Croke Park

K-9

I got this on an email thought it might give some people an insight into why many members of the GAA do not wish to see Croke Park opened up to other organisations.

"Some guy wrote this into the London Times today. Surprised they published it.

Scotland weren’t much better than a Guinness Premiership or Magners League team, but you can only beat what is put in front of you, and Saturday represents a very good start. Ireland may well be missing Brian O’Driscoll as well as Shane Horgan and don’t have the resources in depth to overcome such losses. However neither will England have the armoured cars and machine guns they had the last time they entered Croke Park! -Frank Schnittger, Wicklow, Ireland."

This may well be a subtle dig at England rather than an ill advised joke. I fully agreed to the opening of Croke Park and had no problem with it. It seems alot of the English press and management are not informed of the full significance of the Venue. The management when asked at a press conference recently did not understand why they were being asked these questions. Hopefully some advisor can brief them on it. Actually maybe not, it Just makes u want Ireland to win even more!

Singing the national anthem in Croke Park on All Ireland final is a very special thing. Maybe the players and supporters can use these type of comments to motivate them and make it even more special.

davyjose

I personally think let sleeping dogs lie. It's a sporting occasion, and I think trawling up old events is needless. Why should the English Rugby Team be aware of what some soldiers from their country (as well as the RIC) did nearly ninety years ago? And certainly why should they feel any degree of responsibility?
GSTQ will be enough to get the Irish backs-up A must-win game if ever there was one.

Ponster

^^

Everything that he said.

The guy has just rewritten a text-joke that being going around now for a while and made it look like his own.

Diamondmaker

This is such an Irish thing I hate.
This happpened nearly a century ago, the world was a different place.
Nowa day s the UK are on of our closest economic and social partners.
We all have english friends, family and support and love english culture from music to sport.
100 year old politics has no place in modern sport.
so way off topic, sorry!

K-9

I don't have a problem with it, personally. Ponster this could well be a joke that was around but there will be people who don't realise that. You could turn this on its head and say its actually more a joke on the English! There was more recent historical reasons for the opposition as well. Without going into specifics the Northern counties especially opposed the opening. Anyway that argument thank God is over. People should remember the English team coming over in the early seventies when the other teams in the 5 nations didn't.

Anyway back on topic I hope there isn't going to be another Martin Johnson episode!

mr_angry

As an aside, presumably no national anthems will be sung this time around, as I'd imagine "Ireland's Call" and "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" will be belting out instead. I'd say that some of the Croke faithful wouldn't have appreciated "God Save The Queen" ringing through the stadium.

As a country, while we shouldn't forget our heritage, I think the sign of a truely great nation would be to get over the past, welcome the English rugby team, and treat them with respect. Sadly, I don't know if that's really going to be the case, but I'm hopeful it can be.

RuggieBear

Frank....Another moron who's grasp of irish history is based on a Hollywood movie.:rolleyes:

Amz

He has a German sirname, might not be Irish history that has his back up

Diamondmaker

mr_angry wrote:

I'd say that some of the Croke faithful wouldn't have appreciated "God Save The Queen" ringing through the stadium.
QUOTE]

Thats exactly it...why the Hell not. They sing it in every other place in the world they play!
Why is Ire different? were not the only country with a bit of anti Brit History..............Far far from it. What does it say about us.

Stupid Dinosaurs !

thirdmantackle

that massacre with the armoured cars is part of the Stadium's history. To ignore it is to strip away part of the place. somebody should explain to the English rugby folk as to why the stadium is different to most other venues - history

the fact that one of the stands is named after a player killed that day shows the signifigance that it still has

while I don't want to dwell on past history, to any GAA person the history of Croke Park is very important. The games, the players the incidents. To forget that is to forget our heritage

RuggieBear

Oh Sweet jesus. Are you serious!!!?

Listen. Go read up what actually happened. Come back and tell me exactly what role the armoured cars played?

****ing hollywood...

Diamondmaker

I dont think anyone is suggesting to forget the history but more that history should not dictate what we do in the presant.

Not singing the Eng anthem keeps the memory of this history alive in a negative light. Especially when, lets face it, most people will not really know the history and only see tha act as small mindedness.

There are many more positive way to keep the memory alive than to deny normal, gentlemanly, international sporting protocol.

