Touts

Allo Rickenback

What can be done about plonkers on e-bay selling tickets for matches?

Can the IRFU not stop do a bit of undercover work to find ticket details and invalidate them? Some of the ticket details or clearly visible on e-bay. That would stop it fairly quickly......

leeroybrown

If you search on Boards you might find some interesting threads about the antics perpetrated against the eBay touts selling tickets for Munsters HEC final.

Unless things have changed it's quite awkward to get eBay to clean up these auctions. Even if they do they'll just re-appear as very expensive scarves with 'free' tickets.

LFC5Times

From what i know the IRFU are doing things about touts and ebay tickets etc,but sadly like in every sport not enough is done by the main bodies,maybe they should have undercover gardai arrest every tout and confiscate the tickets.

Anyway from what i know, ask some of the GAA clubs about why they have tickets for sale on eBay!

komodosp

Well the thing is that some touts can provide a service for people who have bought tickets that no longer want them... getting around that annoying "No refunds" policy that nearly all ticket dealers have. As long as they have that policy, I have no sympathy for them.

But I agree that that doesn't apply to people who buy tickets just to sell them on at inflated prices later. What they are doing is immoral but really there's no way I can think of to stop them without becoming fascist bastards, besides buying them and then leaving really bad feedback on eBay...

And as far as I know, touting isn't a criminal offence, so if the IRFU just invalidated a ticket because it was touted, they *would* be committing an offence by rendering useless something that they have sold. (though maybe they could include it on the terms and conditions which would invalidate what I just said) And anyway you say the details are viewable on ebay, the touts would just stop displaying them.

I would say, allow refunds. This way, people who can't make the match could give the tickets back and get their money back, then all the returned tickets could be resold a few days before the match, thus slightly reducing the demand that the touts are taking advantage of, and taking all the moral high ground that the touts have.

To further reduce touting, and strike a balance, how about this:
The buyer must name the person when they are buying. Then whoever is going to the match using that batch of tickets, must be accompanied by the named person (they need a passport or something as ID). This allows the flexibility of bringing friends without knowing they are going, surprising people with presents of tickets, etc. Furthermore you can name more than one person, e.g. if different people are arriving at different times and meeting up beforehand isn't practical. But to the seller on eBay, he'll have to be actually going to the match and meet up with the buyer beforehand (as he doesn't know who the buyer is before he buys it himself).

athtrasna

I don't think that is totally practical - much as I hate touts! How often does someone use a friends/parents/work credit card to buy tickets? What about spares due to cancellations?

I currently have 2 spare tickets for Murrayfield, due to our travelling partners having to pull out. I can't collect them until I get there so I can't really advertise them here. Am hoping to off-load them over there but I won't be touting. Would prefer to give them to a real fan and face value.

Eoin

Unfortunately, without inconveniencing genuine fans, it is quite hard to clamp down 100% on these things.

There are a few things that can be done though:

Make it illegal; look at UK football match tickets. I suppose it isn't up to eBay to be moral police, so they won't ban anything that isn't illegal. I still wrote to them suggesting they don't allow it. If it is made illegal though, this cuts out a massive sales channel for the scumbags.

The IRFU / respective unions IRB should have some system where you can report the ticket numbers of the touted tickets. I am sure they can trace down the organisation or person they went to, and they can be questioned.

I don't believe in invalidating the tickets - the people paying the big prices are the victims. We had to pay way over the odds for the Italian match tickets. I had the flights booked a year ago, so I wasn't going to sit on my moral high horse and watch the game in some pub in Rome, so I just had to grin and bear it. God knows how much the tickets would be going for, had we beaten the French :eek:

komodosp

I don't think that is totally practical - much as I hate touts! How often does someone use a friends/parents/work credit card to buy tickets? What about spares due to cancellations?

No I mean don't just use whoever's name is on the credit card, but get the buyer to specify what name - doesn't matter who's credit card or if you pay with cash.
As for cancellations, they should just give you the money back, then resell them - I mean for big matches (where the touting goes on), they are hardly worried about not filling the seats...

