Apology over 1920

abakan

From http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=72669


It is understood that the British government is considering issuing an apology for the Bloody Sunday massacre in Croke Park in 1920.

Tipperary player Michael Hogan and 13 other people were killed at the Tipperary versus Dublin match at the GAA’s headquarters by Crown forces.

The plan would be to lay a wreath at Croke Park by a British Minister on the day of the rugby match between Ireland and England in a fortnight.


What do people think of this -

I for one think its great and at least the British public will know what their country was doing to us but for me id still rather not see the union jack flying over croker.

muletide

I think the idea is good but the timing is wrong. It will only add an edge to the day that is not needed. Its only a game and should be treated as such.

This act would give some of the idiots who will boo GSTQ and protest at the opening of Croke Park some justificaton (if only in their own little short sighted minds)

As I said great idea but do it some other time and leave the day as a great sporting occasion and nothing else.

abakan

But isnt just about the game, this is about the occasion. This is the reason why there was so much debate over croker being opened.

Weather the delagates admitted it or not, most of them are older and would not want the English playing or the flag in Croke park.

muletide

abakan wrote:

But isnt just about the game, this is about the occasion. This is the reason why there was so much debate over croker being opened.

Weather the delagates admitted it or not, most of them are older and would not want the English playing or the flag in Croke park.

I am aware that it is not just about the game, but my point is that it should be just about the game. We cant keep adding a political slant to every interaction we have with our neighbours. We need to move on.

r3nu4l

The British public do know what happened! Last Thursday DJ Carey was interviewed on BBC radio 4 and was asked about the opening of Croke Park. The introduction to the article stated that in 1920 members of the British Army killed 14 unarmed civilians in Croke Park. The intro then moved on to talk about how Croke Park was a symbol of Irish nationalism and identity and the home of Gaelic sports.

They then introduced DJ who stated that he was happy for Croke Park to be opened and that the past is indeed the past. He also stated that he would be very ahppy for his own children to play either Soccer or Rugby and would love if they were good enough to see them play in Croke Park. (He did also say his preference would be for them to play Hurling and Gaelic football but if they didn't want to or were better at other sports, that would be fine)

As for the wreath laying...Damned if you do, damned if you don't tbh.

The meejia (media) will have a field day if it happens, front pages filled with pictures of wreath etc. and probably try to whip up a storm if nothing happens either.

Personally, I'd like to see the acknowlewdgement, nothing fussy, no grand speeches, just laying of a wreath with black ribbons and then get on with the game.

abakan

point taken - im in thailand at the moment and the subject has come up and the English the majority of them that ive talked to dont have a clue what happened and what is Croke park and why wasnt soccer and Rugby games havent beem played there before

Yes the media storm will be big but the same is gonna happen when ever the Irish - English soccer game happens - it's the past also but that will be a big occasion and the same media maddness and public interest

r3nu4l

Actually I may have overestimated the reach of BBC 4 because I must admit that it is seen as the 'intellectual' or 'posh' station and you are right, the vast majority of English people are probably clueless about it because they don't listen to Radio 4

Still, at least BBC 4 made the effort and got it mostly right!
I do think that laying a wreath will serve to educate the English public as a whole and maybe help them to understand Irish people and our attitudes a bit better, we are still a country trying to cope with our past, some want to cope by sweeping it all under the carpet and forget about it, others want to highlight every grievance.

Flukey

BBC television did a very good piece on the historical significance of Croke Park at the start of their coverage of the match on Saturday last. I've posted about it in more detail in other threads hereabouts.

Flukey

I have heard from people in Britain (that have been in Croke Park with me) that all the significant details of Croke Park, Hill 16 and Bloody Sunday in 1920 are getting a lot of coverage in the British media at present.

K-9

BBC where very sensitive about it on Sunday as Flukey says. I think it has started to dawn on them the significance and how emotional a subject it is in Ireland. About a month ago the English set up where asked about Croker and they didn't have a clue. I think they will be well informed by now.

GSTQ and the Union Jack will irk abit. But I think that's got more to do with the soccer element - I'm sure we all remember Lansdowne Road and David Kelly's goal. It's more how some elements misuse it in a triumphalist, sectarian way. The National Front type. The typical English Rugby fan is a different breed, Thank God. They come over for a good time and a good match.

cournioni

The Union Jack will not be flown over Croke Park, surely Georges Cross will be flown as it is England that Ireland playing and not the United Kingdom.

baztard

Flukey wrote:

BBC television did a very good piece on the historical significance of Croke Park at the start of their coverage of the match on Saturday last. I've posted about it in more detail in other threads hereabouts.

