UTV DSL Modem not supported by Vista

redspider

Hi,

I tried to use a computer with MS Windows Vista on it but the DSL Zyxel modem that is a part of UTV's Clicksilver service doesnt have a Vista driver, nor wont:

Zyxel: "Currently there are no Vista drivers for the P-630. In the future this
modem is likely to be replaced with a different model that will be Vista
compatible. We apologize for any inconveniences."

UTV: "We no longer supply Zyxel modems. We can supply you with a new modem if you wish, however you will be charged for this. Your modem was working fine until the upgrade to Vista and we can not be held responsible for new Operting System incompatibilites from third party software."

Surely it is incumbent upon UTV to provide a suitable modem so that a customer can obtain the service that they are paying for?!?! Note that the original modem is in the ownership of UTV. A replacement would cost Euro 59.99 + 9.50 p&p

It sounds to me like UTV have been 'screwed' by Zyxel and now UTV want to pass on that 'pain' to Customers?

Note that Customers were not warned about any potential need to buy a new modem if they were thinking about upgrading their computer to Vista.

What does IrelandOffline think about this as it is likely to affect many thousands of customers as they upgrade to Vista in time?

Redspider

watty

If you use Ethernet, rather than USB, no broadband modem will need a driver for ANY OS. Assuming you have a Network Interface & driver for it

Using USB has never been a good idea for Networking. Does the ZyXel not have an Ethernet port?

If using Ethernet (100baseT , 10baseT) or WiFi, you should NEVER install a "modem driver".

Mountjoy Mugger

I think it's encumbent on every user to check their applications/hardware are compatible with new OSes before they spend the money.

Urban Weigl

With all due respect, and while I appreciate that this is a problem for you, I do not see how this is an IrelandOffline issue.

You will have to buy a new modem. It's not like UTV has any control over either Zyxel (who make good products, by the way), nor do they have any control over Windows Vista.

Urban Weigl

And there is no requirement on UTV in any way to replace the modem. You bought a service that was stated compatible with Windows XP and Mac OS X. Now you are using a different operating sytem. It's not their fault in any way.

And I'm saying that as someone who has had similar problems with old scanners and printers. Should Epson send you a new printer because they won't update the drivers for the latest version of Windows or Mac OS? No. It's a pain, of course, but they still won't send you a new printer. You just have to bite the bullet and appreciate that your decision to use the latest version of your favourite operating system will sometimes render old software (and by extension hardware) useless. It doesn't happen often, but it can happen. You cannot blame Microsoft, Zyxel or UTV for that.

redspider

Thanks for those responses.

There is no ethernet port on the modem. This was standard issue UTV gear at the time, 2003, and USB was the only way to connect.

This problem could be simply solved if Zyxel got off their you-know-whats and spent the money/allcated people to write the drivers for Vista. Of course, if MS would have created a backward compatible OS in the first place, it probably would work fine. ie: the same driver works on ME, 98SE, XP, etc, 2K, etc. Zxel could easily write the new driver but prefer to sell new kit and they aren't the only company using Vista as an excuse for this.

I can understand that UTV are stuck as the problem is not of their own making, but their equipment is supplied as part of a service which started in 2003 and that should not be End-Of-Life in 2007 - that is unreasonable and is unfit for purpose in terms of Consumer Rights in my opinion and probably that of many solicitors.

For me its an IrelandOffLine issue in the sense of ensuring that Consumers do not get ripped off by poor practices carried out by the Broadband providers and that this issue is one that affects many. Exactly how many, I dont know. But there are probably people buying new modems from UTV to 'fix' this problem as we write this.

Note that overall I am not demanding a new modem. All I'm looking for is a modem that supports a new operating system which will have an increasingly widespread installed base in due course. If UTV cant get the new driver from Zyxel (or get one written somewhere?), they should be obligated to solve it another way.

Redspider

Cabaal

redspider wrote:

Note that Customers were not warned about any potential need to buy a new modem if they were thinking about upgrading their computer to Vista.

