Recommendation for geothermal & underfloor heating supplier

bcoffey

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could recommend a
supplier for geothermal and underfloor heating?

First hand detail on prices, type and spec of system,
floor-space etc. would be great!

thanks!

Ewan

i have talked to pure energy in Limerick and Ashgrove in Kanturk....both were very informative and professional...and more importantly came well recommended,,,,however...as i posted on another thread....i have concerns over the cost of installing geothermal.....quotes came back between €20-27k for horizontal collectors and u.f. to ground and first floor (house is 2800sq ft...not huge)...i just cannot see where the money is going.....heat pump would cost €5-7K (max) and all other materials/electronics another €5-7K.....

I am now seriously thinking about reverting to an oil boiler.....and maybe at some stage down the line, going for sustainable, if the price is more economic...or if i can install it myself

smashey

We have had threads like this before and I have my suspiscions. This is locked while I investigate.

muffler

smashey wrote:

We have had threads like this before and I have my suspiscions. This is locked while I investigate.

Says he while retreating into the shades to retrieve baseball bat

smashey

All seems okay. (Apart from the fact that I can't find the baseball bat).
Thread unlocked.

JosephQ

I got a quote from a british company called Continental based in cornwall (www.continental-ufh.co.uk )for UK £2871.75 ex vat plus delivery worked hard at them on this and getting it free but was hard work, that drawings material and technical help on the phone but would have to install it my self or get plumber to do it they have also said that it would run from a Baxi multi heat pellet model boiler which Sourced from heatmerchants in Letterkenny For Euro 5,500 inc vatand can get a grant from sei for 4,200 after it is commisioned so all in I estimatate it will cost about 10,000 euro minus sei grant this is for six bed house on 1 1/2 stories plus plumbers costs hope this is off help

bcoffey

Ashgrove was recommended to me also. I got a quote from
Nutherm and Dimplex and both were over the 20k also for
a 2,800 sqft house.

I'm seriously considering going for a condensing boiler
instead, with UFH downstairs and rads upstairs.

So now I need recommendations for a boiler! :-)

There seems to be a lot of conflicting messages
about the payback and emissions from a geothermal
unit. Its a lot of money to fork out for a technology
that has such an element of risk/uncertainty about it.

sunnysoutheast

we had a similar dilemma and just couldn't justify the investment required, we were getting phenomenally expensive quotes for geothermal heat pumps, we decided to spend the money on enhanced insulation and heat recovery instead

as for boilers I believe that British Gas (who run a huge service operation) will only support boilers made by Baxi/Worcester Bosch/Vailliant and Ideal without the customer paying extra, as they consider those the most reliable. from personal experience we had a Worcester Bosch combi in the UK which was 9 years old when we moved out and, apart from a new timer and trip switch, was still working fine

frankie2shoes

just got a qoute from heatlink in kilkenny for €17,300 for geothermal heat pump (thermia), horizontal collector (trenches to be dug myself), and underfloor heating over two floors. the house is 2500 sq ft. this qoute is exclusive of the grant which would bring the cost down to €13,100. this seems to be a very good deal and the thermia heat pump comes highly recommended. have looked at all the other options and this seems to be the most cost effective over time.:D

DA-LAD

Has anyone used Galway Energy Systems for thier heat pump install.
Lookin at getting 12kw Nibe off them.
Pls PM if they have done work for ya. Wanna be sure they know what they are at before i sign the dotted line...

Builderfromhell

IMHO heat pumps are a huge waste of money to install, maintain and run. Do some research on internet, talk to people who have had this system for a few years and talk to a few plumbers.
As has been said earlier a good combi boiler, maximum insulation, windows to south, Solar panels for hot water if possible etc. and you're OK. Some modern boilers can later be conveted to run on bio diesel for when oil becomes scarce.

DA-LAD

Anyone?

DA-LAD

Anyone at all.. Please

Sorry, can't help you there. I came the the conclusion that they were too expensive to buy & install, you only get a decent payback if the system is working perfectly & is achieving a COP of 4 or thereabouts.
builderfromhell made a couple of good points there.
I knoy of one couple who installed one in an existing house and it never lived up to expectations (I believe that the insulation was inadequate!)

