Some Info Required

Awesome

Hi folks new to here but have been reading the forum for a few months now. Can anyone give me some info on the following:

My license states that I am authorised to "posses, use and carry" my firearm(s) does this mean you can walk around with your 9mm tucked into a shoulder holster (I don't think so) so when can you legally posses, use and carry it then.

Also, say a friend of mine has a few acres of land attached to his house in a residential area, can we set up those steel targets that they sell on shoot.ie
and fire away

Cheers.

civdef

Can open, worms everywhere.

The original act is vaguely worded, but there is another offence of carrying a firearm for an unlawful purpose, which applies equally to licenced and unlicenced firearms.

The new firearms act allows for conditions on the licence as to how / where the firearm is possessed.

Sparks

There's also the 1990 Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, which says you can't carry an offensive weapon in a public place without good cause, and which is sufficiently loose in definition to let a Garda arrest you under the act if you carried the firearm in public, regardless of your motives.

As to the steel targets, we'd need to know more. Is there a backstop? Would it be safe to shoot there and I don't mean "erra, it'll be grand", I mean would it be ruled safe by an expert? If so, then maybe yes, for the next few weeks until the Firearms Act portions remaining in the CJA are commenced at which point you'll need to be a licenced range to do target shooting or face jail time and fines.

Oh, and even if you use it as a range, expect things to get interesting within a few hours of the first shot as the neighbours find out what you're doing and have a panic attack and ring 999.

Awesome

Thanks for the info lads, yeah my thoughts exactly. My questions were purely hypothetical however Sparks I know you mentioned about backstops etc.. but whats the differece in getting permission to shoot in open land where there is no back stop and you have no control over what is beyond what you are aiming at. Surely in my hypothetical case if its your own private land and therefore implied permission to shoot on it whats the problem assuming you had created a sufficient backstop and took the obvious safety precautions. If neighbour sees/hears gunshots and rings Police they show up you show them your cert, point finger at words posses, use and carry and say goodbye. Also go down to wexford any Sunday and you'll see guys walking around the back roads with rifles and shotguns in hand apparently hunting.

Sparks

Awesome wrote:

whats the differece in getting permission to shoot in open land where there is no back stop and you have no control over what is beyond what you are aiming at.

That would apply to hunting, and you're talking about target shooting. Lot more rounds used in target shooting for a start. There are legal differences as well, of course.

Surely in my hypothetical case if its your own private land and therefore implied permission to shoot on it whats the problem assuming you had created a sufficient backstop and took the obvious safety precautions.

For the next few weeks, none - assuming the local super has no objections.
After that, when the rest of the Firearms Act 2006 is commenced, again, no problem - provided you register the range, get it approved and get it licenced by the Gardai.

[qutoe]If neighbour sees/hears gunshots and rings Police they show up you show them your cert, point finger at words posses, use and carry and say goodbye.[/quote]
Good luck with that. Get a solicitor on retainer first though, it'll save you some hassle.

Also go down to wexford any Sunday and you'll see guys walking around the back roads with rifles and shotguns in hand apparently hunting.

The 1990 offensive weapons act requires a good reason to carry a gun in public - hunting is it. The firearms act also says that if they fire in a reckless or dangerous fashion, they'll be punished for it.

Awesome

All very true Sparks. I think the key word here is of course interpretation. I mean if our guy in Wexford was wearing a balaclava he'd probably be shot first and questioned later!!

Umiq88

Shooting in a residential area even if you have permission and its safe is still not a good idea you'll draw alot of attention to yourself.

Kramer

psittacosis wrote:

Shooting in a residential area even if you have permission and its safe is still not a good idea you'll draw alot of attention to yourself.

Suppressed .22lr with subs (not that I condone or recommend such a practice ).

Awesome

Of course if you have the time, space and money you could just build a very long garage, sound proof the hell out of it and use that. Obviously for your own personal and private use and not some sort of club or range for others to use.

