RTÉ FTA petition

BHG

I have set up a petition online with regards to the FTA transmissions of RTÉ.

to read & sign; please pop over to http://www.petitiononline.com/rte2fta/petition.html

many thanks in advance. brian greene.

details http://www.rte2fta.com/
more details http://www.rte2fta.com/about/

newbie2

RTÉ is free to air on Sky etc. You pay for the 600 or so other channels.:D

watty

IMO this is pointless and completely ignores the realities of being a small English Speaking Country.

Only a FTV petition has any point.

Ulsterman 1690

completely ignores the realities of being a small English Speaking Country

What (yawn) does being an English Speaking Country have to do with it :rolleyes:

And what about TG4

Mossy Monk

BHG wrote:

I have set up a petition online with regards to the FTA transmissions of RTÉ.

to read & sign; please pop over to http://www.petitiononline.com/rte2fta/petition.html

many thanks in advance. brian greene.

details http://www.rte2fta.com/
more details http://www.rte2fta.com/about/

is op willing to pay extra to have the rights of imported programming cleared?

i doubt it somehow

cgarvey

Is there any details available about the deal Sky had with RTE, or how much RTE have to pay for transponder space / EPG placement / uplink transmission. I've some recollection that it was pretty much nothing in return for Sky getting to exclusively place the channels in a subscription service. Is that true? If so, did TV3 get a similar deal?

If not, then is EPG placement the only sweetener of the deal for RTE? Is thadt deal exclusive?

racso77

newbie2 wrote:

RTÉ is free to air on Sky etc. You pay for the 600 or so other channels.:D

You must have a different definition of free than me, when i take my sky card which i have to pay for from my digibox rte no longer works. Doesn't seem free to air to me?

fta keith

If you want RTEtv to be FTA on digital satellite the licence fee would have to be €500 per year as sports rights and overseas output cost a lot of money for outside of Ireland, just make sure the rte internation channel is free as its only homegrown made tv without the sports and overseas output etc

BHG

watty wrote:

IMO this is pointless and completely ignores the realities of being a small English Speaking Country.

Only a FTV petition has any point.

yes it is a big ask, yes it is about rights, and more my rights that those of hollywood. 158 euro licence fee and no 16:9 digital; a very cozy deal is been looked at here. article 21(2) reads well for this case. television without frontiers? in a world on PVR; timeshift & with a UK astra D footprint and 3 years of public service carriers in the UK moving FTA, It is time RTE ended the crypto and gave us FTA. FTV does not bring equality of access to public service, it sticks us to the hardware of Sky.

http://www.petitiononline.com/rte2fta/petition.html

zilog_jones

The only way I can see they'd be able to do this is to just not show a lot of their US shows and international sports events at all on their FTA service. They broadcast a lot of US shows earlier than the UK channels - I assume they're allowed to do this because of the relatively non-existant availability of RTÉ channels outside the country, and if they didn't have this advantage there'd be pretty much no point in watching these shows on RTÉ over the UK channels (which a lot of people have access to in this country).

If RTÉ went FTA as it is (assuming that's possible, which it isn't), people in the UK and elsewhere would find out that we're getting shows earlier than they are, so more would start tuning in, and the UK broadcasters would have a complete spa attack.

JHMEG

All I can say is fair play to the OP. May not work, but it's certainly worth a shot, and I have signed the petition.

newbie2

racso77 wrote:

You must have a different definition of free than me, when i take my sky card which i have to pay for from my digibox rte no longer works. Doesn't seem free to air to me?

^Your tv can still pick the signal up.

jaggiebunnet

newbie2 wrote:

^Your tv can still pick the signal up.

If you have an aerial the size of a small space station...

SRB

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

What (yawn) does being an English Speaking Country have to do with it :rolleyes:

And what about TG4

It's a lot more expensive to clear english language programme rights, that's why, for example, the German FTA channels which carry original soundtrack along with the German version via DTT or analogue, don't carry the original language on their sat services* ! TG4, in theory could do it easily enough if it only broadcast it's own programming and say replaced all the other output with text pages and RNG.