Chucky the tree

touts are no worse then the people who pay the prices. If you want to get rid of all touts, refuse to pay the stupid amount of money they want.

shoegirl

komodosp wrote:

Well the thing is that some touts can provide a service for people who have bought tickets that no longer want them... getting around that annoying "No refunds" policy that nearly all ticket dealers have. As long as they have that policy, I have no sympathy for them.

...

And as far as I know, touting isn't a criminal offence, so if the IRFU just invalidated a ticket because it was touted, they *would* be committing an offence by rendering useless something that they have sold. (though maybe they could include it on the terms and conditions which would invalidate what I just said) And anyway you say the details are viewable on ebay, the touts would just stop displaying them.

I would say, allow refunds. This way, people who can't make the match could give the tickets back and get their money back, then all the returned tickets could be resold a few days before the match, thus slightly reducing the demand that the touts are taking advantage of, and taking all the moral high ground that the touts have.

To further reduce touting, and strike a balance, how about this:
The buyer must name the person when they are buying. Then whoever is going to the match using that batch of tickets, must be accompanied by the named person (they need a passport or something as ID). This allows the flexibility of bringing friends without knowing they are going, surprising people with presents of tickets, etc. Furthermore you can name more than one person, e.g. if different people are arriving at different times and meeting up beforehand isn't practical. But to the seller on eBay, he'll have to be actually going to the match and meet up with the buyer beforehand (as he doesn't know who the buyer is before he buys it himself).

I've had that gripe with TM for years as its extremely frustrating enough paying their extortionate charges when they basically print out a ticket for you and take your cash. I notice that TM in other countries do operate ticket exchange services but not in Ireland.

Of course with sports events like this a lot of the problem is the fact that so many tickets end up farmed out to corporates and institutions.

That said your ideas aren't bad - I would suggest that the best situation would be electronic ticketing on smartcards that are reusable - so there is a real incentive to sell on a ticket since you'd have to get a new smartcard, no doubt charging a nice amount to replace cards.

A big part of the problem with ebay touts is that they get their cronies to join up and place manofstraw votes in order to push the prices up. I used to work with a guy who did that so he could get more for his tickets.

In all honesty, its good for ebay to offer tickets for sale (I have sold unwanted concert tickets at below face value in the past myself) but a wise policy would be if sellers were prohibited from selling above face value. If ebay can scour out software pirates and counterfeit goods, I cannot see why they cannot eliminate ticket touts also.

Chucky the tree

probaly because ticket touting isnt illegal.

Peyton Manning

Some sort of identification unique to the first buyer. Maybe name and address, or do what Glastonbury music festival are doing and print the buyers photo on the ticket.

copacetic

I don't think it is fair to blame the touts on ebay for much, a lot of the clubs are selling theirtickets on via large scale organised touting to corporate deals.

For this reason we will see a large english crowd on sat when there should only be 7k or so of them

Chucky the tree

Archimedes wrote:

Some sort of identification unique to the first buyer. Maybe name and address, or do what Glastonbury music festival are doing and print the buyers photo on the ticket.

what happens if your sick and cant make it? Left with a ticket you cant use and out of pocket?


Unless they offer refunds, thats a stupid idea.

Peyton Manning

Obviously it would have to be implemented along with a refund policy. Common sense tbh.

LFC5Times

daveym wrote:

I don't think it is fair to blame the touts on ebay for much, a lot of the clubs are selling theirtickets on via large scale organised touting to corporate deals.

For this reason we will see a large english crowd on sat when there should only be 7k or so of them

Not entirely true at all.

Alot of clubs do corporate deals whch they need to survive as a good few clubs would be extinct by now if they couldnt.

They only sell a small % to corpoates and there not Enlgish corporates because the Irish corporates are the ones willing to pay the money so they dont need to sell them to the English.
Admittedly some clubs take the proverbial and sell a decent sized % to corporates which is extremely unfair on its members.