With regards to drawing attention to yourself - depends because your talking a couple of acres on both sides being land that you own, you also own the three closest houses to you so you can't be overlooked unless in a helicopter and as for noise well I hear shotgun fire all the time and I don't run around panicking. My general point being that if you have the land and the firearms you should be allowed to utilise them without having to pay the huge club fees for the privilege. Bear in mind that you only need to show evidence of being in a club when appying for the license and not for any subsequent renewals.

Sparks

Obviously for your own personal and private use and not some sort of club or range for others to use.

Nope. If you do that, it's a range and even if noone else is allowed shoot there, you'll have to have it inspected and licensed, and firearms range inspectors can inspect it at any time without warning or permission. Firearms Act 2006, section 4A, it's quite a piece of work...

Bear in mind that you only need to show evidence of being in a club when appying for the license and not for any subsequent renewals.

First off, damn few clubs would tolerate that. Expect letters to your super saying "this chap joined, got his licence, and we've not seen him since, and he is no longer a part of our club", and don't go thinking that that's some sort of underhanded behaviour, because you've basicly just used them and if something goes sideways, you've left them exposed to liability.

Secondly, your licence can be revoked at any time, and any renewal refused, if you aren't in a club, thanks to Section 4(2)(e) of the Firearms Act along with Section 5(1)(e).

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=Sparks]Nope. If you do that, it's a range and even if noone else is allowed shoot there, you'll have to have it inspected and licensed, and firearms range inspectors can inspect it at any time without warning or permission.

All very well and good.BUT how is this going to be enforced?How many range inspectors will there be?1 per county?Per province?What will their qualifications be to approve a range,apart from being a beuracrat who was lumped with ajob
And I can see a very busy govt dept inspecting and authorising "ranges" on every farm where somone has a22 rifle[IE the side of the silage clamp].So what do we so in the meantime?All Sunday afternooon plinking at tin cans in the local quarry stops???I think we can answer that with two chances.

The most important aspect of law is the ability to enforce it.Which as we can see this country lacks on a daily basis on more weighter issues than this.

It sounds very good on paper or statue books,but takes forever to be activated and enforced on a daily basis.No doubt the established ranges will be inspected,but wether the range inspector will be down to bother farmer Macgillycuddy in Rathnafeck because he was popping tin cans down in his silage clamp within days of enactment is not realistic at all.Continue as normal folks.

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

BUT how is this going to be enforced?

By waiting for the first person to be caught breaking it (probably by being reported by the neighbours) and then crucifying them in public.
Want to be the first one to have the book thrown at you? I don't particularly, I figure if you want to throw away tens of thousands of euro on lawyer fees, then you would be better off not going to court and donating the money to your local club to pay for equipment and coaching and the like.

What will their qualifications be to approve a range,apart from being a beuracrat who was lumped with ajob

They don't need qualifications according to the law. Like I said, the new Firearms Act is a piece of work...

And I can see a very busy govt dept inspecting and authorising "ranges" on every farm where somone has a22 rifle[IE the side of the silage clamp]

I can't. I can see them inspecting and failing such spots.

The most important aspect of law is the ability to enforce it.Which as we can see this country lacks on a daily basis on more weighter issues than this.

And, as we see in this country on a daily basis, the law gets strictly enforced in the lesser cases, like ours. Big cases, it takes resources. Little ones, it's a five minute phone call. You know the saying about how if you have a small loan the bank owns you, and if you have a large one, you own the bank? Same deal.

Continue as normal folks.

Yeah, I mean, if you're caught the maximum fine is only €20,000 and the maximum jail sentence is only seven years, and it only applies to every single person on the range when you're caught, and they'll really only be looking to crucify the first couple of people they catch, so how bad could it be? :rolleyes:

maglite

would caring a pistol 24/7 be secure????


now there's a big pile of worms

civdef

It'd also be very, very dumb.

Space cadet behaviour like that would make all shooters look like walter-mitty dumbassess.

maglite

yes agreed
but is it secure?

not condoning it and i dont have one

Sparks

No, it wouldn't be secure maglite, and it'd be breaking the Firearms and Offensive weapons act 1990.