This is true, but did you check with UTV before upgrading?

There's no point in UTV sending e-mails or letters out to its customers advising that they'll need to change modems if they use Vista as ALOT of people won't even go near Vista for some time, so by sending out such communications UTV would just end up generating alot of un-needed calls to its support lines.

As somebody here has already said, its upto the customer to check compatibility....for example did you run the Microsoft compatibility tool before upgrading?

What does IrelandOffline think about this as it is likely to affect many thousands of customers as they upgrade to Vista in time?

Redspider

Its not the ISP's fault, they don't make the drivers and they can't force the vendors to make them any faster.

In fairness ethernet is the way to go and this is nothing to do with Irelandoffline imho

Cabaal

redspider wrote:

I can understand that UTV are stuck as the problem is not of their own making, but their equipment is supplied as part of a service which started in 2003 and that should not be End-Of-Life in 2007 - that is unreasonable and is unfit for purpose in terms of Consumer Rights in my opinion and probably that of many solicitors.

Don't even waste your time as you have no leg to stand on, you signed up to a service that supported your operating systems at that time, now you've moved the goalposts and you want your ISP to bend to your new needs without any charges.

Their not breaking any laws as this change is beyond their control and they are still giving customers another way of connecting (offering them another modem)

For me its an IrelandOffLine issue in the sense of ensuring that Consumers do not get ripped off by poor practices carried out by the Broadband providers and that this issue is one that affects many. Exactly how many, I dont know. But there are probably people buying new modems from UTV to 'fix' this problem as we write this.

Again you moved the goalposts and UTV are actually being pretty nice by just charging you for the modem, they could provide it to you and stick you into a new contract.

Note that overall I am not demanding a new modem. All I'm looking for is a modem that supports a new operating system which will have an increasingly widespread installed base in due course. If UTV cant get the new driver from Zyxel (or get one written somewhere?), they should be obligated to solve it another way.

Redspider

ands they are resolving it by providing a new modem
They can't write the drivers as their owned by the vendor

You might as well cough up for the new modem as you have no leg to stand on here

watty

Make sure it is a real Ethernet one this time, not a USB only modem. From 45 Euro.

You can buy from www.komplett.ie, Argos or PC World. No need to buy from UTV. As long as it is ADSL.

This is nothing really to do with ZyXel or UTV.

1) Anyone getting Broadband should try and get an Ethernet product. USB is extremely Operating System Specific.
2) I bought a £500 video editing system once. It was for WFWG3.11, Neither Microsoft nor The manufacturer had any responsibility to make it Work on any other operating system (However it does still work on a spare Win 98SE PC I have).
3) Low cost alternatives exist to your Modem. Nowadays folks want WiFi and 4 port ethernet Router, so a USB only Modem is obsolete, I doubt Microsoft or ZyXel will ever support it
4) An old PC running Windows 98SE or Linux could connect to the USB modem and act as Proxy or NAT router for Ethernet and / or WiFi.

I'd give that USB modem only box back and spend about 100 Euro on a ADSL Modem with Firewall/NAT, Ethernet and WiFi. Turn of the WiFi if you don't need it. Don't buy something off UTV. Go to other forums and find out about ADSL routers.

5) This is all nothing to do with Ireland Offline.

watty

If you can afford a system able to sensibly run Vista, AND monthly UTV payments, you can afford a new ADSL modem/Router.

Solair

It's never a particularly good idea to change OS without checking that the drivers for your hardware are all available. Particularly, mission critical hardware like a DSL modem.

The Zyxel drivers will arrive, but it will take a while. This Windows Vista upgrade isn't quite the incremental upgrade from XP SP1 to XP SP2, Vista is substantially different "under the hood".

There's no way that it's incumbant upon UTV or anyone else to support this change. You're always better to get an ethernet modem though, and this is why! It gives you much greater flexibility as it means you can use it with any operating system, Windows, Mac OS, Linux, various other UNIXs etc as well as a whole variety of hardware like VoIP phones and ATAs, games consoles etc etc.