[*edit by Watty, I'm sure that's what you meant!]
[*edit by SRB, Indeed it was, ta !]

watty

cgarvey wrote:

Is there any details available about the deal Sky had with RTE, or how much RTE have to pay for transponder space / EPG placement / uplink transmission. I've some recollection that it was pretty much nothing in return for Sky getting to exclusively place the channels in a subscription service. Is that true? If so, did TV3 get a similar deal?

If not, then is EPG placement the only sweetener of the deal for RTE? Is thadt deal exclusive?

RTE do their own uplink (possibly TV3's too), inc TG4

In exchange they pay nothing and get free encryption (which costs almost nothing, but Sky would certainly charge RTE over £30M p.a. for it if RTE was FTV using Sky), free carriage (Sky pays rent to Astra for the transponder) free EPG.

Sky's only responsibility is to keep it encrypted and not sell it outside ROI. Sky later did some kind of deal for N.I. If RTE is getting no money for that ethier, then theyre nuts).

AFASIK Sky can put RTE in what ever pack they like.

RTE at the time sent me several emails that made clear they believe:
* Only people wanting multichannel pay TV have Satellite
* Satellite is just Cable TV without a cable
So from that point of view RTE are perfectly logical. They regard it as a good money saving deal for Irish Consumer. They don't take account of poor coverage of Irish TV in Ireland compared to UK in the UK nor cost of Sky Subscription.

The original deal was (a) Secret in content. (b) Seemed to involve plug getting pulled on Tara, just as it was starting to do good deals. (c) Expires in 2008

They didn't even consider non-Sky FTV card systems. I'd agree with them that a Sky FTV card system is not commercially feasible due to toothless regulation of Sky in UK. FTA was not and isn't feasible. Even a Sky FTV card would be much cheaper. (Sky will make sure it is )

markyboy

Does anyone want to put together a list of things we should ask our local politicians as they arrive in their droves over the next few months or is it even worth the bother raising it?

Tomk1

Basiclly they should digitalize RTE soon and Scramble it.
So if you want to watch then you pay tv licence with your sky sub.
so straight to RTE and recieve through a digital Rx.

The only thing I have looked at on RTE in the past few months is teletext.

I know this is of the subject but, if I removed the tv connector and blocked it totally up.
There fore I could only use the AV input.

Would that be classed as a monitor,.. therefore no longer requiring a tv licencee.

rgds, tk

Lennoxschips

There should be an RTE FTV service and a legal videoguard CAM (how Sky are still getting away with this dodgybox setup is beyond me). The deal RTE signed with Sky was incredibly stupid. We'll see what happens when the Sky-RTE contract runs out.

As for FTA, if the rights are a problem then all the home-grown programming could be FTA, with the FTV encryption kicking in for programmes with rights issues. News, Late Late Show etc. have no rights reasons not to be FTA.

This is something for the European Commission to sort out, as I can't see the Dail moving on it anytime soon.

Capt'n Midnight

Mossy Monk wrote:

is op willing to pay extra to have the rights of imported programming cleared?

i doubt it somehow

or willing to have a blank screen when foreign imports or certain sports events are shown

you could fit RTE1 and 2 on one channel if you dropped the stuff you can't show and still have tons of room for mobile phone, qvc and chat line ads.

Mossy Monk

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

you could fit RTE1 and 2 on one channel if you dropped the stuff you can't show

this is what RTÉ will be doing in a few months

byte

I don't think it's possible that RTE could ever afford the prices Sky/NDS would ask for RTE to be FTV using Videoguard.

They could use a different encryption system that is cheaper (Viaccess, Seca, etc), though that'd mean people would have to buy different set top boxes to watch. It's possibly the only way could do it though. They wouldn't be the first broadcaster to use two different encryption systems.

It will be interesting to see how RTE International channel develops and whether it'll be FTA on satellite or not.

watty

Tomk1 wrote:

Basiclly they should digitalize RTE soon and Scramble it.
So if you want to watch then you pay tv licence with your sky sub.
so straight to RTE and recieve through a digital Rx.

The only thing I have looked at on RTE in the past few months is teletext.

