Good fold/standard fold/horrific fold..live 1/2

jbravado

This hand took place in the emporium last monday night and is still really bugging me. The game is fluctuating between playing relativly big then periods of tiny dead pots.

Ive been playing about as loose as I get and am raising and reraising preflop pretty regularly.I have shown nearly all my hands and am pretty sure Im viewed as a bit of a maniac.I have however shown a couple of pretty big laydowns QQ(preflop-wrong and ak twice almost certainly wrong).I have been pretty close to having to reload a few times but have gone on a rush the last 25 minutes and now have about 850. Table average is about 3 or 4 and there are around two players who cover.

I straddle for 7 and look down at k4 hearts-mickste calls as does the villian in this hand.One more limper and the blinds complete.
The flop comes kkj rainbow.I lead for 20 or so.Mick calls.Villian raises to about one hundred.Villian seems to be pretty average-loves to call and in the previous hand took about 5 minutes to fold an inside straight draw.He has around 350 behind.I call after a small delay.

The turn is a blank.I check and he immediatly bets around two hundred.I originally called as I was sure I had the winner.At this stage the seeds of doubt set in......im not sure I can beat anything a normal punter can bet so strong on the turn...

Should my money have gone in on the flop?Is it an automatic call table conditios considered or is it an easy fold....?Any comments appreciated.

Hectorjelly

what are the stacks? If I call the flop raise im never folding at any further stage in the hand, also I dont like your flop bet.

jbravado

I have around 850 before the hand starts.Villian in the hand has around 350 behind after his raise on the flop.

Why?Whats your line on the flop?

Hectorjelly

If you have K4 on a KKx you do not want to have to put in 250bbs, so betting with the intention of calling a raise is bad. Check calling is much better because it controls the size of the pot. This is a bad spot to lead because you are setting yourself up for a very difficult decision. Your hand is strong, but not that strong. Its very easy to fold the best hand, or get stacked when you lead here.

jbravado

Point taken.

Now that I have led the flop does my table image not make this a great spot to get my money in?Presumably when I call the flop and he fires out on the turn I beat nothing.......
I thought this was a clear fold at the time-thinking back Im pretty sure it was the opposite.....

Hectorjelly

When you lead at a kkx board many opponents just assume you cant have a king, because ifyou did you would check as they would, because they are morons. So they see this as a good bluffing opportunity. I dont know about that paticular game and how it plays, but I would think I cant fold once I lead that flop, if the guy in question is aggro in any way.

His turn bet seems odd if he had a strong hand, as does his flop raise. Most players with a strong hand on a drawless board wouldnt be so aggressive.

Hectorjelly

that all said I think you run into a king a lot here, and you beat basically none of them

jbravado

Im still trying to figure out what he thought I had when I call his raise.I think even an absolute clown slows down without a k unless he took my call as weakness(which I suppose it may have been).........sigh.

RoundTower

I like the flop bet much better because you straddled (dead?), people believe you even less and call you down even lighter when you bet out of a straddle. That said I don't agree with HJ, calling the flop and folding the turn is OK against many players here, you don't really give enough information about villain but a lot of random guys I will just expect them to try one bluff raise and then give up on the turn.

mickste

Sam i'll put you out of misery. You made a good fold he had kq.
I agree with hector, check calling is much better. His betting pattern is strange compared to normal players, but the villian in question can be very tricky, rarley playing hands the same way.

Hectorjelly

I would make my decision on the flop and not the turn, a good player is going to slow down on the turn of course, but in my experience once someone starts a bluff like this they dont stop. Ive played a few hands in the fitz, I flop trips, bet and get raised. I call and check the turn to them, they then pot the turn with their two pair/bluff. Their play makes no sense, but it also means we cant really call on the flop and then fold the turn as we cant trust the villain to act accordingly. If the games play differently to this then ignore what im saying!

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

I would make my decision on the flop and not the turn, a good player is going to slow down on the turn of course, but in my experience once someone starts a bluff like this they dont stop. Ive played a few hands in the fitz, I flop trips, bet and get raised. I call and check the turn to them, they then pot the turn with their two pair/bluff. Their play makes no sense, but it also means we cant really call on the flop and then fold the turn as we cant trust the villain to act accordingly. If the games play differently to this then ignore what im saying!

yeah I haven't played it in so long you're probably right.

phantom_lord

2pair on a paired board is the nuts to alot of fitz players, esp. with an op to y on a xxy board.

ianmc38

phantom_lord wrote:

2pair on a paired board is the nuts to alot of fitz players, esp. with an op to y on a xxy board.

Top pair isn't the nuts anymore? Aaaaagggghhhhhh

jbravado

mickste wrote:

Sam i'll put you out of misery. You made a good fold he had kq.

Good man Mick!!!Id convinced myself it was a horrible fold.