Europe.

"If the governments of Poland and the Czech Republic take such a step ... the Strategic Missile Forces will be capable of targeting these facilities if a relevant decision is made," he said.

On Monday, Czech Premier Mirek Topolanek said his country and Poland were in favor of the U.S. missile defense proposal.

"I think it is in our joint interest to negotiate this initiative and to build in our area the missile defense," Topolanek said after talks in Warsaw with Polish Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski.

The bases in Poland and the Czech Republic would be designed to intercept missiles being developed by
Iran, U.S. Air Force Lt. Gen. Henry A. Obering, director of the Missile Defense Agency, said last month. Two other bases in Alaska and California would protect the U.S. from threats from
North Korea, Obering said.

Kaczynski brushed aside Russia's fears, saying "the missile defense is not directed against any normal state."

"Any statement suggesting that the missile defense would change the alignment of forces in Europe is a misunderstanding," he said. "This truth is being conveyed to our partners in the west and the east."

State Department spokesman Edgar Vasquez said Monday the United States has worked closely with the Czech and Polish governments to develop the missile defense system and that it was in no way directed at Russia.

"We have offered to cooperate with Russia on missile defense because we believe we face a common threat emanating from the Middle East as well as other areas," Vasquez said.

Solovtsov said he was concerned that the United States, which plans to deploy 10 interceptors in Poland, could boost those numbers in the future.

The general also said it would take Russia less than six years to build upgraded versions of medium range missiles if Moscow decided to pull out of a 1987 agreement with the U.S. that banned their deployment.

"It is not difficult to restore their production," Solovtsov told a news conference. "The missiles were dismantled, but the production technology has remained."

Russian military officials have said Moscow's decision to pull out of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty would depend on whether the United States goes ahead with the missile defense plan. The key arms control agreement was negotiated between Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev and former President
Ronald Reagan.

At a European security conference earlier this month, Putin said the treaty was outdated, and that many nations had since developed the medium-range missiles eliminated by Russia and the United States.

Putin has warned that Russia could respond to the deployment of U.S. missile defense in Europe by building new, more efficient weapons. He had previously boasted that Russia was developing new missiles that would be impossible to intercept.

Solovtsov said Russia would continue gradually replacing Soviet-built intercontinental ballistic missiles with new Topol-M missiles and would fully rearm around 2016 while maintaining levels under a 2002 arms control treaty signed by Putin and
President Bush. That treaty obliges both sides to cut their strategic nuclear weapons by about two-thirds by 2012.

"It's possible to deploy such weapons shortly if the situation requires that," Solovtsov said.

Could this be seen as a threat to the US?
Just what will Russia do if this ''Defence'' is implemented?

mike65

Jasus someones been watching Dr Strangelove, Fail Safe or The Bedford Incident.

The US will build if they want to and the Russians can do feck all. They'd do better to concern themselves with potential internal threats.

Mike.

RedPlanet

I guess USA want to kick start another arms race.
Bush doing his buddies favours you know, that's what he's there for.

Judt

Russia is posturing. Attacking a member of the EU as well as a US ally (thus involving NATO, an organisation which probably wouldn't mind a bit of focus back to the old bear enemy) would be interesting. Most likely the EU would just roll over Russia and take that flippen gas and oil they're holding us to ransom for. The Russian military is a big brothel full of poorly trained, led and motivated conscripts; and it can't even afford some of the best kit Russia puts onto the export market. We'd kick the doors in and this time, given plenty of winter wear, the whole house would come crumbling down, fairly damn fast. They know that.

marco murphy

Russia and take that flippen gas and oil they're holding us to ransom for

We?

Judt

Poblachtach wrote:

We?

Where do you think most of Europe gets its gas from, and guess who has their North Atlantic gas fields running out... Shell To Sea, Quick, Or We're All Burning Turf For The Winter

RedPlanet

Judt wrote:

The Russian military is a big brothel full of poorly trained, led and motivated conscripts; and it can't even afford some of the best kit Russia puts onto the export market. We'd kick the doors in and this time, given plenty of winter wear, the whole house would come crumbling down, fairly damn fast. They know that.

Hmm, i seem to recall a couple meglomaniacs in history thinking similiarly.
Particularly when they could contrast the poorly equipped russian armies versus they're own well trained armies equiped with the most modern of weaponry.