I know this is of the subject but, if I removed the tv connector and blocked it totally up.
There fore I could only use the AV input.

Would that be classed as a monitor,.. therefore no longer requiring a tv licencee.

rgds, tk

Any kind of receiver connected to any kind of screen needs a TV reception licence.

Only a DVD only + monitor with no tuners, satellite boxes, PC tuner card etc doesn't need a TV licence.

You need a separate licence to play ANYTHING publically.

BHG

watty wrote:

They regard it as a good money saving deal for Irish Consumer.

RTÉ is a public service broadcaster in a republic, enacted by legislation, where does "Consumer" come into it. We are citizens with rights & constitution not subjects with charters & Sky bills.

Watty I have great respect for your knowledge on this subject, tell us more. As this debate is not about explaining the real meaning of FTA v FTV etc. lets explore FTA.

BBC is FTA, ITV is FTA. Film 4 is FTA. now rights (mine before hollywood) but taking sport and films... if RTE does not have the rights to show it, don't show it. but bbc itv etc. are beaming down on us 24/7 on the Astra 2D footprint.. does this hurt RTE? vice versa RTE in the UK FTA on Astra 2D same applies.

so down to the usual 'Fav USA Show' on RTE before C4 etc. well sync the shows or TX after the UK, this should make a HUGE saving in cost of buying in the imported drama to the licence payer as its now second hand in the region/market. So no one will watch it I hear you say, boo hoo, no one sponsored ER on RTE1 on Sundays in 2005-2006 season and it held its slot.... sport...

setanta not 'RTE in the UK' is the bigger issue for sport. RTE racing available in the UK, wow what a wonderful spin off opportunity for RTE, btw 252LW should have way more opt out racing on the radio (is anybody listening).

'Television without frontiers or bunny's ears'

the guys in bubble hits are FTA, from Co. Meath Ireland.... not regulated in ireland. when this station has awards nights or big concerts, its irish TV FTA from Land's End to John o'Groats and from camberwick green to craggy island FTA all the way.

so I take it RTE wont be interested in the petition? even if they need to reconsider extending the contract which ends 2008?

more worrying is the RTE International kite. Having a filleted RTE as PPV subscription or FTV in the UK would not assist RTE making the programmes FTA to the Irish public on the same Sat. RTE International must also be FTA.

I think we need to rise above the 'it will never happen attitude' many believed that Greg Dyke in the BBC and his FTA efforts would not happen, especially when they were delayed & delayed..... the public service switch to FTA is on,,, FTA aids digital adoption, on-digitals failure in Pay DTT opened the door to BBC Crown and Sky to offer Freeview and an FTA DTT product, growing faster than Sky! so once the FTA genie was out of the bottle, DTH Sat DVB needed to be equal to Freeview for the BBC, as thats the UN Declaration on Human Rights 21(2) 'equal access .. to public service'. Others with public service remit had to follow, ITV did. We're just lagging behind as we always do, yes there are differences, but they are not insurmountable.

An FOI request for the sky/rte deal is possible? or has this been done before.

a go on, sign on

http://www.petitiononline.com/rte2fta/petition.html

cgarvey

Brian,

Would be interesting to try the FoI alright. 1 point though, if RTE go FTV, then:

+ They'll lose the Sky subsidy (the transponder space mainly, which I'm sure isn't cheap).
+ They'll lose the EPG placement, or pay a hefty fee to remain at 101/2. Perhaps a smaller fee for a higher number? Either way, I can't see Sky going out of their way to carry them on the EPG without a significant fee.
+ They'll also lose the "See it first on RTE" seller for USA shows. That's a significant revenue stream.

In an ideal world, RTE wouldn't have such a reliance on US programming, and have a lot more home grown (and they can do a lot of home grown programming quite well), and be available FTA. So, the question, then, is are we willing to foot the bill?

I'm not, because I don't think it'd be worth it to serve the small (but growing) FTA audience in Ireland. The vast majority of satellite TV viewers here have Sky subscriptions of some sort. I wouldn't mind a small increase for some sort of compromise deal after 2008 (FTV with a freeview card or something.. I don't know).