DA-LAD

Dolanbaker
I dont think they are too expensive to install to be honest
I have got two quotes from two different companies (fitting Nibe and Thermia Heat pumps) to install the heatpump and ufh and plumb the entire house with a pressurised water system.
House is 5 bed with 5 bathrooms. Quotes are coming in at €28-30 inc vat so €25 with the grant

If i went with a conventional boiler and rads I could expect to pay about 20K for plumbing / rads / boiler not to mention the expensive oil bills to go with it from there on in.

if you read through the posts about this topic. Most people who did not fit the system, like yourself,say they are glad they didn't get it. But the people who have got it from reputable installers are very happy with the system.
I have made more phone calls to people than I care to remember over the past two months and all are very happy.I have seen first hand a nibe system running in a new house and I plan to see my second thermia one this weekend

Obviously your house has to be well insulated for the system to be most effective,we all know that. From what i can see, the bad stories we all hear about boils down to poor insulation or cowboy installers. Im hear to fish out the cowboys so i dont get stung like the couple you mention.
But to say the system doesn't work just because you didnt get it yourself is stupid talk.
Just my opinion!

PS For those people thinking about installing geo / underfloor there are two very good articles in the winter edition of self build magazine.Got a free copy in the post from em. (They must get your address from planning applications in the papers) Anyway good tips and advice in it.

smashey

DA-LAD,

I was in a house yesterday that had geothermal & underfloor and the owner is extremely happy with it.

I will get the details within a few days and pm them to you.

DA-LAD

Thanks a thousand smashey.
Da-Lad

sas

DA-LAD wrote: »

Quotes are coming in at €28-30 inc vat so €25 with the grant

The grants could disappear from underneath us at any point. So I wouldn't factor that into the cost.

How long are these people that you have spoken to actually running the heatpump? Would you be happy if after 5 years of trouble free use a component packed it in and it cost you 3k to replace it? What if the company you buy from doesn't survive the downturn, where would the spares\service come from?

Are you expecting electricity prices not to rise? Can we assume that the ESB will always have a night rate tarriff?

These are the questions I am faced with when I consider a HP. I haven't made my mind up yet.

I more and more am of the opinion though that you should blow the budget on as much insulation as possible, it doesn't break down or have a running cost. Then use rads with something that gives a quick response heat up. For now that is oil. When the pellet situation is resolved (i.e prices stop rising and the quality is somewhat reliable) then that may be the answer.

If your house is very well insulated I can't imagine you'd need 20k worth of rads and oil burner. However, it appears its not so easy to downsize an UFH + HP system from my investigations.

Just my 2 cents worth

bauderline

The support and component failure risks you make regarding heat pumps are valid ones, however I believe with careful selection of supplier and appliance these risks can be greatly minimised. Its not difficult, do your research, get references and double check the facts....

I remember my grandfather building a new bungalow about 27 years ago and he decided to put in what was all the rage at the time, the anthracite boiler, now I was only five at the time, but I remember thinking what a pain in the rear it was of having to shovel stuff in and out of this yoke.... and it stunk to high heaven ! I think that was around the time of the first oil crisis. Needless to say, ten years on when oil was dirt cheap it was ripped out and an oil boiler installed. I am sure a lot of you will beg to differ but I can see wooden pellet boilers going the same way.....

Geotherm is here to stay I believe for one simple reason, oil and gas are going to get very expensive and more quickly than people imagine you cannot get away from that hard fact. Yes, electricity will get more expensive as well, but the increases should be moderated greatly as the next generation of CCGT stations come online and renewables play an increasing role.

I summary I would say that Geothermal is a gamble, however I would also its the best bet going forward.... and that's my best guess....

Regards, Peter.

finbarrk

When ye say to insulate the house as much as possible does that mean to say to the builder to put as much insulation as possible everywhere or is there a spec that can be got for a higher grade of insulation?

bauderline

finbarrk,

It is a mixture of the standard / type of insulation that you use and the methodolagy you use to insulate your home. The basics are that you need to insulate the walls, floor and roof by various methods whilst avoiding the pitfalls of cold bridging and mould etc.

The methods used to insulate the floor and the roof are fairly standard and I guess there is not too much debate about it, you can beef up on the standard amount of insulation without too much issue and it is likely a good idea to do so.

The walls are a different matter altogether, its hard to get a straight answer from anyone, especially regarding cavity wall insulation as there is a huge argument about its effectiveness, what type of insulation should be used, problems associated with damp in certain types of cavity insulation, problems with mould if you use insulated dry lining and not ventilate it, problems with heat loss if you use insulated dry lining and do ventilate it.

There seems to be a general crusade against cavity walls and having went back through most of the posts on this forum there is no clear consensus about the best way to implement this methodology.

The theory is that the best way to insulate a house is to put the insulation on the outside of the external wall and render over it. Fair enough but what do you do then if you want to finish the exterior of your house with natural stone ?

Timber frame may be a good solution for some people but I am not to sure how suitable it would be for a large house...

Get familiar with what types of insulation are used and where, then determine what standard of insulation you want to achieve bearing in mind the overall energy rating of the house and compliance with regulations (U Values), then go to your builder and tell him what way you want it done.

