$1 $2, lost at sea

Hectorjelly

I make it $8 utg with QTs, folded to fish in the BB who makes it $14 to go. He has done this a few times, so I make it $25 more. He again min raises and I call.

Theres around $115 in the pot, and we both have $200 behind. The flop comes up T92r. He checks, I check.

The turn is a low rag, giving me a flush draw. He checks again, I check.

River is a jack. He bets $70, call or fold? Any other comments.


The guy was something like 40/7. I was at the table because on his right there was a 80/0 who somehow folded this hand.

Goodluck2me

He probably thinks preflop that KQ is the nuts by the river it actually is... i dont see you beating a whole lot maybe AK or AQ. he didnt mind getting chips in preflop his passive line post flop is somewhat suspicious, either a monster or air. he could also have AJ now that i think of it. fold and wait for a better spot.
in a sentence, without a specific read let it go and wait for a better spot as it looks increasingly unlikely you are ahead now. i also like your line on the flop and turn as you cant really call a substantial raise on either street.

robinlacey

preflop is terrible,and the rest of the hand is dictated by what happened preflop,so i don't know what i'd do,but i'd probably bet the flop.

Hectorjelly

Why is preflop terrible? He had minreraised me twice already in the previous 20 minutes and I thought he would fold. When he minraised me again I was getting 4:1 or something

robinlacey

your fold equity against a 40/7 who has already minraised you is fairly negligable-i doubt there are many players at 1/2 you can profitably four bet against,and if there are then he's not one of them.

i don't see why you didn't just call his first minraise,you are against a fish in position with QTs,4betting is for playing back at solid to good players who are 3betting you too much,not playing random minraising donks against whom you would prefer to keep the pot size reasonable so you can outplay them on the flop rather than just having to try to outguess them.

phantom_lord

without any other info I'd prob put him squarely on aks and call getting 2.5/1


but I don't really like the pf play at all, especially against a 40/7.

ocallagh

I don't like preflop. Why raise him again? QTs is not good enough to build a big pot preflop against a total fish. Against a decent opponent I don't mind the re-raise preflop. It might enable you to steal a pot from TT/JJ/AK on later streets. But against a fish, if you really want to play the hand I think calling his min raise preflop is far better than putting another 25 in which gains absolutely nothing.

As played it looks like you got lucky, he prob has AK and you should call. You're getting nearly 3/1.

Hectorjelly

Several times before I had raised and he had minraised. This isnt actually that bad a strategy on his part as it kept taking the initive away from me. He played ok (bad but nothing special) from the flop on so I didnt think he was a total looper, ie I thought he would react normally to my raise. Its not a situation Ive ever encountered before, but its one I wanted to stop. I wanted to be the one taking down pot unimproved, not him. Its unfortunate that I didnt get to see what hand he had so I really dont know how he did react to it.

I dont need my fold equity to be very high for it to be profitable.

Hectorjelly

I think any discussion of preflop is useless, obviously its not standard, but the dynamic that that leads to this pot is wha makes this hand interesting. Its literally the only hand in weeks I was really puzzled about.

Hectorjelly

ocallagh wrote:

I think calling his min raise preflop is far better than putting another 25 in which gains absolutely nothing.

The 25 gives me the inititive and raises the possibility in both of our minds that I may have AA or KK.

ocallagh

Hectorjelly wrote:

The 25 gives me the inititive and raises the possibility in both of our minds that I may have AA or KK.

I had him pegged for a total fish which would mean your 25 really achieves very little, but as you do rate him (albeit not very highly) I suppose the 25 bet does slow him down a bit.

His min re-raise again is very interesting. It really is weird. If I was to hazard a guess he's a limit player and he has AKs.

Limit player or not I know the type of opponent who likes to min raise a lot preflop. We should give them a name - LMD (Limit Minraising Donk). They are tricky to deal with. This min re-raise preflop bollox is similar to the donk bet which did NickyOd's head in:) I think they look at their hand preflop and think.Oh, I have AK. I better raise, but they pay no attention to stacks/position and how things might work out postflop. And when they min raise you a LOT preflop they're just LLMD's and you should treat every single min re-raise as ATs.

Gholimoli

I actually like the HJ 3 bet preflop as he said villain has been doing this a few times so the 3 bet is to send a message to him.
Alternative is to tighten up and not raise UTG with QTs and wait for a good hand and 3 bet him there.
I would play the hand in much the same way except maybe I would bet on the turn if I hadn’t picked up the flush draw but I would more than likely call his bet on the river.
What do you think he has playing like he did preflop ad checking on two streets and then betting the river?
If nothing else I would get to see what he has which would give a lot of info about him.

pok3rplaya

bet turn fold riv

Gholimoli

pok3rplaya wrote:

bet turn fold riv

why?
whats the plan if we bet turn and get raised?