My €0.02

JHMEG

I think it was Ma Harney that was talking a few years ago about making RTE2 a commercial entity, with no public service obligations, and selling it off. All public service stuff would be transferred to RTE1 which would be kept in state ownership.

Pity she didn't follow through, as it would be quite easy to transmit the remodelled RTE1 FTA on satellite.

Lets not forget who runs RTE, and what their motives are. It is run firstly and foremostly for the benefit of the employees.

I would see Ma's way as being the only way to shove RTE forward in a cost effective way, and without rights issues: Break it up and then via legislation, force it into the 21st century.

watty

Nowadays the EPG (which costs Sky nothing) is a serious proportion of the cost. FTV encryption costs MORE than the transponder space... They'd get a better deal on transponder renting the whole transponder and sub letting any extra space to Sky. At one stage the entire content was Irish apart from DWTV.

UK Broadcasters because of relative size virtually get Irish rights chucked in free. It would make RTE procurement staggeringly more expensive to have UK rights.


The BBC encryption was always temporay. S4C~digitol was used as prototype. If you read speechs from before BBC was even on Sky, you will see they never intended to remain encrypted (=controlled by Sky).

BBC are against even terrestrial viewing card connected to Licence fee payment. They regard that as abusing human rights and potentially giving Government too much control.

The UK is a different situation to here. Also even before satellite, BBC1 & UTV available in almost 80% of Irish households. RTE got upset when BBC went FTA over nothing, because even before that BBC1 had greater coverage than TV3 before TV3 was on satellite. Probably similar coverage without Satellite to TV3! (including Deflectors, MMDS and Cable).

When it comes to Sports or Hollywood etc the rights holders to not want an EU. They want to divide and sell the the same thing as many times as possible. Not once to a European equivalent of a USA coast to cost network.

Maybe we should be like Wales. We should all learn Irish (I'm too old to start and never did any at school, being in the wrong kind of schoool) and get Irish dubbed versions of everything then we can be FTA like Germany, Italy, Croatia, Hungary etc.

Actually lots of national broadcasters in Europe are NOT FTA (Sweden, Netherlands, Spain, Switzerland, Finland etc ) but have either a cheap basic package (100 to 200 Euro a year) or a FTV card scheme at UK pricing.

The problem here is that with out combined EU/UK/IRL legislation and regulation of Sky, they are effectively a Satellite monopoly here and have priced either a basic pack of terrestrial non-Pay TV or a FTV card out of reach. This does not at all reflect Sky's true costs.

easkey

As I have said before we in Ireland should all complain to Comreg over the price
to us to receive Digital reception of a station we have paid a licence for and
not have too pay Sky a second Licence fee of E29/MONTH.
BBC & ITV are FTA Copyrights are for UK but there spill over allows us to get
a signal.
RTE would also have a spillover allowing them to get RTE and like BBC
it is a default not a copyright problem.
Germany, France, Spain all have there signals go into countries that have the same language as there own where is the copyright.
I have sent e-mails to Comreg which I have put up here more people should
do the same..
Why not start a full Petition from this Club and sent it to Comreg.
Would you put your name to it??

cgarvey

OK so EPG placement and transponder space cost money. If RTE drop the exclusive aspect of the Sky deal, I think we can all accept that they'll need to spend more money on satellite distribution. Are we willing to spend more for this?

(The rights issue is only for sport and imported content. RTE would get content cheaper because it's Ireland only.. don't think any distributer would take the argument that it's only a bit of spill over for the millions of UK receivers!)

watty

It could insanely cost more than a minimum Sky sub!

Capt'n Midnight

All we need is our own antenna on a satellite, with the horn shaped for coverage on the island. But even then we'd have to pay 25% more to cover the North, or use a shaped one but that would exclude Donegal.

