€50 Ante 5-card draw AAA hand

Flipper

Playing 8 handed in a €50 5 card draw (jacks or better & 1 joker wild) game. I'm the dealer and post my €50 (empty pot). It's passed all the way back around to me and I look down at Ah-Ax-Joker-rag(h)-rag(h) and open it for €50. I get two callers - both in late position and both draw one (obv on a flush or straight draw).

Pot: €200

How many would you buy and why? I got slammed after the hand for what I did.... Would like to see if anyone has the same idea as myself

EDIT: to include the rag cards' suits

nicnicnic

looking like another flipper classic, please tell me you didn't fold

ianmc38

I'd go for the draw none bluff.

BigCityBanker

oh man this brings me back...

with both players drawing one you are going to need to improve your hand to win the pot if they hit so a bluff is worthless against them.

Draw 2.

bops

nicnicnic wrote:

looking like another flipper classic, please tell me you didn't fold

lol... just lol

BigCityBanker

ianmc38 wrote:

I'd go for the draw none bluff.

this is the wrong line imo.

smurph

Flipper wrote:

Playing 8 handed in a €50 5 card draw (jacks or better & 1 joker wild) game. I'm the dealer and post my €50 (empty pot). It's passed all the way back around to me and I look down at A-A-Joker-rag-rag and open it for €50. I get two callers - both in late position and both draw one (obv on a flush or straight draw).

Pot: €200

How many would you buy and why? I got slammed after the hand for what I did.... Would like to see if anyone has the same idea as myself

Please god don't tell me you bought 1 card. Even worse, you smoked (bought none for the young un's). Buy 2, bet out, without looking, put them to the test..

If the other two couldn't open they are on a flush or straight draw. No need to hide the fact that you have trips. They don't know that you have 3 Aces.

Oh the memories of 5 card draw. Great game, so many variations, 1 eyed jacks r wild and trebs to open, sigh........

ianmc38

BigCityBanker wrote:

this is the wrong line imo.

Each to his own. I stood pat with 22257 after the second draw in 2-7 lowball last night. Everyone folded. That made me happy

If i was to draw, i'd be drawing 2 not 1.

The optimal line is draw none, then let the 2 aces and the joker sli[ from your hand as you bet postdraw.

ArmaniJeanss

You threw your Aces and Rags, kept the joker and drew 4 ?

You need to improve if they hit their draws, and you think this gives you the best chance of improving (though it may not be true).

You've telegraphed that you have the joker, if they miss their draws, they will know they are unlikely to be ahead, only Joker and 4 diff cards in your hand will have them ahead.

So you win anyway if they miss, and give yourself best chance if they do hit.

That was your theory, they slated you.

(I'll delete this when it turns out to be wrong).

BigCityBanker

ianmc38 wrote:

The optimal line is draw none

Ian this isnt lowball - if you draw none here then stick to Holdem as it is terrible 5 card draw play.

Why you should Draw 2?

Situation 1

You draw 0 and tell the table that you have a made hand, both opponents miss and neither try to bluff you. You pretty much win the pot uncontrested.

Situation 2

You draw 0 and tell the table that you have a made hand, one or both opponents fill their draw and bets into you. You can not beat a full hand and probably make a stupid "i dont believe you" call for €200 quid.

Situation 3

You draw 2 - Your hand is unimproved - Opponent bets into you - opponent has either filled or is bluffing, you call may be justified now as you have given them the opportunity to try and bluff you.

Situation 4

You draw 2 - Your hand is improved - Opponent bets into you - you have him crushed and can comfortably reraise him and he pays you off with a worse hand or drops his bluff - you show one ace along with the joker and tell the table if they want to fcuk with you they are playing for stacks.

Flipper

Note edit to suits of rag cards.....

Marq

Just because the players drew one card doesn't mean that they are on a draw. they could 2 small pair and didn't want to open but now are happy to draw one, or lower trips and they are trying to disguise their hand.

Draws are most likely, but don't discount the possibility of your opponents having made hands that aren't as strong as yours.