Bandana boy

I think you have to call him here after checked flop and turn
the pot is tasty enough to be worth a steal from villain

Although i think he has flopped set and is slowplaying it but i think getting 3-1 enough times this is 88 Ak AQ etc for you to call

ianmc38

I'd have bet ealier in the hand and called the river. I dont mind preflop based on history.

BigCityBanker

Why not bet the flop?

If I worked my way into this situation I would take a stab at it. Is there a reason why I shouldnt be betting this flop?

AmarilloFats

I think betting the turn is best..it's rare that he'll check an over pair/set to you twice..

i fold to his river bet as played....

AmarilloFats

BigCityBanker wrote:

Why not bet the flop?

If I worked my way into this situation I would take a stab at it. Is there a reason why I shouldnt be betting this flop?

i don't like betting the flop as he'll often be looking for a check raise... it denies us the opportunity to outdraw, and is not the best us of our position imo...but on the turn when he checks.....

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

He had minreraised me twice already in the previous 20 minutes and I thought he would fold

Why did you think he would fold?

Bet the turn.

Gholimoli

BigCityBanker wrote:

Why not bet the flop?

If I worked my way into this situation I would take a stab at it. Is there a reason why I shouldnt be betting this flop?

the pot has been 4 betted preflop,raise,reraise,3bet and the 4 bet ,this means our villain usually has a very strong hand and usually its KK,AA here.
our hand on the flop is only a pair of tens,but we have been given a free chance to improve it by villain checking,its a very big mistake to bet here becuase generally you will be putting money in with the worse hand.

i dont like betting on the turn either when we dont improve and even less so when we have picked up a draw.even though i dont understand the check on two streets from villain i still dont like betting here for the reasons above.when we pick up a flush draw and have been given a free card i would take the free card here every time,basically you have picked up a draw that if comes in its almost always the best hand ,but by betting here you will open up the action here which will allow villain to raise you in which case you will have to fold .

bops

Gholimoli wrote:

the pot has been 4 betted preflop,raise,reraise,3bet and the 4 bet ,this means our villain usually has a very strong hand and usually its KK,AA here.
our hand on the flop is only a pair of tens,but we have been given a free chance to improve it by villain checking,its a very big mistake to bet here becuase generally you will be putting money in with the worse hand.

i dont like betting on the turn either when we dont improve and even less so when we have picked up a draw.even though i dont understand the check on two streets from villain i still dont like betting here for the reasons above.when we pick up a flush draw and have been given a free card i would take the free card here every time,basically you have picked up a draw that if comes in its almost always the best hand ,but by betting here you will open up the action here which will allow villain to raise you in which case you will have to fold .

It hurts to say it but i agree with all of the above.

I would have to call the river bet

Atlas_IRL

Why would you call raises just to check it down on all streets, your looking to hit the perfect flop... Wait for a better hand and then reraise him preflop your hand is horrible against a raise.. you hit the flop and still dont know where you are.

Strange play by him though, he could have been playing a pocket pair 2's - 9's and didnt think you hit the ten, his checking every street then betting doesnt really make sense though.
Donkies do like to slowplay high pocket pairs though..

Marq

what a strange hand.
I would bet turn and probably have to call an all in now that we have a flush draw. I don't like the idea of giving AK/AQ/AJ/KQ free cards to beat me.

pok3rplaya

Gholimoli wrote:

why?
whats the plan if we bet turn and get raised?

Because while this guy may be capable of checking the flop with AA I doubt he will check flop and turn with a hand that beats us. Most 1/2 players are simply just not that tricky.Therefore we should bet turn for value and protection.

If we bet turn and get raised it's an easy fold. I see no reason to believe that this guy would c/r the turn with no hand.

When he bets the river I think it's quite probable that the jack hit him and we should fold. then again he may be bluffing because we are acting like we have nothing so flip a coin or whatever. Actually no I'm wrong, call river considering the odds we are getting.

Preflop is bad too. If we are going to 4 bet we should raise bigger. I'd rather just call for implied odds + the change we have him beat going to the flop + the probability that we will beat him post flop. But then again HJ played with him, I haven't and if the general dynamic led HJ to believe that he would fold when 4bet then so be it.

pok3rplaya

Wait no I'm wrong again. I just realised we picked up a FD. I change my reply to check turn call riv lol

pok3rplaya

Also gholimoli the reason we check the turn here is similar to the reasons that I say check the turn in the other hand that phantom_lord posted. We don't want to get blown off our draw by a c/r.

Gholimoli

pok3rplaya wrote:

Also gholimoli the reason we check the turn here is similar to the reasons that I say check the turn in the other hand that phantom_lord posted. We don't want to get blown off our draw by a c/r.

i didnt ask why we should check on the turn,i suggested we should.
i asked why you suggested the bet on turn and fold on the river !