Was it BBC NI (ie. Only broadcast in NI) or was it shown in England as well do you know?

K-9

Baxtard - It was Rugby grandstand as far as I'm aware, would be throughout UK. John Inverdale presenteed, Keith Wood and Jeremy Guscott on panel. I think it's only dawned on the English the significance of the venue in the last few weeks. It was probably abit of an educational piece to rugby supporters prior to the England match.

Probably organised by the GAA Assimilator on Apres Match! Marty Morrissey was doing loads of interviews on RTE as well!

Flukey

The only bit of controversy on that piece is people pointing out that the BBC said that the British agents on that morning were "murdered" by the IRB and that the people in Croke Park were "killed". In any case, the viewers were given a good understanding of the significance of the GAA and Croke Park in particular.

The piece would have been shown across the main BBC network, so it would have been seen by BBC viewers in Britain, not just on the BBC Northern Ireland part. Of course there will be more English rugby fans tuned in for the next game, so it will be interesting to see if they repeat that piece or even do a new one.

squire1

I'd be happier if Martin Johnson apologised for making our president walk on the grass a few years ago in Landsdown Road. Arrogant git.

If the british government were to start apologising for every war crime they committed over the years it would be a full time job on every continent of the world and probably include most countries of the world.

If they feel it is the right thing to do then I've no problem with them doing it but I don't think a wreath will change the mindset of this nation overnight.

If it were done, it would be a PR stunt, no more.

Now, if they were to stop hero worshiping that Winston Chirchill, who was in fact the brains behind the Black and Tans and many other cynical attempts to crush native rebellions throughout the world, then that would be a gesture alright.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a die hard or anything. I welcome the English team and supporters to Croke Park, I'm looking forward to it, it is just the cynicism and arrogance of their government/leaders and foreign policy that sickens me. But the same could be said for our own goverment I suppose.

Plissken1

squire1 wrote:

I'd be happier if Martin Johnson apologised for making our president walk on the grass a few years ago in Landsdown Road. Arrogant git.

If the british government were to start apologising for every war crime they committed over the years it would be a full time job on every continent of the world and probably include most countries of the world.

I thought that was quite funny, I would have done the same, fair play to him.

As for war crimes, dont forget we helped them, thats why they have the Irish Gaurds. And I always think, if we had an army that big, we would have been just as ruthless. we would have re-zoned land all over the world, urban sprawl from Lusk all the way to Lahore, ...... "apartments for some, small Irish flags for others" "yesss, you have my vote"

baztard

Looks like there's not going to be any apology after all (In news this morning). The two governments have decided against it for some reason.

squire1

Plissken1 wrote:

we would have re-zoned land all over the world, urban sprawl from Lusk all the way to Lahore, ...... "apartments for some, small Irish flags for others" "yesss, you have my vote"

Ha, ha, quiet true, quite true:D

Helix

abakan wrote:

id still rather not see the union jack flying over croker.

wont it be st georges cross?

Nalced_irl

I agree that an apology would be kinda pointless on the day. If RSF do stage a protest, i say get in the Lansdowne Rd riot police from that Irl v Eng game and let them take care of em. The orange march was a different story as it was 100% designed to get in our faces and was looking for a riot which we stupidly gave them, this is a bloody rugby match. These guys are coming over to play a game not cause trouble and as said before, the rugby crowd are not trouble. I cant see any booing for gstq to be honest altho im sure i will cringe when it starts Still, looking forward to the game and hopefully a less disappointing result than last week.

kilasser

baztard wrote:

Was it BBC NI (ie. Only broadcast in NI) or was it shown in England as well do you know?

I watched the France V Ireland game in London on BBC 1 and the pre match thing shown in London was the exact same as what was shown in N. Ireland and all over the UK.

I work most of the time in England and alot of the English people I know and work with have never heard of the GAA, Croke Park, Gaelic football or hurling. Others that have heard of Croke park and Gaelic sports think that Croke park is owned by the IRA and that people who play the sports have something to do with the IRA. I hope that the media in the UK clears things up for English people building up to Sundays Match. Id also like to add most people I know in England have not got a clue about any thing that goes on in Ireland or anything about the country at all.

AthAnRi

muletide wrote:

I am aware that it is not just about the game, but my point is that it should be just about the game. We cant keep adding a political slant to every interaction we have with our neighbours. We need to move on.

Absolutely, the past is in the past, so we should forgive and forget. Forget all the innocent men and women that sacraficed their lives on that day.