You will need to invest some time in understanding what is required to properly insulate your house, but its worthwhile and very important considering rapidly rising engergy costs in the near future are a given...

That's my thoughts... sorry if its a load of waffle !

Peter.

DA-LAD

SAS,
"The grants could disappear from underneath us at any point. So I wouldn't factor that into the cost."

SEI require you to get your grant approved before any installation begins so this should not be and issue. Obviously if they were cut before applying then I would have to re-evaluate the installation.

"How long are these people that you have spoken to actually running the heatpump? Would you be happy if after 5 years of trouble free use a component packed it in and it cost you 3k to replace it? What if the company you buy from doesn't survive the downturn, where would the spares\service come from?"
Any of the companies I am currently talking to are maket leaders in Europe and have a long established reputation and are likely to be the last to suffer as a result of the economic downturn that were all talkin ourselves into.The guys I have spoken to have HP's installed up to two years without any faults. Show me someone who has fitted a wood pellet burner that can say the same.Not to mention having to clean and service them on a regular basis

"Are you expecting electricity prices not to rise? Can we assume that the ESB will always have a night rate tarriff?"

Valid point. Obviousy I would hope not.I think there would be uproar from the likes business / manufacturing sector etc if this did happen.Obviously ESB prices will rise as will oil and gas prices. My parents have an annual oil bill of over €2700 (3 fills)for a similar size structure to my own. If the night rate did go i dont think my ESB would come close to this figure even on the standard ESB rate. I would guess it would rise to €1600 at the most.

Bauderline "In summary I would say that Geothermal is a gamble, however I would also its the best bet going forward.... and that's my best guess.... "

I think so too.

finbarrk

Thanks for that bauderline. It looks like I'd better familiarise myself with the different sorts of insulation, etc. Its a pity there isnt a certain standard that you could pay extra for and just tell the builder that thats what is wanted.

muffler

DA-LAD wrote: »

SAS,
"The grants could disappear from underneath us at any point. So I wouldn't factor that into the cost."

SEI require you to get your grant approved before any installation begins so this should not be and issue. Obviously if they were cut before applying then I would have to re-evaluate the installation.

"How long are these people that you have spoken to actually running the heatpump? Would you be happy if after 5 years of trouble free use a component packed it in and it cost you 3k to replace it? What if the company you buy from doesn't survive the downturn, where would the spares\service come from?"
Any of the companies I am currently talking to are maket leaders in Europe and have a long established reputation and are likely to be the last to suffer as a result of the economic downturn that were all talkin ourselves into.The guys I have spoken to have HP's installed up to two years without any faults. Show me someone who has fitted a wood pellet burner that can say the same.Not to mention having to clean and service them on a regular basis

"Are you expecting electricity prices not to rise? Can we assume that the ESB will always have a night rate tarriff?"

Valid point. Obviousy I would hope not.I think there would be uproar from the likes business / manufacturing sector etc if this did happen.Obviously ESB prices will rise as will oil and gas prices. My parents have an annual oil bill of over €2700 (3 fills)for a similar size structure to my own. If the night rate did go i dont think my ESB would come close to this figure even on the standard ESB rate. I would guess it would rise to €1600 at the most.

Bauderline "In summary I would say that Geothermal is a gamble, however I would also its the best bet going forward.... and that's my best guess.... "

I think so too.

How often does this have to be said - dont post within a quoted posted. Red card for breach of charter.

Nordic

Moderators will probably ban me anyway, saying that this
is advertising but how else can I get the information to you, but if you must, you must!

/mod edit. Correct

Green_Man

Hi,
I cannot recommend anyone in particular, but you can find a list of Geothermal Irish suppliers on BERdirectory.ie and contact them for quotes.

The best option is always shop around and do comparisons on the Price verses the Service vbeen offered.

Regards

RUA101

I've got a quote of 19,500 for an ivt heat pump and underfloor heating up and down. This doesn't include the digging or the vertical loop. Both of these will cost about 6500 as a hidden extra i wasn't told about. All in all 26000.Not including the grant. Is this the norm or what?

dhaslam

All of the quotes in Ireland seem to be far too high for heat pumps. I was quoted up to €12000 for an air to water heat pump but bought one for about £700 and about €100 to install. At this price it probably makes reasonable sense. The extra cost of ground source is probably not worth the difference since average ground temperatures are only a few degrees warmer than air temperatures. As well as underfloor heating there is also a need for heat storage in order to use off peak electricity only.

