Recruitment companies scouring Monster.ie

GoneShootin

In the last two days I've received cold calls from two Dublin based recruitment companies trying to entice me to Dublin and Wexford respectively for a position that they were sure "was just up my street".

The balls of all this is that I specifically stated in my Monster.ie profile that I was interested in positions within Munster ONLY. In fact I believe I stated exactly which counties I was interested in.

Needless to say I hurled a few choice words at both of them, but I'm interested to know if this is common practice. It probably is, which further lends itself to the bad image that recruitment companies in general have tied to them.

Raekwon

Cold calling is a pain in the nads but alas it very much common practice with recruitment agencies.

Another one of their tricks is to advertise a 'fictitious' role to reel in as many CV's as possible so that they can then spam the applicants with roles that they need to get off their database.

To them you are just a sales target and they will treat you as such, hence their terrible reputation. I personally loath them! :mad:

markpb

Both of those things have happened to me lately, oddly enough both with CPL. First they rang me asking if I'd like a job in Galway and then they stopped replying about a job as soon as they had my CV.

Why do so many companies use them, especially when they don't advertise jobs on their own site - it's so annoying having to deal with them.

justfortherecor

Sorry for my ignorance, but what exactly is cold calling?

nesf

justfortherecor wrote:

Sorry for my ignorance, but what exactly is cold calling?

An unsolicited phone call. It's not a nice thing for the person receiving it (you answer your phone and there's this guy giving you a spiel about how he's found this perfect job for you on the Aran Islands) and it's a horrible thing to have to do (believe me you don't want to be the guy interrupting people to tell them about this perfect job plugging network cables into PCs out on Aran Island).

No professional sales team should ever resort to it, but they do, and in the recruitment field it's unfortunately common. That said, all the people I know working in 'good' recruitment agencies tell me that it's simply not done where they work. Then, as one of them explained to me, he mainly deals with accountants with 15+ years of experience and there's not that many around that you can afford to piss people off with cold calling.

It's the same in most sales fields.

maggz

By putting your CV on a website like Monster you are giving recruitment agencies the permission to call you. If you don't want cold calls you have the option of hiding your contact information on Monster. The whole purpose behind placing your CV on monster is so companies can access it and contact you regarding jobs...

Most people will put their preference location, but with the right opportunity they will consider other areas.

You put your cv up there, companies and agencies pay to access them, and they call you regarding jobs - they aren't doing anything wrong. You hardly put your CV on monster to make friends...

GoneShootin

maggz wrote:

they aren't doing anything wrong.

It's not up to them to decide where I "might" like to work. If I state that I only want to work in X number of counties then don't contact me regarding a job outside of that area.

eth0_

It wouldn't be so bad if they actually found an accurate match! I received loads of these unsolicited emails last month when I was looking for a job, and they were all either really below me but "a great opportunity" if I was willing to take a pay cut to 25 grand or some such sh1t money. Or they were just...nowhere near what i'm qualified for/have experience in.

All my experience since college has been helpdesk and then windows system admin, and I was getting emails asking me to go for programming jobs? Because, presumably, I studied a small amount of C and Java in college....six years ago.

sinbadfury

The recruitment agency industry here in Ireland is an unnecessary evil I think. We have all had cold calls, the various email examples to get you to return your most current CV. I have had some agencies call to ask if I had friends interested in roles they had, they didn't even try to shadow the fact by initially engaging me for a fictitious role, before asking.

In some cases a couple of years back I even lost out on positions as companies received my CV from two different agencies, thus canceling me out.

IMHO, be as nice as possible to them, I would even go as far to say, patronizing, but just remember that you are a sales target as mentioned above and any salary offered is 'their' offer not that of the company. It's all about their margins and they play you off the company and vice versa to maximise these.

maggz

sinbadfury wrote:

The recruitment agency industry here in Ireland is an unnecessary evil I think.