I know in my club anybody who applied for tickets for one of the Home 6 Nations game got them and about 90-95% got them for the other game.
These are all types of members incl. those you dont see set foot in the club.

Also these corporate people in some cases are members of the clubs who have their own businesses and are wealthy so they dont even have to sell it to corpoates they dont know.

The IRFU sell tickets to corporates and the reason they turn a blind eye to clubs selling a small % to corporates is because the IRFU KNOW that clubs are not given enough money by the IRFU to cover costs.

And the reason the IRFU know this is because most members of the IRFU came from these clubs that struggle for money.

RuggieBear

LFC5Times wrote:

The IRFU sell tickets to corporates and the reason they turn a blind eye to clubs selling a small % to corporates is because the IRFU KNOW that clubs are not given enough money by the IRFU to cover costs.
.

perhaps if the clubs stopped paying their bloody players they wouldn't require so much money.

LFC5Times

RuggieBear wrote:

perhaps if the clubs stopped paying their bloody players they wouldn't require so much money.

Not all clubs are paying their players and thats a fact and dont try tell me they all do because i can tell you they all dont.

Just cos Tarf splash the cash dont assume all other clubs do.
Lansdowne splash the cash because they need to to attract players as they have no school etc
But not all clubs do,clubs have realised that they are the 3rd/4th tier of ~Irish rugby and theres no need to pay except for a few clubs.

Also the money given for travelling to AIL matches by the IRFU doesnt even cover the clubs costs for a bus for all the away matches they need, and if they are down in Cork and playing up North they will have to travel up on the Friday and stay in a hotel and if a club has to do that twice a season as well as say a bus from Cork to Dublin or Dublin to Belfast for other closer matches,the money given by the IRFU for these expenses doesnt even come close to covering it.

Ask your club and they will tell you.

copacetic

LFC5Times wrote:

Not entirely true at all.

Alot of clubs do corporate deals whch they need to survive as a good few clubs would be extinct by now if they couldnt.

They only sell a small % to corpoates and there not Enlgish corporates because the Irish corporates are the ones willing to pay the money so they dont need to sell them to the English.
Admittedly some clubs take the proverbial and sell a decent sized % to corporates which is extremely unfair on its members.

I know in my club anybody who applied for tickets for one of the Home 6 Nations game got them and about 90-95% got them for the other game.
These are all types of members incl. those you dont see set foot in the club.

Also these corporate people in some cases are members of the clubs who have their own businesses and are wealthy so they dont even have to sell it to corpoates they dont know.

The IRFU sell tickets to corporates and the reason they turn a blind eye to clubs selling a small % to corporates is because the IRFU KNOW that clubs are not given enough money by the IRFU to cover costs.

And the reason the IRFU know this is because most members of the IRFU came from these clubs that struggle for money.

you said not entirely true and then agreed and just gave reasons.

my point was people shouldn't complain about touting when the clubs provide nearly all the tickets that end up with the touts.

I'm not aware of any tickets sold by IRFU to corporates outside of the suites.

RuggieBear

I left my club over them paying players. Bunch of ****ing mercenaries nearly bankrupted my club and destroyed the ethos of the club.

I know most clubs all the way down to the Leinster leagues pay at least some of their players.

As for the buses malarkey....when i play at an away venue i have to get a lift of the other players. If your club cannot afford a bus then get the players to drive to the match themselves. Tis What i had to do playing junior rugby.

Eoin

RuggieBear wrote:

perhaps if the clubs stopped paying their bloody players they wouldn't require so much money.

They wouldn't require as much, but the operational costs are still huge. For instance, junior clubs have to travel around their province every other Sunday, and occasionally further afield again in the cases of some competitions. This adds up very quickly.

LFC5Times

daveym wrote:

you said not entirely true and then agreed and just gave reasons.

my point was people shouldn't complain about touting when the clubs provide nearly all the tickets that end up with the touts.

I'm not aware of any tickets sold by IRFU to corporates outside of the suites.