(I know that last line opens me up to attacks on MJ and our anthem in Lansdowne some years ago but we will never really know 100% why that was done, but we do know it was not for historic reasons.)

davyjose

thirdmantackle wrote:

that massacre with the armoured cars is part of the Stadium's history. To ignore it is to strip away part of the place. somebody should explain to the English rugby folk as to why the stadium is different to most other venues - history

the fact that one of the stands is named after a player killed that day shows the signifigance that it still has

while I don't want to dwell on past history, to any GAA person the history of Croke Park is very important. The games, the players the incidents. To forget that is to forget our heritage

What armoured cars? There weren't any armoured cars at Croke Park.
I agree that history is important in every regard, but that is what it is - history. The simple fact is that any conflict that we had with the British in the past, no longer exists. So move on. Believe it or not, but Ireland and England aren't the only country ever to be at loggerheads. So tell me, if the rest of the world had the same attitude of those who still want to trawl up something that happened ninety years ago, would we have an EU? No. Would you have lots of shiny, convenient little gadgets in your house or on your possesion with SONY or PANASONIC on them? No. So why can't we have a game of bloody rugby without people throwing their toys out of the pram?

jackbhoy

thirdmantackle wrote:

that massacre with the armoured cars is part of the Stadium's history. To ignore it is to strip away part of the place. somebody should explain to the English rugby folk as to why the stadium is different to most other venues - history

the fact that one of the stands is named after a player killed that day shows the signifigance that it still has

while I don't want to dwell on past history, to any GAA person the history of Croke Park is very important. The games, the players the incidents. To forget that is to forget our heritage

Armoured cars never went anywhere near the pitch so the bit with Hogan kicking the ball over the car to score a pint and then getting shot is just a myth that made good scene for movie. The troops came in on foot looking for revenge after MC and his lads mudered 14 (i think) British Intelligence agents, and fired indiscriminatly into the crowd.
While I agree this is a very important part of the States and Croke Parks history and one in a long line of atrocities committed , it will show how we've matured and developed as a nation if we can welcome England to Croke Park and respect their national anthem and then going on to kick there asses!!!

thirdmantackle

the Tans came down to the ground in armoured cars, scaled the walls and started shooting

nobody should disrespect an anthem or flag.

remember when the soccer crowd booed an ex Rangers player off the field at Landsdowne - now that is bigotry

davyjose

don't forget to include OUR own police force, whom, it is claimed, done most of the shooting

Diamondmaker

The exact details of what happened are irrelevant.

What is important is that the memory and history is remebered and respected.

At no point in remebering and respecting this memory, does forbidding a Sporting nations anthem to be played as per every other venue, this part seems petty.

davyjose

Exactly

Ponster

thirdmantackle wrote:

the Tans came down to the ground in armoured cars, scaled the walls and started shooting

I thought that they were dropped by B-52s and sprayed the crowd with acid ?

Have I been wrong all these years?

While I agree this is a very important part of the States and Croke Parks history and one in a long line of atrocities committed , it will show how we've matured and developed as a nation if we can welcome England to Croke Park and respect their national anthem and then going on to kick there asses!!!

exactly. I couldn't care less what they sign as long as we win

K-9

I think I might have been duped by this email! Doh! But the thread does show there are sensitivities, rightly or wrongly.

The main opposition (30%) was from Northern counties, Cork and a few others. It didn't have so much to do with Armoured cars etc. more the Northern situation. Don't want to go into too much detail on it. This one is just too ridiculous not to mention. Local club wanted to put a GAA pitch in Portadown. Council said yes as long as u put a 30 foot wall around it and don't play on Sundays! Hilarious if it wasn't true. Anyway all thats in the past and thats why Croke Park is open. God Save the Queen will irk abit but thats only because its Ireland v. England.

Politics unfortunately does come into it. THats why theres Irelands call.

I would say the advisors will have informed the English set up on the significance now so no Martin Johnson incidents!

Gaelic Grounds should have been opened as well if Munster had a home QF in the Heineken Cup. 4 grounds can hold over 40,000 in Munster yet they wouldn't let Rugby in.

damnyanks

While I don't see any point in bringing up past history in which no parties involved had any dealings I do know its not one sided. I've been in the UK for 3 years now, they definetly like to bring up the past. Be it their fights with napolean (sp) or how the irish bombed them and so on.