Seeing as there are about 900 of them in Ireland and they seem to be making a lot of money, there must be some people out there who think they are a necessary evil....

youcancallmeal

I recently put my CV up on a job search website while looking at some roles. After a while I got a new job I was going for but forgot to take my CV down afterwords, worst idea ever! Got cold called 3 times in the space of 2 days. I apologised to all of them saying I was no longer seeking a new job because I had already secured one. Every single one of them straight away said "Oh really where?". Kind of wierd I thought?

I felt like I was being put you on the spot and didnt feel comfortable discussing it with them. Thats what I get for being polite I guess? One guy even offered to call me back in a few months to see how I was getting on, that really bugged me. I just said no thanks I'll call you if I'm looking for a job and hung up.

sinbadfury

maggz wrote:

Seeing as there are about 900 of them in Ireland and they seem to be making a lot of money, there must be some people out there who think they are a necessary evil....

OK maybe my brush stroke was a bit wide. It's just having knowledge of how HR depts have to deal with agencies and job websites, in the way they price and setup job vacancies on behalf of the companies, the agencies/jobsites (one and the same really) are making it increasing difficult to advertise jobs in any other way, thus giving them a position in the market that is hugely conflicting.

They are telling the companies that they will get the best candidate for the least money while telling the candidate they will get them the best available salary with the best companies, but in truth they play candidate and company off each other to get the best margin for themselves.

Yes I know it is a business, it is not illegal, but I think they are taking advantage, especially when they force their position in the market?

I would go out on a limb (and prob loose it), by saying that there would be a huge number of candidates and businesses that would rather omit them from the process...

sinbadfury

youcancallme>al wrote:

...I was no longer seeking a new job because I had already secured one. Every single one of them straight away said "Oh really where?". Kind of wierd I thought?

I felt like I was being put you on the spot and didnt feel comfortable discussing it with them. Thats what I get for being polite I guess? One guy even offered to call me back in a few months to see how I was getting on, that really bugged me. I just said no thanks I'll call you if I'm looking for a job and hung up.

You should never feel pressurized to tell them where you work or what your salary is. It's data mining on their part. The amount of data they collect is unbelievable, lets just hope they are being responsible with it!

But as you said, being polite is always the way to go. In my work past, some of the agents take things very personally, and I was even reminded that I had refused a role previously with them when going for another role a year afterwards...

Millionaire

I am a recrutier... I contact candidates who post CVs on job sites only if their skills, experience and salary are matching to the job I have open and I am currently trying to fill.... (however I work a very narrow niche within IT, so I am after a fairly specific skills set usually).

agencies calling people up with jobs that are unsuitable....that one I can never figure out what the point of that is. Though some 2nd hand car sales type recruitment people ( thats usually IT agencies who are UK owed, and have very pushy consultants)..want to speak to people to find out where else they are interviewing, so the recruiter can call up the company direct with their own people. (now thats what gets this sector a bad name).

On the subject of being cold called.... I as a business owner, get at least 1 cold call a day from people selling all sorts of stuff from advertising, printer ink jets, hotel promotions etc etc... I just nicely tell the person I am not interested. simple as that.

I often feel amused why people get so worked up because someone gives them a call, when all you have to do is nicely tell them your not interested, and no point in them calling you again as your not in the market.

Its not some huge big personal conspircy against you, just because some kid from the Golden Pages calls up and asks you are you interested in taking out advertising in the 2008 edition. :-)

Kind of reminds me of the day my car broke down on the Tallaght M50 round about in rish hour traffic causing a massive traffice jam. The looks of venom people gave me when passing by was scary... as if I deliberately set out that morning to break my car down on purpose on the M50 roundabout in order to personally mess up their morning. (not one stopped to off to help either!!)

If you do post your CV on monster....you will get calls from agencies both the good guys and also the bad guys. If it makes you that mad, best thing to do is not put it up there. Me personally if I was looking for a job, I would not post my personal details unless I was really desperate and needed to get something really immediate.

sinbadfury

It sounds like are one of the reputable agents out there. And from my good experiences you are not alone in that respect. It's just the bad experiences tend to be too numerous.

I think candidates (correct me if I'm wrong anyone) just want to feel that when they do get a call, it is for a real job and they really are considered the 'right stuff' for it.