BHG

perhaps it will cost lots more money,
this issue is not about how much it will cost its about the digital divide, the analog switch off and the equal access to service. RTE have enshrined some of these issues within how it sees itself progressing. In the future people may look back on this period and not think, did'nt rte get it real cheap for so long (and we know why) but people may say, what else could RTE have done with political football being played with adsl & DTT.

the times are changing, RTE International is on its way and the 2008 contract end is looming, DTT is nearing... permanent revolution

while I do not like the ideas of Dish Tax, neither do bird operators. If the govt. had back bone we wouldn't be here in this situation. sat tv is unregulated and under taxed in this country, and mighty powerful because RTE is not FTA. a deal on FTA EPG slots is a lot less scary than dish tax. may i stress I do not support dish tax or bin charges or water rates, but mention of it as a wake up call is ok.

when I point out that its unregulated and some here support total deregulation, when the BCI(?) regulate the amount of adverts per hour or advertising to kids, and versions of uk channels have 'eire' advert opt outs, then regulation is a joke. scrap regulation or regulate along the lines of 'television without frontiers' a be done with it.

so stop asking will op 'bhg' pay for it, or licence payer pay for it, and ask is it wrong, unequal and discounted beyond belief to the benefit of the discounter to the tune of billions.

--
http://www.petitiononline.com/rte2fta/petition.html

easkey

Yes - This is what we need, more people to put it up to RTE & Irish Gov.
Hope more people sign it :rolleyes:

Mossy Monk

BHG wrote:

perhaps it will cost lots more money,
this issue is not about how much it will cost its about the digital divide, the analog switch off and the equal access to service. RTE have enshrined some of these issues within how it sees itself progressing. In the future people may look back on this period and not think, did'nt rte get it real cheap for so long (and we know why) but people may say, what else could RTE have done with political football being played with adsl & DTT.

the times are changing, RTE International is on its way and the 2008 contract end is looming, DTT is nearing... permanent revolution

while I do not like the ideas of Dish Tax, neither do bird operators. If the govt. had back bone we wouldn't be here in this situation. sat tv is unregulated and under taxed in this country, and mighty powerful because RTE is not FTA. a deal on FTA EPG slots is a lot less scary than dish tax. may i stress I do not support dish tax or bin charges or water rates, but mention of it as a wake up call is ok.

when I point out that its unregulated and some here support total deregulation, when the BCI(?) regulate the amount of adverts per hour or advertising to kids, and versions of uk channels have 'eire' advert opt outs, then regulation is a joke. scrap regulation or regulate along the lines of 'television without frontiers' a be done with it.

so stop asking will op 'bhg' pay for it, or licence payer pay for it, and ask is it wrong, unequal and discounted beyond belief to the benefit of the discounter to the tune of billions.

--
http://www.petitiononline.com/rte2fta/petition.html

wow BHG. do you do much in the line of public speaking. it is almost as if you are trying to sell something
online petitions mean **** all in the real world buddy

Zaphod

If RTÉ were to start a FTV scheme in 2008 using a non-Videoguard system, it's quite possible that Sky would play hard ball with EPG position etc. One approach would be for RTÉ to tell Sky to go f**k themselves and let them deal with customer fallout.

It's amazing that the likes of the BBC have to pay Sky for EPG position when the availability of BBC makes Sky a much more attractive product for consumers. It's especially true of BBC HD and SkyHD.

lucernarian

My understanding is that Mossy Monk/Capt'n Midnight's suggestion will be bang on the money. I think there will be a FTA RTÉ channel on satellite as soon as Jan 2008, but the channel being broadcast might be severely curtailed at first as it would only broadcast RTÉ-owned programming.

I'm not sure on the accuracy of what I've heard, but RTÉ was apparently not permitted to broadcast any services outside Ireland, due to its remit in the original broadcasting act. The amendment looks set to be passed in April and I think we will see some interesting developments take place.

Why would RTÉ care where they are placed on the EPG?? As a matter of fact, is there anything which RTÉ owes Sky? RTÉ is already broadcast to the people who are currently meant to receive it, the license payers (barring the odd reception issue in scattered areas.

Mossy Monk

To_be_confirmed wrote:

but the channel being broadcast might be severely curtailed at first as it would only broadcast RTÉ-owned programming

this channel will broadcast programming made by or commissioned by RTÉ and TG4

Blaster99

What will that channel broadcast the remaining 90% of the day?