You'd pick up a decent DSL modem with built in router for quite little in PC World, Argos, or any computer store. If you're lazy and want to buy online, try www.buy4now.ie, gallaxy computers on there is quite good. It also means you can migrate between ISPs without needing to get their equipment.

I'm sure Zyxel will release Vista drivers for this modem eventually, but at the moment anyone using Vista is really an 'early adoptor', and you can be quite sure that many companies will be keen on waiting for MS to iron out any potential bugs / problems before they jump in and start releasing software on the platform. Developers often wait a little while as Version 1.0 of any product tends to be a grand public beta test really.

Just go buy a new modem!!!

Argos have some too.

redspider

Thanks once again for your responses. I am liasing with UTV.

Its all very well people advising that I should a) have gotten an Ethernet modem in the first place, and b) just go out and get a new modem, etc, but that is missing the key points.

The modem was supplied by UTV and remains the property of UTV. It is not my modem, it is theirs. I am getting a DSL service from them. To get that service surely they are obligated to setup their modem to deliver that service.

I can understand UTV's predicament, in fact I empathise with it. I realise Microsoft have left many devices with problems as Vista is not 100% backward compatible. I realise that Zyxel provided the modem and UTV are reliant upon them for drivers. So the problem is not of UTV's making, but likewise it is also not mine. Why therefore since I dont own the modem in the first place should I now be obligated to pay for a replacement for it ?!? To me it seems that UTV are trying to weasle out to save money.

UTV also have an unusual clause in their T's & C's:

"4.2 UTV Internet does not accept any responsibility for any defects or errors in either the Service or the Modem."

If a service doesnt work, that is more than a defect. And its not as if I am doing something quirkey or outside what is to be expected in the marketplace. Users will be installing Vista, and will get new systems with Vista. Granted I could cancel the service and get broadband from someone else, and who knows, they may provide a free modem!

By the way, there is no mention of an operating system or windows in their T's and C's.

I will continue to liaise with UTV and I'll report the outcome here.

Whilst it is not a major issue for IrelandOffLine, it is something which broadband users at large should be made aware of.

Redspider

Cabaal

redspider wrote:

The modem was supplied by UTV and remains the property of UTV. It is not my modem, it is theirs. I am getting a DSL service from them. To get that service surely they are obligated to setup their modem to deliver that service.

I can understand UTV's predicament, in fact I empathise with it. I realise Microsoft have left many devices with problems as Vista is not 100% backward compatible. I realise that Zyxel provided the modem and UTV are reliant upon them for drivers. So the problem is not of UTV's making, but likewise it is also not mine. Why therefore since I dont own the modem in the first place should I now be obligated to pay for a replacement for it ?!? To me it seems that UTV are trying to weasle out to save money.

UTV also have an unusual clause in their T's & C's:

"4.2 UTV Internet does not accept any responsibility for any defects or errors in either the Service or the Modem."

Yes they did give you the modem but you changed your operating system, not them not Zyxel...you.

As such it was your job to ensure your existing hardware and software would work on Vista, however you did not so now you want to pass the blame for something that you didn't bother to check before you upgraded.because you don't believe it was your responsibility

My hope on this is that UTV not let up and charge you for the modem or offer then modem for free and put you into a new contract, as I do not believe they are in the wrong

watty

Not UTV problem at all.

You could decide to go out and Buy an Amiga, or Sun SPARCstation with Solaris, or IBM AS/400 mainframe (now in PC sized box instead of whole room) or whatever.

Niether ZyXel, UTV or the OS / PC supplier is obliged to make the new setup work.

The original box I'm sure stated what OS and configuration is supported by the Modem.

This not a broadband issue.

If you change Operating System or PC some things you had before will NEVER work. This is inherent. This is not new with Vista. I bought my first "PC" in 1979. It has been the case since the first computers came out in the 1950s.

