Advice on bet sizing with flopped nuts

Lazare

Fitz 50 holdem. Effective stacks €450

I have a pretty tight image and haven't shown one bluff.
I'm SB with AJo, six limpers and I complete.
Flop is 10sKsQc, I lead out for €6, BB folds, UTG (most solid player at table, playing pretty tight) raises to €15, I'm thinking two pair, folded to Mark (big Lithuanian or Russian guy), he calls, most likely on a spade draw with a piece of the flop, folded to me and I pot it for €75.

Is this the right play? As soon as I made the bet I thought it was the wrong move, purely because it's telegraphing my hand, and I'm forcing UTG out.

Should I be flat calling there to keep UTG in, or should I be worried about the spade draw?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

potting with the nuts? what u at???




on reflection, any raise is gonna be treated the same, so you might as well pot it, esp since there's so little in the middle anyway.

Lazare

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I think you can gamble on the flush not completing on the turn and flatcall. If it doesn't, and UTG has two pair - you are liable to win a very big pot as it will look like you were drawing to spades yourself.
QUOTE]


This would've been the most profitable line.

I think a raise to €45 would've had the same result as popping it though in this spot, UTG was solid and well capable of laying two pair down there.

valor

I play it the same. I might make it 55 or 60 but 75 is fine, I never call here

Lazare

phantom_lord wrote:

potting with the nuts? what u at???



I probably wouldn't raise that much, but it's not terrible in that game.[/QUOTE]


The rest of the hand is irrellevent to the advice I'm looking for, but I did get a call from Mark, and another €100 on the turn, but Lloyd's line would've netted me a bigger pot I think.

RoundTower

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I think you can gamble on the flush not completing on the turn and flatcall. If it doesn't, and UTG has two pair - you are liable to win a very big pot as it will look like you were drawing to spades yourself. If the flush completes, or the board pairs and you are left with big action before you on the turn then the gamble will have failed - and you will need to fold silently cursing yourself.

That said, potting it here in that game is never awful as two pair will follow you to the ends of the earth a lot of the time.

EDIT: A re - raise to 45 is maybe ideal if you want to bet. Better than potting it anyway.

The pot is so small and the stacks are so big, you really need to build a big pot here. If you just call the raise and what - check the turn? bet the turn? - you are less likely to stack 2 pair or KJ or something. I would have led for pot or nearly pot. As played the big reraise is fine,the way you describe UTG he could easily have a set and will call all bets.

also all the obvious dangers, that you get outrun or a scare card comes and you get no more action.

sikes

you cant call on the flop. you have to raise, we are oop.

id bet pretty close to the pot.

Lazare

RoundTower wrote:

The pot is so small and the stacks are so big, you really need to build a big pot here. If you just call the raise and what - check the turn? bet the turn? - you are less likely to stack 2 pair or KJ or something. I would have led for pot or nearly pot. As played the big reraise is fine,the way you describe UTG he could easily have a set and will call all bets.

also all the obvious dangers, that you get outrun or a scare card comes and you get no more action.

If my read is correct and UTG is holding two pair, and by my flat call he's putting me on a draw (he did see me bet my draws), he's surely gonna pot a blank turn, giving me position, no?

valor

also, I dislike your flop bet, bet the pot

Lazare

valor wrote:

also, I dislike your flop bet, bet the pot

I agree generally, but UTG was pretty tight, I was confident he'd have a piece of this flop and I wanted to appear as weak as possible, also I had made a similar bet on a draw earlier which was showndown.*

This is precisely the reason why I think my re-raise was bad here.

sikes

the hand is 3way. if they both fold so be it. But the times that they also have a big hand and you get it all in on the flop, will certainly be greater value to you than the times that they both fold and you just pick up the pot.

but you cant give two people free cards, potentially, to take this pot away from you

RoundTower

Lazare wrote:

I agree generally, but UTG was pretty tight, I was confident he'd have a piece of this flop and I wanted to appear as weak as possible, also I had made a similar bet on a draw earlier which was showndown.*

This is precisely the reason why I think my re-raise was bad here.

what stage did you decide UTG had 2 pair? once he limped preflop? once he raised to 15? or once he folded to the 75 and later told you he laid down 2 pair because you were playing so tight? Because your explanation makes no sense.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Lazare

RoundTower wrote:

what stage did you decide UTG had 2 pair? once he limped preflop? once he raised to 15? or once he folded to the 75 and later told you he laid down 2 pair because you were playing so tight? Because your explanation makes no sense.

I figured he's not raising into five players with anything less, there was a lot of action at this table, and he was the only nit involved.

RoundTower

Lazare wrote:

I figured he's not raising into five players with anything less, there was a lot of action at this table, and he was the only nit involved.

well you said

Lazare wrote:

I agree generally [with leading bigger] but UTG was pretty tight, I was confident he'd have a piece of this flop and I wanted to appear as weak as possible,

why were you thinking UTG must be strong, he must have hit that flop when you decided to bet €6? Why not think about all the other loose players in the hand who would give you action with so much less?

And when he does raise, yes, maybe you can expect him to drop 2 pair to the 3 bet, but he might have a set (people do limp those hands first in) or the smaller straight. Those are hands that will play with you. And the other guy has already called a bet and a raise, he is never folding for just one more raise.

Lazare

RoundTower wrote:

well you said



why were you thinking UTG must be strong, he must have hit that flop when you decided to bet €6? Why not think about all the other loose players in the hand who would give you action with so much less?

And when he does raise, yes, maybe you can expect him to drop 2 pair to the 3 bet, but he might have a set (people do limp those hands first in) or the smaller straight. Those are hands that will play with you. And the other guy has already called a bet and a raise, he is never folding for just one more raise.

I suppose I was wrong to just focus on UTG, but there were two others I felt would tag along regardless.

With regard to my 3 bet, you reckon it's always the correct play in this spot?

RoundTower

Lazare wrote:

I suppose I was wrong to just focus on UTG, but there were two others I felt would tag along regardless.

With regard to my 3 bet, you reckon it's always the correct play in this spot?

more or less

Marq

valor wrote:

also, I dislike your flop bet, bet the pot

.

Marq

Also, as played:

If you have one player on a flush draw and one on two pair/set, then reraise the pot. Don't worry about making a "value" raise, you'll achieve the same by raising the maximum and you will be giving the drawing hands incorrect odds to call. this is the fitz afterall. Marcus will definitely call your full raise here if he has a flush draw, and everyone should if the other guy calls.

fuzzbox

Lazare wrote:

I agree generally, but UTG was pretty tight, I was confident he'd have a piece of this flop and I wanted to appear as weak as possible,

Betting, from the 1st position, into a reasonably large field .... does not make you appear weak.