New Subaru diesel

pburns

2.0 litre, 165bhp. Boxer engine so usual low centre of gravity. Benchmarked against BMW 2.0d. It all sounds very, very good...

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/first_official_picture.php?sid=457&page=1

peasant

I wonder, is that a common rail diesel? Must be a nightmare to realise that with the two opposing cylinder heads...or even worse, trying to syncronise to force-fed injection systems at either side ...

Lex Luthor

excellent news. Should see a lot more subarus here in the next few years....

one of those legacys could find its way on my drive after me 156 has kicked the bucket

E92

I don't get it. Why are all the Asian car companies investing so heavily in diesels? I was under the impression that on and from 2009 that diesels would be at least €900 (more likely €1,800 with our ridiculous VRT rates) dearer then they already are, because the new Euro V legislation is supposed to be really tough on particulates etc. Would I be right in saying that these new Bluetec diesels sold by Merc (and soon VAG) have 2 tanks: one for diesel and the other for urea aka AdBlue?

unkel

We've discussed it before but the Subaru diesel won't see the light until sometime in 2008. Very interesting a boxer diesel though. Best wait and see rather than believe the marketing boys about how good it will be when it gets here

E92 wrote:

I don't get it. Why are all the Asian car companies investing so heavily in diesels?

They weren't paying attention to the European market. They only woke up in shock a long time after the common rail revolution resulted in huge market share increases of diesel cars. To put it differently, every common man in France, Spain and Austria knew the advantages of modern diesels before the brass in Toyota, Honda, Subaru et al did

peasant

unkel wrote:

They weren't paying attention to the European market. They only woke up in shock a long time after the common rail revolution resulted in huge market share increases of diesel cars. To put it differently, every common man in France, Spain and Austria knew the advantages of modern diesels before the brass in Toyota, Honda, Subaru et al did

Some people might also start to wonder why it is that the EU is getting all strict about (diesel) particle emissions just as far eastern car makers are beginning to make inroads into the diesel market ...

E92

unkel wrote:

They weren't paying attention to the European market. They only woke up in shock a long time after the common rail revolution resulted in huge market share increases of diesel cars. To put it differently, every common man in France, Spain and Austria knew the advantages of modern diesels before the brass in Toyota, Honda, Subaru et al did

You're dead right re the French, Spanish knowing before Toyota etc but what I meant was why did it take them till now? Surely they should know whats coming down the track re EU rules etc. I just think it's stupid that Subaru are bringing a diesel in when a year or two later (the same goes for the rest of them over in Asia, it took them long enough as well to cop on), EU rules will mean that technologies like Bluetec will be mandatory and add even more to the price gap between petrol cars and diesel cars? Btw, it would appear that in the rest of the world, the Europeans haven't been paying attention to what the rest of the world wants either. Just look at the ever increasing demand for hybrids in America of all places:) ! It looks like, despite the best efforts of Merc and soon BMW and VAG, that the rest of the world believes hybrids are the answer. And they're even catching on here in Europe too:D
Just to make absolutely clear though, I do NOT really like hybrids:D

Mahatma coat

Diesels are popular because BioDiesel is the way of the future, not hybrid cars, hybrids and electric cars still require fossil fuels to generate the electricity, BioDiesel is a wholly renewable resource, once they standardise the emission particle regulations etc everything should be sweet

E92

Mahatma coat wrote:

Diesels are popular because BioDiesel is the way of the future

Is that true? Bioethanol is renewable as well isn't it, and more to the point with a bit of work the petrol engine can run on hydrogen (BMW Hydrogen7) which most certainly is the fuel of the future:D . I know its hard to say that now, but just as nobody could have ever thought that diesels could ever come close to petrols not so long ago, the same will happen with hydrogen. When they perfect it (I say when because car makers will always find a way), there won't be any need for diesel or petrol or better still hybrids and anyway why would you want your car to smell like a fast food outlet whereever it goes, since I'm reliably informed is what happens when one runs a biodiesel car:) ?

unkel

E92 wrote:

the Europeans haven't been paying attention to what the rest of the world wants either. Just look at the ever increasing demand for hybrids in America of all places:)

LOL

peasant wrote:

Some people might also start to wonder why it is that the EU is getting all strict about (diesel) particle emissions just as far eastern car makers are beginning to make inroads into the diesel market ...