1) A Broadband supplier is not obliged to supply an ADSL modem or Router, they are a commodity item out of Argos. If it is not ADSL, then they do need to supply a modem.

2) If a BB supplier supplies a Modem for what you have, and you agree to this, then if you subsequently change something (such as New PC or New OS) so that it does not work, it is your problem. Not the BB suppliers, Not the Modem maker, not the PC maker, not the OS provider nor the Shop where you bought it.

3) The Shop that Supplied PC is only responsible if you employed them as a consultant to upgrade your system or specifically asked them if the exact BB Modem Model would be compatible.

If you can afford Vista and BB, then a better replacement Modem even out of Argos is small change. The only person with resonsibility to fix this is you.

Vista has clearly been publicised as not an incremental step like Windows2000 and Windows XP (AKA NT5.0 and NT5.1)

Plenty of Win98 USB gear has never worked on XP and never will. NT4.0 was superior to Win95 which sometimes supports USB, but NT4.0 (released 1996), while superior to Win98 and WinME has NEVER supported ANY USB device.

UTV are not trying to weasel. Why should they bear the cost of thousands of people getting Windows Vista? Getting suitable Peripherials is part of cost of an new OS and PC.

My printer failed. It was on a Network via a printer server and parallel port. My Server is NT4.0.

New Printers mostly do not have Parallel ports, nor support NT4.0
Should I insist that
* MS upgrade me to Server 2003 for free?
* The Printer Maker bring out an NT4.0 driver?

I also have a LOTS of gadgets that won't work on Vista. If I get Vista that will be my problem.

Many people who do have a a working ASDL modem from a BB supplier go and buy their own anyway!

The problem is your making. You changed the computer OS.

Any replacement modem you buy is yours and can save you money potentially if you changed supplier in install charges.

Cabaal

I believe redspider doesn't really get the major change that upgrading to Vista has caused, its not like just installing a new program

Vista is a totally different creature to XP or anything before and as such everything has to be checked and software/drivers made to get everything working with it, this is why they came up with ~"Vista Certified", its so people that are not very techy can check to see if their hardware or software will work with Vista.

Its obvious that redspider has not checked this out before hand,

I know I'm probabely coming across abit strong, but I don't like seeing people trying to shift the blame to other people (in this case UTV etc) when its their job to check things out before hand.

Altreab

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of this situation the main problem is Redspider cant go online with the present setup. The correction of the problem would appear to be the following.

1) Buy a UTV modem making sure its Vista certified and has an ethernet connection to avoid the present problem in the future.

2) Buy any ADSL modem from online or any shop that supplies them, making sure its Vista certified and has an ethernet connection to avoid the present problem in the future.

3) Dump Vista altogether and reinstall the orginal working setup.

Either way its time to Suck it up and sort the problem or continue using your present setup.

crawler

Could you not do the install using compatibility mode? (Assuming you have an install .exe that is....)

May be worth a try....

Right click on the program file (the .EXE or .COM file).
Select Properties from the menu that pops up (#1).
Select the Compatibility Tab in the dialog.
Change the options so the program opens in Windows 95 or 98 compatibility mode. Note the other options in the dialog as you may have to experiment a bit and change some of them as well (#2).
If this doesn't work, then try checking the "Run the program as an administrator" box (#3). This defeats the security in Windows Vista however and should be a last resort.

Solair

Regarding the UTV Terms and Conditions.

There is absolutely nothing defective, faulty or wrong with the Zyxel modem they've supplied you with. Nor is there anything wrong with the UTV service.

Nothing changed, nothing's faulty etc. at their end.

*YOU* decided to upgrade to Vista and thus changed your specs. That's not in anyway UTV's fault nor Zyxels fault and is entirely beyond their control. They had no control over how MS opted to change things in Vista and specified that you have Windows XP or Mac OS X.

If you decided to have something different and be an early adopter of a new OS on your head be it.