Awesome

All very valid points lads but if you have the money to construct a comfortable indoor range for your own private use which may appear to be a garage and no one knows about it then how will the law be enforced. Ok so you might eventually get found out if living in a residential area but what about all those isolated farms or large private estates in the middle of nowhere. Also with regards to "using" your club well don't get me wrong I enjoy the club, meeting the members and the whole social aspect that goes with it but don't forget I'll decide as to how and when I want to use it. So until they bring in mandatory range hours I'll suit myself. Ok so you get reported for not showing up well thanks Mr. Club and hello Mister Garda here's my land permission for 200 acres with shooting rights from Mr. X which I intend to hunt using my rifle and shotgun. You will lose the pistols but hey they'll probably all be banned again by next year anyway.

Awesome

PS sorry for the double posts - I keep getting logged out when I go to post and when I log back in it resends the post!!!

Sparks

Awesome wrote:

All very valid points lads but if you have the money to construct a comfortable indoor range for your own private use which may appear to be a garage and no one knows about it then how will the law be enforced.

Yeesh.
By that logic, why work? Just rob a bank. If noone finds out, you're laughing...
Seriously, how long do you think there'd be between one person being caught doing this and all the rest of us getting put out as the Gardai inspect all the ranges on their list? You'd become a bit of a pariah in the sport for bringing that much fuss down on it, not to mention what a bored newspaper editor could do with it.

Also with regards to "using" your club well don't get me wrong I enjoy the club, meeting the members and the whole social aspect that goes with it but don't forget I'll decide as to how and when I want to use it.

No, you won't. It's not your sole property, and you're exposing other people to liability so a bit of cop on is called for, and if it's not forthcoming, the club would be well within it's rights and within reasonable behaviour to point out to your super that you no longer meet the conditions your cert was granted under.

I mean, what does it take? Didn't anyone read the CJA? Didn't anyone figure out how to read between the lines? There is no slack anymore, and this sort of ****e will just get us - all of us, not just the gombeen who chances his arm and gets caught doing it - in hot water. Pistols gone by next year? Bloody right, if this sort of daftness happens!

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=Sparks]By waiting for the first person to be caught breaking it (probably by being reported by the neighbours) and then crucifying them in public.
Want to be the first one to have the book thrown at you? I don't particularly, I figure if you want to throw away tens of thousands of euro on lawyer fees, then you would be better off not going to court and donating the money to your local club to pay for equipment and coaching and the like.

I'll take my chances Sparks,and actually on the day of it being becoming law I will have a major shoot on my unapproved range and anyone who knows me can go off and report it.If they dare.
Not going to be cowed by some diktat from Dublin.Until somone shows up waving a badge or whatever ,then I'll see what they have to say for themselves on this matter.
Plus tens of thousands will buy diddley squat on a range these days.Seen the price of land ?.Yeah really worried about the black suited balaclavaed SWAT type range inspectors rolling up in their armourd trucks,HKs a ready to go to check for unapproved ranges. Waco springs to mind.:rolleyes:

They don't need qualifications according to the law. Like I said, the new Firearms Act is a piece of work...

GREAT!!! How and where do we apply???Maybe somone knowing somthing in this case might get things done properly

I can't. I can see them inspecting and failing such spots

.
When they get around to actually finding them,between the usual office hours,overtime discussions,etcetc.As I said and the history of recent history bears this out.Great on paper,totally different in reality.PSA being a good example.Grand prosecutions sofar of security companies failing the act TWO!!!! Pretty much got a slap on the wrist as well,and are still trading.Unliscensed security companies out there...your guess is as good as mine.Training for bouncers...sign up and PAY up and forego all the training mate.It is just as much a farce as this will be

And, as we see in this country on a daily basis, the law gets strictly enforced in the lesser cases, like ours. Big cases, it takes resources. Little ones, it's a five minute phone call. You know the saying about how if you have a small loan the bank owns you, and if you have a large one, you own the bank? Same deal.