Maybe post that here?

Many European manufacturers e.g. BMW have been into advanced particulate filters for many years. And it is not now that the EU is getting strict. Credit to the Americans (well, the Californians) but strictness started there (in the 70s) and was taken on in Europe later on. I'm not sure about any Japanese initiative in these matters...

JHMEG

Someone from Honda once said to me that Honda are always late to the party because they want to get it right. I presume Subaru are the same.

Honda have recently developed a diesel system clean enough for the Californian market (the 1st car maker to do so) which uses a patented plasma reactor in the exhaust system.

Compare this to VAG & Co who are squirting piss into the exhaust to try to clean it up.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/28/bloomberg/sxhonda.php

Europeans buy cars out of patriotism. The French buy Renault and Peugeot etc not because they're good, but because they're made in France. This is what Toyota and co have to put up with.

maidhc

JHMEG wrote:

Someone from Honda once said to me that Honda are always late to the party because they want to get it right. I presume Subaru are the same.

Honda diesels are supposed to be thirsty though, which if true negates their usefulness!

JHMEG

maidhc wrote:

Honda diesels are supposed to be thirsty though, which if true negates their usefulness!

It's the 16:1 compression ratio that makes them different. Doesn't sound like there's a bag of spanners under the bonnet... And the lack of piss squirting.

Mahatma coat

E92 wrote:

Is that true? Bioethanol is renewable as well isn't it, and more to the point with a bit of work the petrol engine can run on hydrogen (BMW Hydrogen7) which most certainly is the fuel of the future:D . I know its hard to say that now, but just as nobody could have ever thought that diesels could ever come close to petrols not so long ago, the same will happen with hydrogen. When they perfect it (I say when because car makers will always find a way), there won't be any need for diesel or petrol or better still hybrids and anyway why would you want your car to smell like a fast food outlet whereever it goes, since I'm reliably informed is what happens when one runs a biodiesel car:) ?

technicaly BioEthanol/Ethanol is also a renewable resource, however the amount of energy actualy required ( something to do with carbon credits or someother type thingy that other people understand and can explain a bit better) to produce a litre of ethanol is substantialy higher than BioDiesel, ethanol requires industrial processing plants, BioDiesel can be made at home with a bare minimum of equipment - I know, we set up a small BioDiesel unit in Bouganville PNG - and its quite effective, also my Landcruiser smells of coconut, not chippers.

unkel

JHMEG wrote:

Honda have recently developed a diesel system clean enough for the Californian market (the 1st car maker to do so)

The first car maker? You should work for Honda's marketing department

Honda's plan is to have a diesel for the Californian market for 2009

Mercedes' and BMW's plan is for 2008...

DukeDredd

unkel wrote:

They weren't paying attention to the European market. They only woke up in shock a long time after the common rail revolution resulted in huge market share increases of diesel cars. To put it differently, every common man in France, Spain and Austria knew the advantages of modern diesels before the brass in Toyota, Honda, Subaru et al did

Not sure if the reason was them not paying attention/not knowing the advantage of modern diesels. Was chatting to a Japanese friend at work last week and she was telling me that diesel cars are banned in Tokyo and in lots of other areas in Japan because of emissions - never knew this. She was of the opinion that this is the reason Japan weren't as quick on the diesel train. That and the Yanks don't want to buy them.

Slightly OT but from chatting to her it seems that the Japanese manufacturers have only the highest regard for european manufacturers. (including their diesels!). Not going to get upset anymore if they get slated on boards 'cause it wouldn't annoy even themselves!!

E92

JHMEG wrote:

Europeans buy cars out of patriotism. The French buy Renault and Peugeot etc not because they're good, but because they're made in France. This is what Toyota and co have to put up with.