It's just that you have to admit, there is a huge lack of confidence around the integrity of agents in general (the good ones get bad press obviously), and the only way that will change is from within the agency sector itself.

Would you welcome regulation in your industry? Seems to me it's the only way to win back some sort of confidence?

Millionaire

sinbadfury wrote:

Would you welcome regulation in your industry? Seems to me it's the only way to win back some sort of confidence?

If regulation ensured ethical practice, yes of course.....but the question is...how do you regulate it???

I guess there is lots of industries that could do with regulation too... pubs that serve people drink until they fall over, and then the barman chucks them out on the street, bouncers, cops who abuse their power, trades men who start a job and come back weeks later to finish it, estate agents, rude customer service people in shops and call centres, the list could go on and on and on...

I think a big problem in recruitment agencies is the recruiter are paid on high commission/low basic (in alot of agencies but not all), so the team mangers who get a cut of the team commission are pushing for sales all the time. this is when candidates start to be viewed as "pay checks" and not people. In fact I worked for one such IT Rec company in late 90s, their still in Ireland, (UK HQ company), and one of the reasons I left in 2000 and set up on my own, was I could not stomach the money grabbing attitudes of the management.... consultants were encourage to pull any trick in the book to make more sales. In fact I do not even tell people the name of this company, as I am embarrassed that I worked there. They used to get an unsuspecting candidates CV and postal mail shot it all over dublin to 100s of companies and not tell the candidates (I assume their still at it)... in the hope that some company would call up interested in the CV...and normally a few would call up and want to interview the candidate...

So maybe if recruiters were paid a good salary and smaller bonus instead of a high commssion it would cut down some of the shady tricks.

Personally, I think Recruitment Agencies get paid too much fee wise for what they do, and also alot of recruitment consultants are over paid too.

Re regulation yearly you have to apply for a license and the cops do a background check on you (as an owner). other than that data protection act applies.

Basically these are my rules... I tell candidate who client is, and then candidate must decided if they want Cv sent to job or not... I only offer my advice to the candidate, the decision is theirs. I give honesty all through the process, and I expect honesty in return. I do not call candidates about jobs that do not exist....why should I... I am too busy looking for people for the jobs I have within my sub niche. I only send those who appear to be exact matches to job spec to client. (sometimes I am too strict on this)..

Now recruitment gets a bad rep alot..and I understand, due to some of tricks played by some agencies.

However on the other hand, despite my attempts to be 100% honest, I often have candidates screw me over too, perhaps lie to me, or worse not show up on a start date after signing a contact.

Also this happens all the time...companies contact you with a job...your work for 5 or 6 hours looking for, contacting people, screening them, and sending CVs over, and company never comes back to you... never returns calls/emails...which means your left with 3 - 5 angry candidates who blame the recruiters.

and worse...some companies take staff off you...after you working hard, and then refuse to pay your invoice. which is not very cool either.

So thats my views on the whole thing.

All in All...if some agencies/recruiters were not so damn greedy, and followed a few basic rules of ethics and manners, and a little consideration for candidates and clients the sector would run alot better. and if the same applied to some candidates and some companies...it would be twice as good!

sinbadfury

It is refreshing to hear that people like yourself within your industry have concerns about certain agencies operating in it. I guess it is the same for anything really. As you said candidates as well as companies themselves can be non-professional, and that has be acknowledged also I guess.

I think it's the way agents can come across, especially in the likes of IT contract rates. They can tell you the company wont give an increase or try to barter you down to a rate that 'they' think is acceptable, even though the candidate is the professional and knows their worth (unless they are chancing their arm, it does happen). In my opinion, I would have thought that if say a recruiter is taking 20% or whatever it is of a daily rate that it would be up to the recruiter to negotiate with the candidate at renewal time using their margin, and not asking the company to foot the extra so that the recruiter can maintain that margin. A company could decide not to renew in this case and then both the candidate and the recruiter loose out as it is the candidate who 'making' the money for the recruiter essentially.

