How fast to play this one

spectre · 19-02-2007 1:04am #1

2/4NL, I've been playing agressively preflop raising with a wide range particularly in position. This time I elect to see a cheap one.
I have also been aggressive on the flop and have made some steals with raises/check-raises

Hero is in CO with $593.75
Villain 1 is UTG with $398.50 he is 20/7/4
Villain 2 is BB with $853 stats are 21/13/6 after 50 hands

Everone limps around to me in the CO, I limp with 4h 6h, button folds. SB completes, BB checks

Flop: (20)

5d 8s 7d

BB bets 16, UTG raises to 46, folded around to me. I?

valor · 19-02-2007 1:06am

id make it $170, call a shove

imalegend · 19-02-2007 5:22am

im just home from the fitz and i lost my stack in a similar situation.....big difference was the stack size though......i only had 125 in front and the flop was 3 5 7 with 2 spades....i had 4 6 of hearts...utg bet 25 ,then a clown who was willing to put it all in on any sort of flush draw made it 50.....i push for 125 willing to draw against him and he makes his flush on the turn...no biggy....10 6 of spades he had....i found it quite amusing...as i walked out!!i could have called the 50 on the flop and folded the turn when he hit but i wanted to double up and had to gamble there and then when i was a big fav.

in the hand above i reckon utg is about to badly play an over pair so i would smooth call here......if the turn is blank you will more then likely get a bet from either of the them and be able to raise it there....i dont think making it 170 is the right play as you may kill your action....it is a draw heavy board but i doubt utg has you beat at this stage.

LuckyLloyd · 19-02-2007 9:40am

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peeko · 19-02-2007 11:07am

valor wrote:

id make it $170, call a shove

Whats your reason for a RR so big?

Gholimoli · 19-02-2007 11:18am

imalegend wrote:

im just home from the fitz and i lost my stack in a similar situation.....big difference was the stack size though......i only had 125 in front and the flop was 3 5 7 with 2 spades....i had 4 6 of hearts...utg bet 25 ,then a clown who was willing to put it all in on any sort of flush draw made it 50.....i push for 125 willing to draw against him and he makes his flush on the turn...no biggy....10 6 of spades he had....i found it quite amusing...as i walked out!!i could have called the 50 on the flop and folded the turn when he hit but i wanted to double up and had to gamble there and then when i was a big fav.

in the hand above i reckon utg is about to badly play an over pair so i would smooth call here......if the turn is blank you will more then likely get a bet from either of the them and be able to raise it there....i dont think making it 170 is the right play as you may kill your action....it is a draw heavy board but i doubt utg has you beat at this stage.

This is all rubbish.
Shove.
There are lots of cards that could come on the turn that will either kill your action or will make your hand second best(for example any diamond).
There has been a bet and a raise and now your over call would show real strength here.
Your best chance is trying to make this look like you don’t want a call by shoving.
Judging by the action you should get a call in one place and that’s god for you.

LuckyLloyd · 19-02-2007 11:18am

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LuckyLloyd · 19-02-2007 11:22am

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Gholimoli · 19-02-2007 11:46am

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Ehsan, do you not think it is better to make it in the region of 150 if the hero has been playing flops aggro with check raisies and re - steals? Surely, it might be better to give one of the villians the opportunity to think they might have some folding equity? Surely if we shove now we will be giving an overpair / two pair the best possible chance of dumping their hand?

BB bets out,villain raises,now you reraise .
What do you think they put you on?
They will fold all the hands that they will fold had you shoved and will call with all the hands that they would call had you shoved.
I mean if you make it 170 there they would still fold all their one pair hands more than likely cuz your line looks so strong.
The difference is a shove may look like a still on that board.
Also if you make it 170 and get a call then you will have a very hard decision on the turn should a the board pairs, a diamond falls.
These are cards that either your opponent is drawing to if he calls,or he will put you on them resulting in no more money going in while you have the best hand.
The main thing here is that if any one is calling a 170 bet then chances are they will call a shove as well based on the way you have been playing.

imalegend · 19-02-2007 11:47am

shove is a great play(not)....what hand is callin a shove for 593 dolllars???think if you were in the bb or utg why would you bet/raise here....

you are gambling by letting another card come off on the turn with a call but imo if it a blank you will get paid.....and how can you say you will get a call here if you shove....some1 has put 46 in the pot so he is going to call 500 more.....bring me to this site that there are that many idiots on...

i see the point of the raise to possibly 150 ok but a shove has to be a mad play!

and your logic of not wanting to make a hard decision is just beautiful!

sikes · 19-02-2007 12:07pm

calling is really bad.

How many scare cards are there that will slow you down on the turn?

11 diamonds, 3 jacks, 3 fives, 3 sevens, 2 eights.