:rolleyes:

Jimboo_Jones

Indeed, and I'm just wondering how you would 'roll over' a country which still has 1,000's of nukes.

Judt

RedPlanet wrote:

Hmm, i seem to recall a couple meglomaniacs in history thinking similiarly.
Particularly when they could contrast the poorly equipped russian armies versus they're own well trained armies equiped with the most modern of weaponry.

:rolleyes:

Yes, because Napoleon and Hitler, among others in history, failed it obviously means that anyone invading Russia is entirely doomed to failure.

The Russian state is a hollow military force, therefore the Russians bandying about military threats is laughable. Russia's military is as scary as Iraq's was in 1990: Plenty big, with plenty of tanks. That is, with plenty of targets for airmen.

Dontico

Judt wrote:

Yes, because Napoleon and Hitler, among others in history, failed it obviously means that anyone invading Russia is entirely doomed to failure.

The Russian state is a hollow military force, therefore the Russians bandying about military threats is laughable. Russia's military is as scary as Iraq's was in 1990: Plenty big, with plenty of tanks. That is, with plenty of targets for airmen.

you forget that russia has a "sectret weapon". i dont know what it is but putin said they had a new weapon that cant be detected on radar, last year. he specifically said the bomb woouldnt be able to be stoped by the americans in time to react.

Judt

Dontico wrote:

you forget that russia has a "sectret weapon". i dont know what it is but putin said they had a new weapon that cant be detected on radar, last year. he specifically said the bomb woouldnt be able to be stoped by the americans in time to react.

Yeah, just like Dr Geobbles was assuring everyone of the wunderwaffen ready to stop the Reds in Poland... On the Oder... In Berlin.... The Reichstag....

mr_angry

Dontico wrote:

you forget that russia has a "sectret weapon". i dont know what it is but putin said they had a new weapon that cant be detected on radar, last year. he specifically said the bomb woouldnt be able to be stoped by the americans in time to react.

Its not really that secret tbh. BBC News have readily available documentation on the testing of this supposedly "radar invisible" weapon.

In any case, nobody is going to go invading Russia anytime soon. The advent of nukes has put paid to any theory of them being an easy target. Sure, you might get across the border, mince their troops, and destroy their tanks. However, by the time you reach Moscow, you can bet that your homeland is now being pummelled by a volley of atomic warheads, and the majority of your population is dead. Still, you'll have plenty of oil and gas to power the underground caverns that you'll be inhabiting for the next 1,000 years. Every cloud... :rolleyes:

Sponge Bob

Dontico wrote:

you forget that russia has a "secret weapon". i dont know what it is

I do, now shhhhhhhhh!, its secret !

purple'n'gold

Judt wrote:

Yes, because Napoleon and Hitler, among others in history, failed it obviously means that anyone invading Russia is entirely doomed to failure.

The Russian state is a hollow military force, therefore the Russians bandying about military threats is laughable. Russia's military is as scary as Iraq's was in 1990: Plenty big, with plenty of tanks. That is, with plenty of targets for airmen.

Excuse me, but Russia has nukes, 1000’s of them and wouldn’t hesitate for one minute to use them to defend themselves.

The Russian state is a hollow military force, therefore the Russians bandying about military threats is laughable. Russia's military is as scary as Iraq's was in 1990: Plenty big, with plenty of tanks. That is, with plenty of targets for airmen.

With conscription in effect and a massive population, even after their conventional military was ground to bits, any invading force would still have to occupy the country. We've seen how well the Coalition has managed in Iraq, who has a far smaller population, and Russian people are probably alot more patriotic about their country. Add to this if a western nation was behind the invasion, further fuel to the fires of the old communist followers who are still about.

The only way to deal with Russia would be through launching nukes, and I can't see any western nation surviving the backlash to opening that Pandora's box. It would be suicide either way.

Judt

Yes, but what I'm saying is that the Russians know this, too, so any military threats they make is all bluster.

RedPlanet

Judt wrote:

Yes, because Napoleon and Hitler, among others in history, failed it obviously means that anyone invading Russia is entirely doomed to failure.

The Russian state is a hollow military force, therefore the Russians bandying about military threats is laughable. Russia's military is as scary as Iraq's was in 1990: Plenty big, with plenty of tanks. That is, with plenty of targets for airmen.