I would probably draw one if someone else had opened the pot, but as is I draw two. Your hand is telegraphed whether you draw 2 or stand pat, but drawing two gives you the best opportunity to improve, and improving gives you the best chance of winning a huge pot.

Never, ever, ever, drop the unsuited ace and draw to the flush draw.

ianmc38

BigCityBanker wrote:

Ian this isnt lowball - if you draw none here then stick to Holdem as it is terrible 5 card draw play.

Why you should Draw 2?

Situation 1

You draw 0 and tell the table that you have a made hand, both opponents miss and neither try to bluff you. You pretty much win the pot uncontrested.

Situation 2

You draw 0 and tell the table that you have a made hand, one or both opponents fill their draw and bets into you. You can not beat a full hand and probably make a stupid "i dont believe you" call for €200 quid.

Situation 3

You draw 2 - Your hand is unimproved - Opponent bets into you - opponent has either filled or is bluffing, you call may be justified now as you have given them the opportunity to try and bluff you.

Situation 4

You draw 2 - Your hand is improved - Opponent bets into you - you have him crushed and can comfortably reraise him and he pays you off with a worse hand or drops his bluff - you show one ace along with the joker and tell the table if they want to fcuk with you they are playing for stacks.

Thank you for quoting me out of context. I'm just tryin to keep myself amused until 5.

BigCityBanker

ianmc38 wrote:

Thank you for quoting me out of context.

genuine apologies Ian - I misread your post.

ianmc38

Lol np. I'm only messing. There's only so many times I can press F5 on the poker forum in one day before going slightly insane.

Hitman Actual

I've been racking my brains to think of a better way to play this than just drawing 2 as normal, but really can't think of one.

redzerdrog

I drop the unsuited ace. If the others are on a draw and miss your still ahead if you miss aswell. If you hit your flush your always ahead again. think i am confusing myself here

DITTag

Buying one card isn't all bad. You have 10 outs and if you hit your beating any straight or possibly any flush that they may have drawn too.

Can you use your Joker as an Ah also?

phantom_lord

ianmc38 wrote:

Lol np. I'm only messing. There's only so many times I can press F5 on the poker forum in one day before going slightly insane.

get opera, auto-reload is the nuts.

BigCityBanker

Flipper,

Given the action I now draw one and aim for the "blue", unless one of your opponents is very tricky then you are ahead post draw with your pair of aces unless one of these guys hit. Drawing to the hearts give you the best odds of making a made hand. If they berated you for this play then go back and play some more with them.

Mellor

Edit: I started this before anybody suggested going for the flush, didnt steal the idea

Most people would draw two here, as it gives you the best chance of improving to a house or quads. From memory, I think you have a roughly 1-12 chances of improving this way.

Possible outcomes
1. If both villians are on draws, you will win no more money when they miss picking up the pot.
2. If one hits and you don't improve you will lose.
3. When a villian hits his draw and you improve, you will win big, but this is unlikely.


I think that the best play is to draw one card. But not throwing away a rag as most people would.
Discard the non heart ace.
Keeping Ah-Joker-rag(h)-rag(h)
Draw to the flush, Ten outs, plus 8 cards that will give you trips again. It might seam stupid to break up trips. but think of the outcomes now.

Possible outcomes
1. If both villians are on draws and miss, your aces will often still win the hand.
2. If one hits and you don't improve you will still lose.
3. When a villian hits his draw and you improve, you will win big, you will improve when drawing to the flush 4 times more often than the house.


Is this the line you took, and got roasted for?

smurph

redzerdrog wrote:

I drop the unsuited ace. If the others are on a draw and miss your still ahead if you miss aswell. If you hit your flush your always ahead again. think i am confusing myself here

if there is a joker here is it not trips to open, are you allowed to split your openers?

redzerdrog

smurph wrote:

if there is a joker here is it not trips to open, are you allowed to split your openers?

jacks or better to open so it doesnt matter if you can split your openers or nat as you still have a pair of aces (using your joker)

Mellor

smurph wrote:

if there is a joker here is it not trips to open, are you allowed to split your openers?