Clubs dont give tickets to to touts.
Clubs give tickets to members expecting that they will be used by themselves not given to touts.
How are clubs supposed to make sure there members go to the game themselves?

I know of members who have been thrown out of clubs after been selling tickets to touts,thats all clubs can do so dont blame clubs because you havent got a ticket for tomorrow,i will give you a spare schoolboy for free if you want ?

Oh and why should you be aware if the IRFU sell tickets to corporates? they are not going to tell you,its hush hush,you just have to ask around and you will find out.

ANXIOUS

RuggieBear wrote:

As for the buses malarkey....when i play at an away venue i have to get a lift of the other players. If your club cannot afford a bus then get the players to drive to the match themselves. Tis What i had to do playing junior rugby.

But then you'd get lads asking for expenses i.e. petrol. It could be very costly for them over a season. Did you not get/expect something towards the cost?

RuggieBear

tbh i was just delighted to playing for the team.

we'd all give the driver a few quid for petrol ourselves.

LFC5Times

RuggieBear wrote:

I left my club over them paying players. Bunch of ****ing mercenaries nearly bankrupted my club and destroyed the ethos of the club.

I know most clubs all the way down to the Leinster leagues pay at least some of their players.

As for the buses malarkey....when i play at an away venue i have to get a lift of the other players. If your club cannot afford a bus then get the players to drive to the match themselves. Tis What i had to do playing junior rugby.

Thats sad but thats what can happen if the wrong people get in control of a club.
I agree that alot of clubs do pay incl. some of the Leinster League clubs but not all clubs do.
What happens is that players who arent being paid get annoyed at those who do get paid and i guarantee you a team would rather nobody gets paid and play for the jersey then a few players get paid and if a club can get a team to agree to that,it will make for a better happier team and i know of a couple of clubs its happened at and they are performing better than ever b4.

Player insurance is huge nowadays and a players subscription just covers that,then you have jerseys,medical gear,balls(rip off),tackling pads,floodlights on top of that and a players subscription comes nowhere to covering all that and there could be 5/6 teams in a club.

Also buses can be from Cork to Dublin taking 3.5 hours on the day of a match kicking off at 2.30players dont want to be driving that early in the morning,then there is loadsa gear to take on top of that,loads of pads,balls ,gear etc. All has an effect on a team and can result in relegation and less support and money - its a vicious circle.

RuggieBear

LFC5Times wrote:

Thats sad but thats what can happen if the wrong people get in control of a club.
I agree that alot of clubs do pay incl. some of the Leinster League clubs but not all clubs do.
What happens is that players who arent being paid get annoyed at those who do get paid and i guarantee you a team would rather nobody gets paid and play for the jersey then a few players get paid and if a club can get a team to agree to that,it will make for a better happier team and i know of a couple of clubs its happened at and they are performing better than ever b4.

Player insurance is huge nowadays and a players subscription just covers that,then you have jerseys,medical gear,balls(rip off),tackling pads,floodlights on top of that and a players subscription comes nowhere to covering all that and there could be 5/6 teams in a club.

I'd agree with all that.

Insurance is a ****ing killer:(

copacetic

LFC5Times wrote:

Clubs dont give tickets to to touts.
Clubs give tickets to members expecting that they will be used by themselves not given to touts.
How are clubs supposed to make sure there members go to the game themselves?

I know of members who have been thrown out of clubs after been selling tickets to touts,thats all clubs can do so dont blame clubs because you havent got a ticket for tomorrow,i will give you a spare schoolboy for free if you want ?

Oh and why should you be aware if the IRFU sell tickets to corporates? they are not going to tell you,its hush hush,you just have to ask around and you will find out.

you seem to be picking me up wrong again, i'm not blaming the clubs for anything or indeed complaining about anything. I didn't say the clubs 'gave the tickets to the touts', I said most of the tickets the touts end up with start out with the clubs. I'm sure we all know of a few clubs who sell their entire allocation every year as their main fundraiser. The money from the years when we play england and france at home can keep a club going until the next time. I don't blame the clubs for doing this but it is what it is.