I do believe that we as a nation do need to move on. And in many respects we have. However in order for us to move on fully we need to be able to forgive but the very least we deserve is an acknowledgment that a great wrong was commited on that day.

I agree that we can't keep adding a political slant to every interaction, but it's fair to say that we don't. When was the last time a political slant was discussed regarding an Irish Rugby match for example?

This game is an exception and rightly so, It is a significant step from our point of view towards moving as laying the wreathe is a significant step from an English point of view.

And as somone has already said the English are so oblivious to the history of Ireland it is unreal. This may help educate some of them, which can only be a good thing.

abakan

AthAnRi wrote:

I agree that we can't keep adding a political slant to every interaction, but it's fair to say that we don't. When was the last time a political slant was discussed regarding an Irish Rugby match for example?

Hum, an example would be the rugby matches - if there is a game of rugby taking place in the northern ireland -What national anthem would be played???? politics comes into that

was that not an option to play some smaller irish rugby games in the north but technically the anthem would have to be the UK national anthem. so that was a no no

JWAD

In today's Irish Times, Eddie O'Sullivan mentioned that the British anthem was played during the Special Olympics three years ago.
This true? If so, was there similar hoohah then as there is now?

beer enigma

kilasser wrote:

I watched the France V Ireland game in London on BBC 1 and the pre match thing shown in London was the exact same as what was shown in N. Ireland and all over the UK.

I work most of the time in England and alot of the English people I know and work with have never heard of the GAA, Croke Park, Gaelic football or hurling. Others that have heard of Croke park and Gaelic sports think that Croke park is owned by the IRA and that people who play the sports have something to do with the IRA. I hope that the media in the UK clears things up for English people building up to Sundays Match. Id also like to add most people I know in England have not got a clue about any thing that goes on in Ireland or anything about the country at all.

True....I'm English & moved to Ireland 10 years ago - at school I majored on modern history & knew nothing of the early troubles (1916-20) until I arrived here & started reading....IT's just not taught in English schools.

If anything, playing the match at Croke has brought the historical issues to many people in England who were totally unaware of the situation....take that as a positive. If I had a Euro for the amount of friends asking me 'whats all that about ?'....I'd be a rich man. Don't make the mistake of assuming that because it happened, everyone knows about it.

Oh & JWAD, yes the anthem was played during the Special Olympics & the GAA apparently had 5 letter of complaint (according to the Herald).

patmac

I object to Andip's avatar being allowed to be shown on boards, it's deeply upsetting and should be removed until a full apology is received from the British Government.
But seriously when I went to work in London in 1986 we were the scum of the earth because of the bombs but attitudes were changing when I left in 1994 and now we are more respected as we have made our peace and they have bigger problems to worry about. The english view on history is extremely blinkered much like the American reporting of the Iraq war at home so any kind of education of thier past sins must be welcomed. I thought the GAA did very well out of last Sunday both financially and publicity wise, a lot of Irish people will find it hard to listen to gstq but we must move on. I was at the last major sporting event between England and Ireland outside of rugby in Lansdowne in 1995 and every Irish person booed GSTQ that day but that had more to do with the extreme negativity of the opposing fans than anything else that night. As a GAA, rugby and soccer fan (in that order) I am glad thousands of Irish fans are not travelling to Cardiff this weekend but paying the GAA €1.8million which I hope will filter down to my local club team, which is why I voted for to open Croker in the first place. Let's just enjoy it although it would probably one of the most depressing defeats ever if they turn us over.

AthAnRi

abakan wrote:

Hum, an example would be the rugby matches - if there is a game of rugby taking place in the northern ireland -What national anthem would be played???? politics comes into that

was that not an option to play some smaller irish rugby games in the north but technically the anthem would have to be the UK national anthem. so that was a no no

so does this one example translate into 'every interaction'?

Also can it not be argued that every match between 2 nations will have a political slant to it? Particularly if the 2 nations have been at war some stage in the Past?

EG Ireland V England, England V Germany, England V Argentina, England V France?

In fact how many times on England V Ireland matches in the Past have RTE ever mentioned 1916, the war of Independence, Bloody Sunday? I might be wrong but I would imagine very few. Compare that to when England play Argentina in football, how many times do the BBC mention the Falklands war?

Vunderground

Not half as often as you people mention every event which can make you look like romantic ideallists on the edge of Europe. Will the Germans be asked to apologise for bombing the North Strand. All the lights were on lads. They didn't mistake it for Liverpool.

(Last bit for gaaa people who's grasp of anything begins and ends with the chips on their shoulders)