All in all its a people thing. Not an Irish thing.

davyjose

That's why the French have never played in Wembley? Oh wait ... they have!

Sangre

I assume England will be singing their national anthem. I be disgusted if they didn't.

K-9

Me to. Hope ours can be played as well along with Ireland's call. Respect every country and culture including our own.

damnyanks

Aren't the GAA charging through the nose to host these games? If so I doubt they really care about the antehms.

thirdmantackle

nope

GAA making 1.3 million or something - and why shouldn't they. They own the stadium

IRFU making 3-4 million per game

shedseven

England should be given the same respect as any other 'away' side at Croke Park. God Save The Queen must be played. Imagine if the RFU refused to play Argentina's national anthem or the FA refused to play the German anthem at Wembley? It would be disrespectful.

RtD

Agreed, GSTQ should be played and no doubt will be as it is the English national anthem. The team and their fans will be there to represent England in a sporting contest not a political one, regardless of the venue.
Amhrán na bhFiann should not be played as the Irish national anthem, it is the Republics national anthem. The only way it could be justifiably be played as such is if the Derry Air is also played to acknowledge that the team represents the Island, spanning two countries, rather than just south of the border. Indeed, as GSTQ is also the UK's anthem, it wouldn't be unjustifiable for one or two of the Ulster boys to request that it be played for them to recognise their part in the Irish team!
Of course I would never suggest this would happen, it's all just a case of ifs, buts and technicalities. Ireland's Call, although I'm not a big fan of the song itself, represents a sensible compromise to the ambiguity and it's this along with GSTQ the I hope and expect to be the songs played. Perhaps the presidential salute, an extract of A n bhF, should she be present at the match. If A n bhF is to be played it is only to acknowledge which country the match is being played in.

As an aside, the die hard sentimentalists of the GAA should be pleased from a historical point of view that their is a team representing the 32 counties in an international competition, sharing the same ignorance of the political border that the GAA does.

Crash

I have no problems provided the english team treat the ground with respect and the crowd treat the english team with the same. once those happen, i'm well happy.

Amhrán na bhFiann should not be played as the Irish national anthem, it is the Republics national anthem.......If A n bhF is to be played it is only to acknowledge which country the match is being played in.

eh, Amhrán na bhfiann is NEVER played as the republics national anthem at rugby matches, its played as the host countries national anthem. hence why its not played abroad.

markf909

eh, Amhrán na bhfiann is NEVER played as the republics national anthem at rugby matches, its played as the host countries national anthem. hence why its not played abroad.

Well hopefully GSTQ will be played in Ravenhill then this August when Ireland play Italy in a full international.

Diamondmaker

Touche....very interesting.

K-9

And maybe GSTQ at Casement Park to or Celtic Park. Would go down well! Seriously there are elements of England that misuse GSTQ. Soccer matches spring to mind but thats not representative of all English culture so it has to be respected for being a countries anthem and identity. A na Bhf can be misrepresented at Celtic v. Rangers were they sing it in English! It's still part of our identity especially when we're a host nation. Ireland's call represents another tradition and has to be respected. Where do u end. Derry Air, Sean South, Men behind the wire etc etc. The 3 anthems is a good compromise. The Tricolor is about peace between both traditions.

Most GAA fans actually do prefer Rugby at Croke Park rather than soccer. Dermot Aherne made moves recently for a 32 county team but the silence from the clubs in the North (not the fans) was deafening. After Wednes we need it more than the North does!

Ken Maginnis in the Times said he loves to see England being beaten. It's part of being Irish, no matter what culture!

davyjose

markf909 wrote:

Well hopefully GSTQ will be played in Ravenhill then this August when Ireland play Italy in a full international.

Is GSTQ the British Anthem, or English - Scotland and Wales do not play GSTQ, so would it be apt for a Northern Ireland based match to do so? Especially considering at least half the population of Northern Ireland would not recognise this as their anthem.