Flipper wrote:

5 card draw (jacks or better & 1 joker wild) game

Jacks or better, so he still has his openers

ianmc38

phantom_lord wrote:

get opera, auto-reload is the nuts.

Cant use any browser other than IE in work due to proxy issues. Sux.

Ste05

God I love 5 card draw, no clue how to play it properly though, I'm thrown about what I'd do here, Without the flush draw I always throw 2. With the flush draw I think I drop the unsuited Ace, but I'm in 2 minds.

Here's my thoughts, berate me if I'm miles off, you owe me a couple by now I'm sure, I'm no 5 Card draw player.

If we split the A's we still have solid openers with AA. So if both Villains miss their draws then we still win (and I'll call 1 bet hoping to catch a bluff) If someone has 2 pair and was slow playing them, we have loads of other trip outs to hit as well as our flush outs that will beat them, so mneh

If we throw away our 2 rag hearts and don't improve, but one of them do, then we are in exactly the same spot as we would have been if we threw away the Ax.

Now here's my dilemna, by chasing the flush we will not be as comfortable and unlikely to win a HUGE pot, whereas if we chase the house/quads we can win a monster. I presume the games you play in Flipper have big tanks. We probably can't safely re-raise. Whereas with Quads/ house we can try and get AI. OK, I've actually done a full 180 and now think I'd throw away the Hearts.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happened.

Hitman Actual

Mellor wrote:

Edit: I started this before anybody suggested going for the flush, didnt steal the idea

Most people would draw two here, as it gives you the best chance of improving to a house or quads. From memory, I think you have a roughly 1-12 chances of improving this way.

It's about 15% for the AAJoker to improve to FH/Quads, and ~ 20% for the FD. So there's not much in it at all.

BigCityBanker

Ste

You post makes no sense. Our flush will be almost certainly the NUTS post draw if we hit it - it is not sensible to think other than this. If we make our flush we cant be anything but comfortable. As we will effectively be tabling a flush with AhKh and potential for another high one with whatever we hit.. We do not need to hit quads/house to get it all in - a flush of any proportion should be sufficient.

BigCityBanker

lenny_leonard wrote:

It's about 15% for the AAJoker to improve to FH/Quads, and ~ 20% for the FD. So there's not much in it at all.

wow - is that it? jesus I had it pegged as the FD being the fav. il av to go back to math class.

charlesanto

Flipper wrote:

Playing 8 handed in a €50 5 card draw (jacks or better & 1 joker wild) game. I'm the dealer and post my €50 (empty pot). It's passed all the way back around to me and I look down at Ah-Ax-Joker-rag(h)-rag(h) and open it for €50. I get two callers - both in late position and both draw one (obv on a flush or straight draw).

Pot: €200

How many would you buy and why? I got slammed after the hand for what I did.... Would like to see if anyone has the same idea as myself

EDIT: to include the rag cards' suits

Some observations that people have over looked....

1. It's 8 handed, so the probability of someone passing openers with the goods is very high.
2. Not opening with a mid-two pair would be the correct play with a wildie in the deck, the winning hand will be a treb upwards... the whole deck will be dealt!

So with these two in mind, playing for the flush is bad imo.

The best chance to hit a house and win a monster is to draw one card throw one of the rags!!!

Ste05

BigCityBanker wrote:

Ste

You post makes no sense. Our flush will be almost certainly the NUTS post draw if we hit it - it is not sensible to think other than this. If we make our flush we cant be anything but comfortable. As we will effectively be tabling a flush with AhKh and potential for another high one with whatever we hit.. We do not need to hit quads/house to get it all in - a flush of any proportion should be sufficient.

LOL, very true, what I was referring to was the chances of one of the other two players holding 2 pair and improving to a house, so although they could be on a draw, they could be drawing to a house. That was what I meant when I was referring to not being comfortable getting AI (I presume they are well stacked up).

I think what I would do would depend on how deep the stacks were, the deeper they are the more I chase the quads and the shallower they are I think I go for the Flush. But again this might be irrelevant, but I would be more uncomfortable putting in 500 Ante's with a Flush as opposed to under 100.