There is definitely a lack of transparency with regard to rate structure and there is definitely no sense of competition in the market? Candidates do deserve to know what they are being sold out for and what they are actually getting from the deal

If everything was up front, then everyone would get along better I think. Candidates/contractors can make good money, agents can do business and get paid 'well' based on their pricing and service and companies can be charged appropriately for the advantage they get from outsourcing their recruitment....everyones a winner ? Greed ruins all that though!

Millionaire

Yes exactly, its greed, and people being more concerned about sales targets and commissions, than peoples feelings the mess things up.

I work mainly permanent work, so I would not as uptodate on the contracting scene. However, I do think IT contractors get the worst treatment off the more unethical recruiters, and contractors as very weary of agencies based on this. if I do contract, I am "open book" and tell client my mark up, and the candidate too, if they want to know. that way, all parties should be happier.

As of me, we are only a small company(mainly network engineers, tech support people) we're not perfect but we do try our very best, and sometimes the trickers beat me to the punch, maybe getting Cvs out without telling the candidates, which makes it harder for us ethical people who spend time to tell the candidate about the job and who client is before Cv is sent. sure I might make a little less money, but I can look myself in the mirror eveyday, and face up to anyone I meet, and to me thats much more important :-)

maggz

I also work in recruitment - hence standing up for the bad guys. I got into it because I had an IT degree and enjoyed sales. So never wanted to work in a technical role. I see so many IT recruiters who give the rest of us bad reputations, they make my blood boil. Greedy, lying bullsh~tters.
I have always worked in a way where I got to know a very specific system and i get to know companies who use that system and guys who work in the area. I get to know people, I meet them, get to know them as a person and try everything I can to help them with a job. Ive never promised anyone that i will 100% get them a job but I will do everything I can to help them.
Anyway it has worked well for me and by doing things in a proper, honest manner. I could give some of those bad guys a run for their money, and probably earn as much, if not more money then they do, by simply not p~ssing half the ppl I deal with off.
Cold calling is a necessary evil I'm afraid, as you have to start from somewhere, and because i'm working in such a specific area, its often the only way to get to know people. But I never lie and I'm never pushy. Im working in a commission based position and people have to understand that Im here to make a living too, but Im always very open about that with the people I deal with and will always try and get them the highest price possible and not steal the money they are working hard to earn.

mick.fr

I really do not understand why people are whining about the fact they got cold calls from agencies. As soon as they agreed to make their CV public or send their CV to an agency, it means they are looking for a job, or were.

Now if the agency proposes you a job too far, or not exactly within your competencies, or sometimes nothing to do with your skills, simply gently reply to the guy this is not what you looking for, takes 1 mn and everybody is happy, the recruiter updates his records (Eventually) and calls you at some stage later with a more relevant position.

Millionaire

mick.fr wrote:

I really do not understand why people are whining about the fact they got cold calls from agencies. As soon as they agreed to make their CV public or send their CV to an agency, it means they are looking for a job, or were.

Now if the agency proposes you a job too far, or not exactly within your competencies, or sometimes nothing to do with your skills, simply gently reply to the guy this is not what you looking for, takes 1 mn and everybody is happy, the recruiter updates his records (Eventually) and calls you at some stage later with a more relevant position.

Thats about the height of it. Anyone I cold called, and got a job, or even a few interviews, seemed to be thankful and greatful that I contacted them. (about relevant jobs of course).

monkey24

Millionaire wrote:

If regulation ensured ethical practice, yes of course.....but the question is...how do you regulate it???

I guess there is lots of industries that could do with regulation too... pubs that serve people drink until they fall over, and then the barman chucks them out on the street, bouncers, cops who abuse their power, trades men who start a job and come back weeks later to finish it, estate agents, rude customer service people in shops and call centres, the list could go on and on and on...

I think a big problem in recruitment agencies is the recruiter are paid on high commission/low basic (in alot of agencies but not all), so the team mangers who get a cut of the team commission are pushing for sales all the time. this is when candidates start to be viewed as "pay checks" and not people. In fact I worked for one such IT Rec company in late 90s, their still in Ireland, (UK HQ company), and one of the reasons I left in 2000 and set up on my own, was I could not stomach the money grabbing attitudes of the management.... consultants were encourage to pull any trick in the book to make more sales. In fact I do not even tell people the name of this company, as I am embarrassed that I worked there. They used to get an unsuspecting candidates CV and postal mail shot it all over dublin to 100s of companies and not tell the candidates (I assume their still at it)... in the hope that some company would call up interested in the CV...and normally a few would call up and want to interview the candidate...