BHG

Mossy Monk wrote:

wow BHG. do you do much in the line of public speaking. it is almost as if you are trying to sell something
online petitions mean **** all in the real world buddy

as a matter of fact i do. and I podcast as well and I also broadcast. and am very active politically. but that aside. I do not expect the petition to venture near 'real world' as you call it.

everyone here seems to agree BIG changes are on the way, so before d-day, with a little effort we can steer it in a direction that is possible and desirable. I have heard it all before, don't bother fighting, it'll never change. my morale is good, optimism high & perspectives are clear and well founded. Do the knockers want it to fail or do they just have a better read of it than me.?

I have total respect for the senior posters (and all posters) here, and their knowledge of this subject area.I don't think a plebiscite would do it either, campaigns take on a life form of their own, agitate educate organise, its early days.

and the public gets what the public wants.
--
http://www.petitiononline.com/rte2fta/petition.html

Ulsterman 1690

Why do RTE have to buy transponder space of Sky. The transponders in question are on the ASTRA satellite which belongs to SES. Where do Sky come into it.

Transponders capacity is dirt cheap nowadays. Even in the days of analouge a satellite transponder was far cheaper than a national terrestrial network. Now that multiple channels can fit on one transponder it costs damn all (which is how all those shopping/gaming/FTA softporn/Text/dating channels are viable)

fta keith

RTE1, rte2, tg4, tv3 will never be fta on digital satellite there is more chance of peace in the world than the normal terrestrial Irish tv channels being fta on digital satellite, make the petition to make RTE international channel be fta on digital satellite with just the home made programmes

zilog_jones

I'd be happy to see an FTA channel with just RTÉ/TG4 content, and I'm sure a lot of people in the UK and elsewhere would be happy to see it too. Besides that, I'd be more interested in them (and whoever's operating the shceme) getting their arse in gear with national DTT - a much more viable option for broadcasting the current channels in their entirity.

lucernarian

My apoligies Mossy Monk, you are right there. TG4's own material would also be broadcast.

lawhec

I reckon different scenarios need to be looked at here...

* If the current deal with Sky was "broken", RTÉ would have to make thier own payments on uplinking. Depending on the situation, they might be able to use Eurobird rather than Astra, reportedly transponder costs with Eutelsat is cheaper than SES.

* It is possible to use two encryption system alongside one another on the same signal, several countries already do this e.g. Austria

* I'm not sure what EPG charges RTÉ would be hit with but I would assume it would be a flat-fee similar to that in the UK.

(A) A completely FTA RTÉ in its current state e.g. BBC, ITV, ARD - hugely unlikely to happen anytime in the future.

(B) One Channel FTA, One channel FTV e.g. ORF - possible but logically could be tricky. Any programmes with rights issues could be transferred to RTÉ2, RTÉ1 can go FTA with programmes with no rights issues

(C) Simulcasting of programmes with rights issues using FTA e.g. North America - used between USA and Canada to protect viewing figures. An example would be RTÉ and ITV broadcasting Coronation Street at the same time. Is possible, though Irish stations would lose ground on UK broadcasters on certain programmes. May not tie up all programme rights.

(D) FTV Videoguard system e.g. Old BBC, ITV - possible to implement but encryption costs and EPG then in hands of RTÉ finances & decryption still restricted to Sky equiptment.

(E) Dual Encrypt FTV - uses another encryption system alongside Videoguard, only one needed to view. Would cover non-Sky receivers but would have higher costs than (D).

(F) Special satellite only channel - looks that will happen but does nothing to help viewers looking for a reception option with poor terrestial & no cable.

Zaphod

Variation on B - Broadcast channels exactly as they are FTA but black out any programs which have rights problem - the RAI approach.

Variation on E - continue current agreement with Sky (i.e. only available on subscription while Sky waive costs of EPG, encryption etc) and dual broadcast using alternate encryption. Ideally not from an Astra 2D TP so as to be available to expats in Europe and acts as an extra source of (unofficial) income - the Irish Sweepstakes approach.

watty

E is a good option. BBC America, BBC Prime etc are slightly like E