Bandana boy

pok3rplaya wrote:

bet turn fold riv

Gman challenges

pok3rplaya wrote:

Also gholimoli the reason we check the turn here is similar to the reasons that I say check the turn in the other hand that phantom_lord posted. We don't want to get blown off our draw by a c/r.

Classic
Response

The_Chopper

Hectorjelly wrote:

I make it $8 utg with QTs, folded to fish in the BB who makes it $14 to go. He has done this a few times, so I make it $25 more. He again min raises and I call.

Theres around $115 in the pot, and we both have $200 behind. The flop comes up T92r. He checks, I check.

The turn is a low rag, giving me a flush draw. He checks again, I check.

River is a jack. He bets $70, call or fold? Any other comments.


The guy was something like 40/7. I was at the table because on his right there was a 80/0 who somehow folded this hand.

As played it depends on your knowledge on the player if you call or fold.

Personally I don't like the way this hand has been played up until now - so I would just let the river go. Sometimes when I play a hand that I feel I may have played wrong on certain streets I'll let it go on the river when a danger card comes.

I like the check on the flop,

I don't like the check on the turn - to many times you'll be up against over cards in this situation to give a free one. I'd bet the turn for about 65/70 the pot.

pok3rplaya

Gholimoli wrote:

i didnt ask why we should check on the turn,i suggested we should.
i asked why you suggested the bet on turn and fold on the river !

I know that. I'm not telling you why we should check the turn in this hand, I'm telling you why you are wrong in the other one (phantom_lords).

pok3rplaya

Bandana boy wrote:

Gman challenges



Classic
Response

What is this supposed to mean?

valor

wow, I hate your preflop play alot

i fold river, he has QQ or JJ almost alwyas

Ste05

If I played a hand like this, there would be reasons that I couldn't properly explain on a message forum leading to my decision on the river. I've tried in the past with no luck :rolleyes:

If I was playing 4 bet pots with Q10s, (even though they were twice min-raised), I would probably call now. Also the 80/0 player at the table will have skewed the whole table dynamic so much so that I'd think it's very difficult to come up with anything meaningful here.

And I think alot of people seem to have missed that part, it messes with the ranges so much, that this isn't a normal 4 bet pot. (not that there's anything normal about this hand... )

Mr.Plough

probably a total plank question but can someone explain what people mean when they say 40/7 and 80/0 in describing a player?

cheers

Ste05

XX/YY

XX = VPiP (Voluntary Put $ in Pot) what % of hands the player voluntarily puts money into the pot Pre-Flop. 40 is very loose, 80 is suicidal, it's just a matter of time til he loses everything.

YY = PFR (Pre-Flop Raise %) What % of times a player raises the pot Pre-Flop. 7 is kinda low but not terribly so, it means if he raises it's usually a decent hand (say top 7% of starting hands as a quide) and 0 means he never raises Pre-Flop, so he could basically have anything.

Hectorjelly

I wish I had of called now, just to know what he had! If I had to guess a hand it would be JJJ/AA, maybe Im giving him too much credit though.

Ste05

Ahhhh HJ, I was looking forward to hearing what he had... Nit!!

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

I wish I had of called now, just to know what he had! If I had to guess a hand it would be JJJ/AA, maybe Im giving him too much credit though.

I think AJ is probably the most likely hand.

Gholimoli

pok3rplaya wrote:

I know that. I'm not telling you why we should check the turn in this hand, I'm telling you why you are wrong in the other one (phantom_lords).

even though that hand was alot different from this hand(that hand was not 4 betted pre-flop for starters) i still didnt say we should bet the turn there either infact i said im not against a check on the turn however the reason you gave for checking behind(ie if he has JJJ then we can stack him) was just silly and way off and that's what i was getting at.

SpermManJelly

I think its important to remember,there was alot of raising pre flop(sadly min raising) followed by no action on the flop or the turn.Which is why I think it would give the other player incentive to fire a bullet on the river.

Just a thought,this is just another factor i think should be included when a analyzing this hand.

Sperm Man Jelly.

Captain Tom

stack sizes are awkward here i like the turn check.

vs a player who plays like this pf i call river getting 2.5-1.

a147pro

HJ why don't you bet turn? Are you afraid you're behind, or are going to be put to a decision?
I prob bet the turn, a decent amount. If I'm reraised I give him credit for a hand. If flat called he prob checks the river anyway anticipating a further bet.

Are you thinking if I bet the turn he's definitely going to reraise so I may as well take the free card, then see what he throws at me on the river?
Danger as played is the AK steal.

Hectorjelly

on the turn I have top pair and a flush draw so if I bet I cant fold, id like to see a free river