So maybe if recruiters were paid a good salary and smaller bonus instead of a high commssion it would cut down some of the shady tricks.

Personally, I think Recruitment Agencies get paid too much fee wise for what they do, and also alot of recruitment consultants are over paid too.

Re regulation yearly you have to apply for a license and the cops do a background check on you (as an owner). other than that data protection act applies.

Basically these are my rules... I tell candidate who client is, and then candidate must decided if they want Cv sent to job or not... I only offer my advice to the candidate, the decision is theirs. I give honesty all through the process, and I expect honesty in return. I do not call candidates about jobs that do not exist....why should I... I am too busy looking for people for the jobs I have within my sub niche. I only send those who appear to be exact matches to job spec to client. (sometimes I am too strict on this)..

Now recruitment gets a bad rep alot..and I understand, due to some of tricks played by some agencies.

However on the other hand, despite my attempts to be 100% honest, I often have candidates screw me over too, perhaps lie to me, or worse not show up on a start date after signing a contact.

Also this happens all the time...companies contact you with a job...your work for 5 or 6 hours looking for, contacting people, screening them, and sending CVs over, and company never comes back to you... never returns calls/emails...which means your left with 3 - 5 angry candidates who blame the recruiters.

and worse...some companies take staff off you...after you working hard, and then refuse to pay your invoice. which is not very cool either.

So thats my views on the whole thing.

All in All...if some agencies/recruiters were not so damn greedy, and followed a few basic rules of ethics and manners, and a little consideration for candidates and clients the sector would run alot better. and if the same applied to some candidates and some companies...it would be twice as good!

This is an excellent post. I have worked in the IT industry for several years and hold an hons degree in Computing Science. I am about to make the leap into IT recruitment. A lot of my friends within IT have negative views of recruitment due to past experiences. I would explain why i feel this is, as you have done in your post. I think its an excellent summary.

Most people would ask why go into the murky world of recruitment and not tech sales. In fact, I have been asked this a lot. I believe a good recruitment consultant provides a very valuable service to both their client and candidate. I got a lot out of a meeting with a recruitment consultant whilst working in Sydney as a Software Engineer and got some great advice. This is the way I will conduct myself when working in the industry.

Also, I think I know what firm you worked with to 2000 and I have an idea of what firm you run now, ill say no more

Evil Phil

I'm an I.T. contractor and I get cold called about once a week. It's not a big problem I just politely explain that I'm not currently looking for a position. What I don't like is companies asking me where I'm working (I never tell them), what my rate is or being extremely pushy. I just tell them that I can't reveil that information, take note of the agency and then avoid them in future.

danieldoran

sinbadfury wrote:

In some cases a couple of years back I even lost out on positions as companies received my CV from two different agencies, thus canceling me out.

IMHO, be as nice as possible to them, I would even go as far to say, patronizing, but just remember that you are a sales target as mentioned above and any salary offered is 'their' offer not that of the company. It's all about their margins and they play you off the company and vice versa to maximise these.

I read this and I felt compelled to reply...

First, your CV does not get "canceled out". What happens in this case is the company will contact the second agency that sent your CV and tell them that they have already gotten your CV. I mean really... Do you think a company is going to say "wow John was perfect for this job! Too bad we have gotten his CV twice! Cancel him out!"?

Also, with regards to remuneration we bill a percentage (15% to 20% usually) on the salary you receive so the salary is decided by the company, not the agency.

I have to say I am shocked to read how badly some recruitment consultants are regarded. I personally always call people back and reply to all emails. I feel I am up front and honest.

Also, I could not go to work everyday if people were "just a sales target" and that attitude would get me nowhere with companies or candidates. I personally pride myself on finding the right job for the right person and take an active interest in their situation. I only represent people I feel I can find jobs for.