Also I wasn't worried at all about a better flush because we hold 2 of the aces so it's less likely.

P.S. I'm probably way off, this is just educated guess work so correct away, I'm a 5 card donk and I wouldn't mind knowing a bit more about the fundamentals of that game, I only play it in the pub on a Sunday during an auld day of gambling because none of my mates will play Hold 'Em with me any more.

Hitman Actual

charlesanto wrote:

The best chance to hit a house and win a monster is to draw one card throw one of the rags!!!

I don't get this; haven't you only 3 house outs if you keep a rag? (Plus 2 more Ace outs for quads).

And the OP said the two callers were in LP, so drawing hands are much more likely.

Hectorjelly

Great post flipper.

If you are sure that they are both drawing for flushes/straights, then I think drawing to a flush is best, as you will have at least a pair of aces which will win if both of them dont improve, plus you have the greatest chance of improving to what should be the best hand.

However, it would irk me to throw away the chance of getting 5 aces.

Marq

Flipper can you clarify something?
Can the joker be used as any card or just as a bug or an ace?
this changes things significantly.

charlesanto

lenny_leonard wrote:

I don't get this; haven't you only 3 house outs if you keep a rag? (Plus 2 more Ace outs for quads).

And the OP said the two callers were in LP, so drawing hands are much more likely.

Sorry my main point was that you may need to beat a small house...
.. which i still think is reasonable !
I know i wouldn't open this with a crap two pair !

Mellor

lenny_leonard wrote:

It's about 15% for the AAJoker to improve to FH/Quads, and ~ 20% for the FD. So there's not much in it at all.

sorry, I forgot about the joker the last time, having it there increases it a whole lot. And was over estimating the flush.


You have 10 heart outs, 48 cards left. So thats 21%

dropping two cards and going for the flush is 14%.
So flush is 1.5 times more likely.


and to charlesanto, If you drop one card you are about 10% to hit, this is the worst route to take. i have it here on paper if you want to see it.

Flipper

Ok, my uncle (been playing a long time) and I spent quiet a bit of time discussing this hand after and we disagree on the correct line of the draw.

My Opinion: Draw 1 (discard the non-heart Ace)

Reasons:
(1) If the two callers miss, two Aces will win as many pots as 3 Aces.
(2) If either player makes their hand, my Ace-king flush will be good almost always (assuming I make it) and be as good as a full house or four aces (if my opponent drew to a straight flush and filled, I'm still beat).
(3) As lenny pointed out, it's 14% vs 21%

Uncle's Opinion: Draw 2 (discard 2 rags)

Reason: You are representing strength in trips but you are also representing a hand that will be beaten by the straight/flush that they are drawing to. As you are in position, a hand that fills up will bet to you a lot of the time. If YOU fill (14% of the time), you can then raise it the knowledge that you have the "nuts". They will almost always look you up. So, if there's €200 in the pot, they bet €100 (it's half-pot limit after the draw), you see the €100 with €200 and they call, that'll land you a €800 pot.

Drawing none is awful IMO as it encourages a bet which could be misread as a bluff too often.

Drawing 1 is also bad as it portrays false weakness in your holdings and you won't be bet into unless you're beat (unless you fill up).

Mellor

One thing I just though of you draw one, you are put on a draw too. villian misses draw but picks up a high pair, say had 10JQK and picks up K
he thinks his KK might be good if you missed.

Ste05

He still has to beat openers and I presume Flipper isn't allowed to split his, so there's no chance of that really. What is Flipper going to miss, he still has to beat JJ what will he be drawing to, that KK can beat if he missed?

careca

There is the smallest chance that one of them is drawing to an A high flush (or blue at BCB said, lol, those were the days) and could catch the case A for a pair of As with a better kicker than Flippers.

Of course if he draws one, they will put him on two pair and won't call a bet.

NeVeR

Well Flipper did you win ? I take it you took 1,,

Flipper

Ya, drew 1 and missed my flush. Checked down and my pair of Aces won the pot