It's like arguing Zanussi should supply you with a new washing machine because you've decided to convert your home to 110V 60Hz power. It's totally unfair to suggest it's their problem.

redspider

Update: I am making some progress with UTV and they may have a solution which will be zero cost to me. I'll let you know.

An interesting set of responses. Some have cited examples of where other compatibility problems have stung people. Whilst those situations od occur and there are many of them, not all forward compatible issues have to be just swallowed as a cost on the consumer/user side. One key thing that is different with some of the examples mentioned is that I do NOT own the modem - it is UTV's. I am paying for a service, and i am supplying a PC and nowhere does it say which OS has to run on the PC.

Think of another scenario. A User's house is broken into and their PC is stolen, but their modem isnt. They get a new PC and it has Vista on it. Would UTV force them to buy a new modem as well, to facilitate the service even when they dont own the modem?

As stated, this problem is not of UTV's making and I understand their predicament. Zyxel is essentially letting down its customers, UTV among them. If I owned the modem I wouldnt be contacting UTV at all and would be following up with the manufacturers, Zyxel. I am still doing that as well, by the way, but engineering changes may take a long time to produce anything if at all.

crawler wrote:

Could you not do the install using compatibility mode? (Assuming you have an install .exe that is....)

I'll give that a go, although if Zyxel and UTV did think that would work they surely would have said so. I think there is more of a change to the driver model in Vista than the compatibility mode can handle.

lets see ...

Redspider

watty

It's a Microsoft issue, not ZyXel. AFAIK the issue is driver "signing".

In the case of My PC stolen and replaced it would depend which OS that was on it. Since I don't have Vista and it is still almost "beta", I'd insist on XP, Ubuntu or OS X or Server 2003 depending on which (or all) PCs stolen.

A PC with Vista currently would only be a replacement if the stolen one had Vista. XP is still available. You can even still buy legitimate NT 4.0 or Win 98SE if you search, though they are not supported. XP is still fully supported.

thebman

Yeah driver signing is probably responsible but it is better in the long run to have driver signing assuming Ms have a decent check to ensure the drivers are stable and they aren't giving to everyone who pays and instead ensure some kind of standard for it. That is good for the consumer.

The simplest solution is to downgrade to XP until a driver is available or you have the money to buy a new modem (not saying you don't but if you don't). The company is within their rights to not create new drivers for old hardware.

Ms are within their rights to introduce driver signing and stop older hardware being compatible. Don't like it, buy a different OS. There are plenty to choose from.

UTV should pass on this cost to you. Why shouldn't they? They can't be held accountable for other companies decisions. What does it say in your contract with them? I'm sure it doesn't say that they promise to provide you with a compatible modem if you change OS.

shinzon

had to say i lol'd at this, redspider obviously came on here looking for all the sympathy in the world because he changed his operating system, didnt bother to check to see if his drivers were compatible (thats why Microsoft released the upgrde advisor), then when he didnt get the sympathy he thought hed get, chose to ignore all the correct advise on here

1) namely that he changed the OS, not UTV, they have changed nothing in there service, there supplying broadband to you, and if you decide to upgrade to vista that is not there fault, they have no control over what zyxel choose to do or not to do with there products

and quite frankly, if UTV give into redspider and just give him a modem, then its going to set a bad precedent for the rest of the industry, the old well if red spider can get one for nothing i demand i get one as well

But tbh theres no point in replying anymore to this thread as obviously all facts are falling on deaf ears

Shin

Cabaal

shinzon wrote:

But tbh theres no point in replying anymore to this thread as obviously all facts are falling on deaf ears

Couldn't agree more, all the logic in the world doesn't appear to matter to him/her

redspider

> Could you not do the install using compatibility mode?

Well I gave that a go changing all the .exe's but without success, and that is to be expected really.

watty> It's a Microsoft issue, not ZyXel. AFAIK the issue is driver "signing".