Sangre

At least half? I think democracy disagrees with you there davyjose

davyjose

Sangre wrote:

At least half? I think democracy disagrees with you there davyjose

I don't know the exact ratio of Nationalists to Unionists in the North but it wouldn't be massively far off 50:50

nodger

thirdmantackle wrote:

the Tans came down to the ground in armoured cars, scaled the walls and started shooting

Weren't the majority of the Black and Tans from Scotland anyway?

thirdmantackle wrote:

remember when the soccer crowd booed an ex Rangers player off the field at Landsdowne - now that is bigotry

Not just bigotry, but stupidity. Although it was announced that Peter Lovenkrands was coming on as a substitute, Peter Madsen came on instead. The crowd apparently didn't notice this, and proceeded to boo Madsen every time he touched the ball. Lovenkrands did come on later on, so they booed him too.

gerire

I look forward to both games in croke park. I have no doubt that English fans will be informed of the history of the stadium by the one or 2 muppets that arrive outside to protest with banners and posters etc.

I have heard other foreign national anthems at foregin sports, american football and nothing was said about that. Enjoy the occassion and listen to the foreign comentators rave on about our fantastic stadium

Jilm

I was in the Davin stand (canal end) ...before the match I was worried the view would be shíte ...but it was fúckin' outstanding.

Despite the loss, the experience was great for myself and the old man - who previously said he would never set foot in the place again after Limerick losing the AllIreland Hurling final to Offaly sooo many years ago.

Flukey

I taped the BBC coverage today, to see what they'd say about it. Beamed across homes in Britain and beyond today were images of Gaelic Football and Hurling, and much of its history and the significance of today. They spoke about 1916, 1920, Michael Hogan and other such things. Many would have seen all that for the first time. To those that were afraid that the GAA were promoting "their" games, in fact the "Brits" were promoting "our" games! It was great promotion for Gaelic games and Croke Park. People all over the world were watching it too. My brother was watching it today in the Caribbean and there would be many seeing Gaelic Games and hearing about the GAA for the first time. A great day. I'd love to have been there.

K-9

Flukey - Have to agree Beeb coverage was excellent especially how they said alot people wouldn't even knew it existed. I don't think they believed there was a 82,000 capacity stadium here! Austin Healy couldn't believe the noise for the try. 3rd biggest stadium in Europe tho I read in the Tribune it's 5th. Largeest Amateur sporting stadium outside US.As a regular visitor to Croke Park sometimes I forgot just what an achievement Croker is and maybe take it for granted. Look at the shambles Wembley is. Today, Brought back that wow factor when I first saw it. Alot of opposition to the opening was against the FAI more than the IRFU.

Basically the opinion was we built this stadium by our own. When the plans were announced in the early 90's govt. assistance wasn't looked for but i suppose was expected. Alot of the papers joked about the Corporate Boxes and how could the GAA sell them. Well they paid for the Cusack stand alone. They said it would cost a fortune which it did and would never be realised. I could be wrong but it's nearly paid for now.This was planned before any Celtic Tiger, Construction Boom. The FAI, a professional org. couldn't build there own.

Jilm - I knew a fella from Limerick who house shared with me at that time. I never seen anybody as shocked after a match as him. He's probably still in it. The team seems to be anyway! I find the Davin Stand excellent. It's usually the family area for the GAA matches and u get a great view. Better than upstairs in the Hogan or Cusack. I think thats about the only criticism I'd have of Croker. U'r very far away at the top but I suppose that's why it holds 82,000. Always found the stewards and organisation excellent.

I would loved to have been there. The atmosphere sounded unique. At the Ga matches its usually 50/50 roughly support or less if its a double header. The Noise Level with I'd say 70,000 Irish shouting for one team seemed awesome.

The GAA has it's critics. U hear so much from Ga people about Croker I know, but today showed how Croker truely is a credit to them and their ambition.

One last bit. The GAA announced if u keep Marty Morrissey for the rugby coverage and not let him back on the Sunday Game they'll knock 100,000 of the fee! I thought the preview on RTE must have been written by the GAA Assimilator from Apres Match.

Jilm

Seanies32 wrote:

I find the Davin Stand excellent. It's usually the family area for the GAA matches and u get a great view.

After the game, it was a reasonably swift exit from croker. The only prob was the booze stand in the upper Davin - massive queues, half the pumps weren't manned.

K-9

Tod u we have to keep our traditions and cultures alive and respect them. Drink being No.1! They should know better in Croker! I blame Marty Morrissey

Webbs

For those who have been following Ireland around the globe, how does Croker compare to other venues, and I mean as a package not necessarily just on size?

daveirl

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