DA-LAD

Hi All
Have seen a few more instalations of late and have another question!
Have seen two different types of underfloor pipework fitted
One is the multilayer pex pipe which i believe has an oxygen barrier.(layer of aluminium)
Have also seen a clear pex pipe (single layer)being used by other installers
Anyone care to advise the pros and cons of using one please!!

odonoso

Hi

I am using PURE ENERGY TECHNOLGY (pet) in limerick I am installing a Air to water heating pump with underfloor heating on both floor (2800 SQ FEET)
I also installing three solar panels with a 300 liter tank,
Cost me about 35 thousand in total. It's alot of money but I think it's worth it

Do-more

I'd be interested to hear what people's experiance of air source heat pumps during the winter months has been.

Seems to have been quite a few air to water heat pumps installed over the past year, most of what I have seen around the Midlands are Thermia units.

Just wondering in particular if people have experianced much in the way of ice on their evaporators? Althought it's been a pretty mild winter so I'm not sure how representitive it will be.

As for the prices being charged in this country, I had been considering an air to air heat pump to be used as an alternative to firing up the central heating during the day. I was quoted €4500 installed for an IVT Nordic invertor, the exact same unit was being advertised for the equivilant of €2500 installed in Sweden last summer. At Christmas time I saw an ad in Sweden for a Panasonic Invertor for approx. €750 supply only and some of the DIY chains there have Chinese produced Invertors for €500 down from €600 in the summer....

chris1970

i used galway energy systems for a geothermal vertical borehole nibe fighter 12kw ,under floor heating up, and down stairs, all plumbing-supplied, lots of stuff supplied at no extra cost- very good & professional, came it at about 28 k, very happy

-unlaoised-

hello,
i was at homebond's right on the site on thursday night in Mullingar.
There was a company there that did a presentation on renewable technoligies as part of presentation and also had display before and after the presentation.
I spoke to them and found them to be informative and extremely knowledgable about this area.
I have no link with this company, I just wanted to find out more about this whole area and it will be more so required with the revised building regs part L.
the company totally recommend a heat pump for new build scenarios, they reckon for every 1kw elec used that the heat pump will generate between 4/5 kw of heat. and potentially work out 5 times cheaper than an oil system and 3 times cheaper than a wood pellet system.
their web address is http://www.ecoheat.ie, i was speaking to Colm on thursday night and he was 100%
i will be contacting them with any queries i have in relation to this again.

DA-LAD

chris1970 wrote: »

i used galway energy systems for a geothermal vertical borehole nibe fighter 12kw ,under floor heating up, and down stairs, all plumbing-supplied, lots of stuff supplied at no extra cost- very good & professional, came it at about 28 k, very happy

Hey Chris,
What did this include and for what size house

chris1970

DA-LAD wrote: »

Hey Chris,
What did this include and for what size house

3 bed semi , 2100 sq ft approx, double ext. rear, ext on front,all under floor upstairs(heat track) and down stairs(plastic pipe, cant remember the name of it, inexpensive anyway), oversize rad in attic , 3 bathrooms includ saniflow down stairs, grol shower fittings, pressured water system in garage, toliet in garage also and wc, two 150 ltr water storage tanks, all manifolds , nibe heatpump, all plumbing inside incl garage everything except borehole and connection to main sewer , taps out side front and rear, great service good advice, will tell you up front what you need, tried to get advice from 3 others plumbers, wasted my time, he contacted groundsource for me got them organised for bole hole very prompt.

fealeit

Just to add a note here. I've just poured the foundation on my new build. I'm using Ashgrove in Kanturk for UFH on two floors, Nibe 1240 HP and installation. 23K for 3000sq ft. not inc grant. They were recommended and their work is very good.

Three generic things to check with any HP/UFH supplier:

Oxygen barrier pipe is a must. The single layer stuff is permeable albeit slowly and will degrade your HP.

Check the warranty from the supplier includes the HP, UFH and all workmanship ie, the complete system.

Make sure the HP is adequate. You shouldn't have to be using any additional water or space heating systems. A properly specced HP should supply all your needs.

AckwelFoley

There is a company called energy Master, they've been supplying renewables for a good few years now and ive sold their products while i was working in the Hardware store.

They got a good back up and tec support.

www.energymaster.ie

marmaj

we are in the process of planning so i'm doing as much research as I can at the moment. Does anyone have any experiences of geothermal positive or negative and also the underfloor heating?

ninjaBob

snyper wrote: »

There is a company called energy Master, they've been supplying renewables for a good few years now and ive sold their products while i was working in the Hardware store.

They got a good back up and tec support.

www.energymaster.ie

I didn't go with Energy Master because they couldn't get upto my area to do the job. That said I would recommend them as even after they counted themselves out of the job, they still called me to help me with doing calculations on heat pumps and to figure out the best system / company to go with. So that definately warrants a mention.

I'm still trying to select which company and product to go with.