True, MS are the ultimate cause of the problem but given their 'legal' monopoly position and outrageous profits on OS and Office there is no recourse for companies like Zyxel and the many similar companies that are dealing with this change.

But companies like Zyxel have three choices. They can:

a) develop drivers for Vista and provide them for free
b) develop drivers for Vista and charge something for them
c) not do anything about it and hope that complaining customers will 'go away', or preferrably upgrade to new kit which is theirs

In this case UTV is a customer of theirs and has purchased 1000's of these and similar boxes. And not that long ago either, 4 years ago or less. Vista was a well-known product in the pipeline at that time, the so-called Longhorn. It wasnt as if this has been a change in strategy by MS. Zyxel knew it was coming down the tracks.

I would prefer Zyxel to do a) of course, b) would be a compromise of sorts. Note that many companies are doing a) and did so before Vista launched. Thats what you call customer service and taking care of yiur customers.

Of course a User/Consumer can walk with their feet as it were, change OS, get a new modem, get a new broadband supplier, but before that, it always makessense to push back on the suppliers. They have the knowledge and the resources to solve this problem, and in more and more cases in the modern world, they need the push to do so.

shinzon wrote:

redspider obviously came on here looking for all the sympathy in the world because he changed his operating system, didnt bother to check to see if his drivers were compatible (thats why Microsoft released the upgrde advisor), then when he didnt get the sympathy he thought hed get, chose to ignore all the correct advise on here

On the contrary. I posted the issue up here to hear if other people have had similar problems, and if not, to at least let other broadband users in Ireland know of the situation. If I was looking for sympathy I probably would have posted in Personal Issues.

Thanks once again for the responses and the advice, and I'll update here when it comes to a conclusion.

Redspider

watty

A USB only ADSL Modem is regarded as very limited. 4 years is a long time for a cheap USB product. They might never release a driver if they had to actually write one. But if it is just Driver signing, then indeed you might see a driver later.

Why should ZyXel & UTV be out of pocket due to MS poor implementation of Vista.

BTW, I have written drivers in the past and been in the MS Development Program etc. It isn't trivial sorting MS contacts.

Right now I'm writing & compling drivers for one of my les favorite OS, Linux. At least it will install when I have done it properly.

Vista seems the be the biggest backward step since Windows ME. Windows 98SE or NT4.0 was far superior to Windows ME. Vista looks like the Windows2000/XP/2003 equivalent of Win ME.

I feel sorry for anyone that HAS to use it. Get XP and let other people be unpaid beta Testers. Upgrade at SP1 or SP2. Or at SP1 of the next Windows release.

quad_red

watty wrote:

I feel sorry for anyone that HAS to use it. Get XP and let other people be unpaid beta Testers.

Ouch!

MarkR

Reinstall xp. Problem solved. Everything after that is your own business. Why on earth would you upgrade to vista if you're still using a USB modem? Did you do the compatibility check beforehand? I doubt it.

redspider

UTV shipped me a replacement modem with ethernet which works with Vista, no problemo.

By the way, UTV Support were very helpful and were also able to discuss the ins and outs of the situation in relation to Microsoft and Zyxel and themselves very candidly, which was very refreshing to hear. None of this: "its not our problem" attitude which you sometimes get and which seems to be the default position of some (most?) people on here. I thought Ireland OffLine was about lobbying/sticking together to improve consumer services in relation to Broadband and internet access.

Mileage may vary with tech support but in this particular situation it was very good. And I would certainly recommend UTV as a provider.

Now the UTV broadband can connect to a myriad of boxes, Vista, XP, and aghast, even an ME version!

Merry IP-ing,

Redspider

watty

It will even work on MSDOS 6.22 and DR DOS. I have TCP/IP stack and browser

Glad you are sorted. I think the simplest thing for most people is to say that no longer have a USB port and in many cases ISPs will be accomodating rather than the whole red herring of who is responsible to make USB devices work on Vista.

Now also you can easily add a WiFi Router or Bridge or PS2 console