As per this CV baiting or mass collection... I have no idea why any recruitment consultant would do this. It's totally unproductive to do so. Why would I want a candidate who lives in Galway to work in Dublin? In this economy people get jobs very quickly it would make no sense to stockpile people when they get placed in new jobs quickly.

I think a little common sense goes a long way here.

If a consultant has not returned your calls he or she is a bad consultant and you should contact his or her superior. I am sure they would love to know someone on their staff is acting so unprofessionally.

if anyone out there is looking for a job please feel free to PM me and if I can not help you I will try to put you in contact with someone who can.

Daniel Doran

testicle

You're getting around. #linux IRC yesterday, boards.ie today

danieldoran

testicle wrote:

You're getting around. #linux IRC yesterday, boards.ie today

Indeed I am! I am on irc.linux.ir #linux as well today private chat me if you'd like!

Millionaire

monkey24 wrote:

This is an excellent post. I have worked in the IT industry for several years and hold an hons degree in Computing Science. I am about to make the leap into IT recruitment. A lot of my friends within IT have negative views of recruitment due to past experiences. I would explain why i feel this is, as you have done in your post. I think its an excellent summary.

Most people would ask why go into the murky world of recruitment and not tech sales. In fact, I have been asked this a lot. I believe a good recruitment consultant provides a very valuable service to both their client and candidate. I got a lot out of a meeting with a recruitment consultant whilst working in Sydney as a Software Engineer and got some great advice. This is the way I will conduct myself when working in the industry.

Also, I think I know what firm you worked with to 2000 and I have an idea of what firm you run now, ill say no more

If I were you, and assuming you had the interest in it...I would go for Technical Sales... I spoke to Top IT Sales Professionals (I used to do an odd IT Sales recruitment job, but now i rarely bother, recruiting sales is very hard from my own experience)...The top IT Sales Professionals...for example working for a top bluechip IT solutions company and selling to top corporations, IT Solutions, Software Solutions...if they are good, and know their niche, and can talk a Director level to top 100 companies, the top guys are so rare, their always getting job offers...not to mention, the 100 - 200K a year with BWM (as example), and full benefits package. And when your working for likes of divisions in IBM, HP, etc etc... decision makers will give you time...your companies reputation speaks for itself... as opposed to bashing out 100 cold calls trying to find an SME who wants to buy a few new PCS and a Server, (though the top IT Reseller Sales guys do real well too)....

Sounds like you have the technical knowledge...assuming technical IT Sales is of interest... I would not bother with IT Recruitment. You are just underselling yourself...unless your 110% passionate.

To be honest Recruitment is a great buzz for your 1st few years, especially if its during good times, there is a boom for IT Staff, and your making big money and commissions. when the economy cools, and your bashing out cold calls daily, to very uninterested IT Managers...and your asking Desktop Engineers the same screening questions day in day out for years...it can get a bit dull at times.

Alot of people drop out after the 1st year.... those who do well, get on average a 2 - 3 years good stint..then they burn out... especially some of the high Sales target UK IT Recrutiment cos with the 8am - 8pm work hours. and then there is the few old lags like me...who had their champion days... despite yearly promise of I m getting out of this next year...it never happens...there is always something that pulls you back...like Rocky new movie...getting into the ring at 60! LOL!!!

I tell you in the recruitment biz, there are days you feel like smashing your head into a brick wall.

One example I had recently, was a client was slow to come back with an offer a candidate of mine whom they really liked..and the candidate got a job elsewhere himself (thats fine by me...the lad needed an urgent job), so the client had me under pressure to find a replacement...I worked for a week to get a few good skilled IT engineers...sent CVs down, had candidates all prepped on the company expecting immediate interviews, due to the amount of urgency client put on me... no word...followed up with a few calls, voice mails and emails (but not the level of being a pest), and then I got a one liner email "Thanks for your help, but we have decided to put the job on hold"

Now that was a major annoyance... but I guess thats part of the game IT Recruitment is...

Technical IT Sales would be alot better... VPs and C level Managers usually value your input...while in our case as recruiters...sometimes we are seen as a sometimes needed service, that is treated with a bit of distain.