My simple point was that everyone is up and arms over the touts when they are just part of the system the way it is setup

LFC5Times

daveym wrote:

you seem to be picking me up wrong again, i'm not blaming the clubs for anything or indeed complaining about anything. I didn't say the clubs 'gave the tickets to the touts', I said most of the tickets the touts end up with start out with the clubs. I'm sure we all know of a few clubs who sell their entire allocation every year as their main fundraiser. The money from the years when we play england and france at home can keep a club going until the next time. I don't blame the clubs for doing this but it is what it is.

My simple point was that everyone is up and arms over the touts when they are just part of the system the way it is setup

Ok.

Well thats where legislation etc needs to come into play that touts can be arrested and tickets confiscated and given to people looking for a ticket at the match(as there is always loads).
Then the ticket is traced to where it came from and the club(if its a club) can deal with the member themselves(which should result in expulsion imo)

If clubs sell all their tickets corporate thats a sad state of affairs for the members unless they agree to it and luckily there is a few clubs out there that members will get tickets at.

Eoin

LFC5Times wrote:

Ok.

Well thats where legislation etc needs to come into play that touts can be arrested and tickets confiscated and given to people looking for a ticket at the match(as there is always loads).
Then the ticket is traced to where it came from and the club(if its a club) can deal with the member themselves(which should result in expulsion imo)

Absolutely - it has to be legislated for. Once it becomes illegal then eBay, buy and sell and the lines probably won't allow the adverts. I wonder if the "hospitality" part of it provides a loophole though.

LFC5Times wrote:

If clubs sell all their tickets corporate thats a sad state of affairs for the members unless they agree to it and luckily there is a few clubs out there that members will get tickets at.

Sadder still when their club has no cash. It may be different when Lansdowne becomes an all-seater stadium, but I know my club allocated the terrace stickets to the members, and only some of the stand tickets to sponsors etc. I doubt that many members would begrudge their club this vital source of revenue.

komodosp

I can't really see it being legislated for... I mean what about free trade, etc. ?

Think about it - how can they legislate against buying cheap and selling expensive? Just because it's something valuable like tickets... These are a luxury item and so should be fairly low down on the priority list for regulation. I mean look at more essential items like house prices or rent or something first.

It's up to the IRFU to do something about it - if they care (I don't see why they would).

PHB

Think about it - how can they legislate against buying cheap and selling expensive? Just because it's something valuable like tickets... These are a luxury item and so should be fairly low down on the priority list for regulation. I mean look at more essential items like house prices or rent or something first.

Free trade doesn't always mean its right. Just like you wouldn't allow a doctor to push up the price of medicine.
Touts are some of the scum of the earth, taking advantage of peoples love of a game, to make incredible profits for themselves.

rugbug86

The IRFU are trying to stop tickets being sold on ebay. They've a record of all serial numbers and who the tickets go to, and they asked clubs to keep a record of serial numbers and who got what tickets. I know this because one member of one of the clubs I follow put his ticket on ebay, and the club got a bo**o**ing off the IRFU and were told if it wasn't removed there'd be no allocation for next year.

Seemed to work, for that ticket anyway..

Diamondmaker

PHB wrote:

Free trade doesn't always mean its right. Just like you wouldn't allow a doctor to push up the price of medicine.
Touts are some of the scum of the earth, taking advantage of peoples love of a game, to make incredible profits for themselves.

Thats capitalism, I dont agree with touting...we had a spare Ire Eng ticket which I swapped fro Leinster tickets.........eg..

But.........

You cannot legislate for this in Irish law and this has become a hot topic every year when a big match comes up and it still has not been legislated for because it will not fly........constitutionally.

This would be a big vote winner so the party that succesfully legis;ates for this would be on a winner....they have not and have only but discussed this because the law makers advise it will npt work.

Thats my advice and understanding of that particular issue, any further info meet me on the legal forum:D

pred racer

one club I know of, insists that the stubs are returned, or no more tickets for you, could easily work if it were made Irfu policy.