I dont mind raising or pushing, both look just as strong, and i doubt any set is going anywhere.

eoghan104 · 19-02-2007 12:09pm

shove is terrible here in my opinion! were in position and can afford to take the chance that a blank will come on the turn! if we push only set is calling some of the time and thats it!

sikes · 19-02-2007 12:17pm

eoghan104 wrote:

shove is terrible here in my opinion! were in position and can afford to take the chance that a blank will come on the turn! if we push only set is calling some of the time and thats it!

this is completely wrong.

You essentially have a 50/50 shot of hitting a blank which will allow you to bet the turn. You have to make people pay for their draws, and get money into the pot when you have the best of it. By calling and betting a blank turn, all straight and flush draws are disappearing, like they *probably* will on the flop, however you are giving them a free card to beat you.

This is pretty basic stuff.

imalegend · 19-02-2007 12:30pm

sikes...so the theory that you are putting forward is make it 150/170 on the flop perhaps pushing and if you are called you are still left with a tough decision as you pointed out over 20 scare cards possibly to come......

imo i still think there is plenty of play left in the hand....your hand is strong enough to get paid by many weaker hands...it is a draw heavy board and making it 150/170 is probabaly the correct line of play...

poker is about making tough decisions and i would love to be in this position in this hand.

eoghan104 · 19-02-2007 12:31pm

sikes wrote:

this is completely wrong.

You essentially have a 50/50 shot of hitting a blank which will allow you to bet the turn. You have to make people pay for their draws, and get money into the pot when you have the best of it. By calling and betting a blank turn, all straight and flush draws are disappearing, like they *probably* will on the flop, however you are giving them a free card to beat you.

This is pretty basic stuff.

So you push here expecting what to call you? are you happy to take it down here all the time?

sikes · 19-02-2007 12:35pm

eoghan104 wrote:

So you push here expecting what to call you? are you happy to take it down here all the time?

I would push or raise depending on how the game and I have been playing.

I doubt sets are gong anywhere here, ever, on such a draw heavy board.

This isnt a case of where we have the nuts and should let one player catch up, never mind three.

Calling is almost worse than folding.

Gholimoli · 19-02-2007 12:35pm

imalegend wrote:

poker is about making tough decisions and i would love to be in this position in this hand.

LMAO at this.
man you know poker well.

imalegend · 19-02-2007 12:43pm

i love this site as people are so open minded...people like gholimoli just make you want 2 keep on posting here!...have you bein asked to put your portion in super systems 3 yet??i cant wait to read it...

and where are theses 3 players sikes??there are 2 villians in the hand and if you make it 150/170 you will probably get heads up...

sikes · 19-02-2007 12:49pm

imalegend wrote:

and where are theses 3 players sikes??there are 2 villians in the hand and if you make it 150/170 you will probably get heads up...

Unless the SB open folded, which is very unlikely, there are three players left to act after us.

I dont mind raising at all, as I have already said.

RasTa · 19-02-2007 1:05pm

Calling is terrible. As Valour said, 3 bet then shove the turn. Although the 3 bet would/should get rid of the flush draw if the board pairs on the turn fold to a shove.

Gholimoli · 19-02-2007 1:50pm

Calling here is horrible.
UTG either has raised with a made hand or a draw.

1.He has a made hand
If he has a made hand its more than likely an over pair or a set.
If he has a set then he will call a shove here almost always but he may not if another card to a str or flush hits by the river so by flat calling you are reducing the amount of money that is going in to the pot while you are ahead and would get paid with a lesser hand.

If he has a hand like over pair then your call would put him on alert immediately.
There has been a bet and a raise and now you are over calling.
Any card that completes a draw will stop him from putting more money in the pot and even if a scare card does not him he prob would not call big bets anyway cuz our line looks strong.

2.He is on a draw
If he is on a draw then he will put you on a made hand.
This will stop him from putting any money in if the draw does not come in and almost any draw that does come in would make our hand second best here.
So this results in no more money going in while we are ahead.

Why shoving is better than a raise to 150-170
The reason for this is the only hands that will call a reraise on 150-170 on that bored are :
Sets,OESFD, maybe two pair .
I think if a hand will call a raise of 150-170 then he will call a shove also.
By raising that amount you are effectively saying you are playing the hand for stacks and you are showing that you plan to get the rest of it in on the turn and river so if any one is calling you they know this, so you are much better off shoving on the flop.

kebabfest · 19-02-2007 2:29pm

I dont see how anybody can disagree with this logic.

sikes · 19-02-2007 5:23pm

I think the key to raise vs allin is the fact that we could raise to 170 and then have the UTG raiser call with a FD without making a mistake. Which would be pretty bad.

spectre · 19-02-2007 11:33pm

I shoved and they both folded quickly. UTG claimed he had AA

It was raise or push here. Calling was never an option for the reasons given. Pushing looks strong but not as uber-strong as a raise, we will get calls from sets and sometimes 2-pair and huge draw hands. Gholi said it best in his last post.

Thanks for the replies lads.

How fast to play this one

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