Well,this will be a pretty BIG one if and when this is ever brought to court.
Lets see ;starting with tresspass,breaking and entering by a agency that DOES NOT have the state law of use of force behind it[IE the Gardai or Customs,and even they need warrents.] Should be a major case on civil liberties here cest ne pas?Hope they pick their target well.

Yeah, I mean, if you're caught the maximum fine is only €20,000 and the maximum jail sentence is only seven years, and it only applies to every single person on the range when you're caught, and they'll really only be looking to crucify the first couple of people they catch, so how bad could it be? :rolleyes:

OPERATIVE WORD Maximum...RARELY enforced.

Kramer

So, you're not a member of a target shooting club, just hunt rabbits/foxes with your rifle(s). Firearms cert granted on basis of "hunting with land permissions".

You get a new scope/change ammo or just want to check zero before firing at live game. Very necessary in the interests of the humane dispatch of game etc.

Options:

a) You've got to drive maybe 50/60/100 miles to a range (during their usually very restricted opening hours), pay the range fees & sort out your zero. Then drive home the same 50/60/100 miles, happy in the knowledge that you've "done the right thing" .

b) Head down your own field/field on which you have permission, good backstop, perfectly safe etc., throw up a target & sort out your zero.

Option a isn't going to happen very often - inconvienent/expensive etc.

Option b will soon be illegal & carry hefty penalties up to & including imprisonment.

Farsical situation again if you ask me!

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

I'll take my chances Sparks

But you won't be, will you CG? You'll be taking my chances as well, and those of everyone else who runs a firing range in the country, and everyone else who depends on them to shoot in.

,and actually on the day of it being becoming law I will have a major shoot on my unapproved range and anyone who knows me can go off and report it.If they dare.

Wow. Yeah, go ask around for what happened the last time someone tried that approach to things, would you?

Not going to be cowed by some diktat from Dublin.

Oh for feck's sake. Would you rather obey the law or have the ERU tap your door at 4 in the morning?

GREAT!!! How and where do we apply???Maybe somone knowing somthing in this case might get things done properly

Applications to the Minister for now, to be replied to with "we haven't appointed the chief inspector yet", and when they do, apply to him.

When they get around to actually finding them,between the usual office hours,overtime discussions,etcetc.

Maybe you should ask the clay pigeon lads about how the Gardai enforced the no-under-16s rule last time and just how real this all is?

Well,this will be a pretty BIG one if and when this is ever brought to court.
Lets see ;starting with tresspass,breaking and entering by a agency that DOES NOT have the state law of use of force behind it[IE the Gardai or Customs,and even they need warrents.]

First off, they have full legal authority to enter your range or any place they think is a range. You have no legal authority to refuse or resist entry. Also, on any licenced range, it will be a crime to refuse or resist entry by the Gardai. And that's without warrants being needed. That's the law CG, argue it away if you have a few million to pay a barrister (and if you do, why aren't you building ranges and making charitible donations to clubs? Is it shooting you like or tilting at windmills?)

And the Gardai and Customs don't need warrants in a lot of cases, just so you know.

Should be a major case on civil liberties here cest ne pas?Hope they pick their target well.

YEah, right. And if you refuse entry to a TV licence inspector or a garda or a member of the customs office, nothing will happen :rolleyes:

CG, seriously, why do you think I and the others were so incensed when we read the CJB the first time? Do you really think none of this will ever come down on us? Shy of the Minister being ousted and his successor becoming the first Minister to relax gun laws in the history of the state, we are going to have to follow these rules. No two ways about it. And if you don't, you're one person and they're the entire state. And I don't know about you, but that's a fight that to me represents an incredible waste of resources and time and energy. I'd rather be coaching or training or competing than being raided at 0400 by the ERU and their mates thanks, I don't get off on "fighting the man"...

Sparks

Kramer wrote:

Farsical situation again if you ask me!

Yup, and we raised it at the time the CJB debates were going on - read the CJB thread in this forum. Thing was, the Minister was pushing for just the situation you're talking about.