Why so confident of USA's military capabilities (or a combination of EU countries)?
Look at America's dismal record, they go up against 3rd world countries with overwhelming might and still can't eek out much a victory.
Compared with Napoleon and Hitler's armies and victories, the yanks nor present EU armies don't measure up at all.

Judt

RedPlanet wrote:

Why so confident of USA's military capabilities (or a combination of EU countries)?
Look at America's dismal record, they go up against 3rd world countries with overwhelming might and still can't eek out much a victory.
Compared with Napoleon and Hitler's armies and victories, the yanks nor present EU armies don't measure up at all.

There's a difference between invading a country and occupying it. The first part the yanks have down to a tee.

Judt

Judt wrote:

There's a difference between invading a country and occupying it. The first part the yanks have down to a tee.

Against way inferior armed forces. None of its enemies have had a military tradition to equal Russia, who have a fairly decent technological base to work from. The US has only ever really faced third-world military powers. While Russia is a shadow of the communist powerhouse, it is still a manufacturer of very good weapon systems, well capable of combating American reliance on airpower. Add to this, the sheer logistics in invading a country of the size of Russia, I doubt America would be able to acomplish it. With Iraq they spent months building up supplies and men to invade them beforehand. They wouldn't have that ability to so against Russia. And this is based on the assumption that they don't have forces in Iraq and afghanistan draining their resources.

We could go around and around on this subject. Its not really proveable, unless it actually occured. There hasn't been a conflict between two major powers since WW2 (Russia is still a major power, though not a superpower. Although I wonder if America could stlll be considered a superpower).

sovtek

From what I've read the missle "defense" system the US has now can't hit the broad side of a barn much less some sinister secret weapon the Russians may or may not have.
Russia has a few options of putting a hurt on the US and Europe right now were "we" to piss it off too much.
Of course that doesn't mean Bush and Blair aren't sadistic and stupid enough to try though.

Judt

Russia is a third world military........ I know when you think of Russia you think of the Red Army, but nowadays its soldiers consider it to be a good week (or month) if they actually get paid; their commanders are selling what hardware they have, and they can't afford the new stuff (the Russian army buys about ten T-90's a year); bullying is rampant, morale is extremely low, even their elite special forces couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery (anyone recall the theatre siege a few years back?)

The Russian army has 1,037,000 active duty troops, of whom 330,000 are conscripted every year, with a conscript doing two years. One of Russia's top military analysts, Alexander Golts, expects Russia to reach only 15% volunteer status by 2008. The conscripts regularly fail medical and intelligence standards, the Russian army complains that it can only actually pick from 11% of the draftee's it should have available to call up because everyone does everything they can to avoid the draft. What we get are recruits beaten until they have to have their genitals amputated.

The Russian military is no better than a very large third world military, and as many military commanders might tell you, the bigger a military is in the state of Russia's, the worse it is in combat. So, speaking theoretically, the Russian military could do squat to a country like Poland.

RedPlanet

I'll judge russian military capability on it's merits.
And they have a reasonably successful history, Afganistan and the Kursk disaster notwithstanding.
However they are the ones whom really won WWII, they fought all biggest German armies, they invaded germany unaided and took Berlin and got to Hitler.
So, that's a pretty big feather in their cap.

I wonder would a moderator move this to the "Miltary" board as it's got feck all to do with politics.

Judt

RedPlanet wrote:

I'll judge russian military capability on it's merits.
And they have a reasonably successful history, Afganistan and the Kursk disaster notwithstanding.
However they are the ones whom really won WWII, they fought all biggest German armies, they invaded germany unaided and took Berlin and got to Hitler.
So, that's a pretty big feather in their cap.

I wonder would a moderator move this to the "Miltary" board as it's got feck all to do with politics.

Yeah, that was 60 years ago when aircraft were mainly propeller driven, most soldiers used bolt-action rifles - the Russian one had a rate of fire of 15 rounds per minute, compared to the 700 or more you get out of assault rifles today. Bombers measured their accuracy in miles, not meters; computers took up entire buildings... etc etc.

There is no comparison between any military of 1945 and one of today. It's stupid to even think of it. Afghanistan and Chechnya are the two major wars which the Russian army has fought in recent memory; and Afghanistan was back in the days when it was the feared and mighty Soviet Union. The Russian military is a third world, third rate force that couldn't threaten anyone with any kind of serious backing.

purple'n'gold

the Russian military could do squat to a country like Poland.

I wouldn’t put my mortgage on that!