The Europeans buy their own cars because European cars are better than anything else, in general. The thing about patriotism is true, almost all cars in Germany are from German companies, hardly anything from France, while in France there's acres of Citroens, Peugeots, Renaults and not as many German cars. (Though German cars are still more common than, say a Toyota etc, in my experience). But in general, any country in the continent I've been to, there are almost exclusively European cars and that's it. That kinda includes Ford too, since lets not forget Henry Ford's dad was from Cork. Ballinascarty to be precise. (A tenuous link, I know, but still its a link )
look at http://www.ford.ie/ie/heritage/htg_fib/htg_fib_1900WW2/-/-/-/- if you don't believe me;)

Going back to what I said about European cars being better than anything else, lets take a look at BMW and Toyota. BMW sell the same basic car everywhere with a couple of exceptions, oh sure there are different engines available in market X and market Y and some countries get models laden with gadets and others get models with not that much as standard and some are LHD and are RHD but these are hardly major differences now are they? Whereas with Toyota, they make models specifically each continent. In America they have the Avalon, Camry(imagine that one of the worst 'executive' cars ever, so bad they don't sell it in even in Toyota obsessed Ireland anymore, is Americas best selling car) for the US an Canada, rebadged Lexi as Toyotas for Japan till recently, have the Avensis specially for Europe and the Verso (formally known as the Corolla Verso, though Toyota Ireland still have the 'Corolla' part included) is the same story, and then Ireland becomes the only country in the EU to get the new Corolla (I'm 99% sure thats true) (if you haven't noticed it yet, that's probably because it is about as exciting as a bowl of water to look at. Actually that bowl of water might be more exciting:) ). I know that the Prius is sold everywhere and the Yaris is sold as the Vitz in Japan and they sell a few cars that are almost the same in most markets, just with different names.

My point being here, that European cars are so good they can be sold anywhere look at VAG, Merc, MINI, Volvo etc whereas the rest of them have to make cars for a continant or a region (Toyota, Nissan, GM I could go on and on but I wont:D ). They certainly don't do it to save money anyway, so it has to be because they know that they are offering inferior products compared to the Europans. Now I know that different markets want different things, hence why BMW have different specs and engines depending on where you live, but the non Europeans generally offer completely different cars by that I mean the Nissan Quahqai for Europe, the Sentra for the US (both are rivals for the VW Golf or Rabbit as its called in the US and the saloon which is based on them, the Jetta), theres not a lot at all in common between them AFAIK apart from the Nissan badge.

JHMEG

European cars are so good most makes aren't available at all in the US. Many tried to get in but the Americans stayed away in droves because of sh1te reliability. The history of Rover and the 800 in the US is one of the more illustrious examples (and this was despite the fact that Honda *handed* Rover the plans for the Legend, on which the 800 was based).

Toyotas are really bad cars, and hence by the end of 2007 they will probably be the biggest manufacturer in the world, having recently passed Ford, with only GM left to overtake. More power to them. Cream rising to the top and all that...

@unkel: Honda have patented the plasma reactor, and ok they will probably not be the first to market with a diesel in California (late to the party again), but they will be first to market with a proper solution... ie one that doesn't involve a having a 2nd tank for carrying piss.

EDIT: reading your above post E92, that's the greatest load of crepe I've ever heard. Manufacturers make different cars for different markets because of varying tastes. To make a "world car" it must be seriously compromised (eg 92-99 Opel Corsa, voted the worst handling car ever made, and GM concurred!) or be able to sell on badge alone, eg BMW/Merc (and may also be compromised but the badge is enough to carry it).

Me suspects with your sweeping statements like "European cars are better than anything else" that you are trolling.

maidhc

JHMEG wrote:

@unkel: Honda have patented the plasma reactor, and ok they will probably not be the first to market with a diesel in California, but they will be first to market with a proper solution... ie one that doesn't involve a having a 2nd tank for carrying piss.

Still, the piss you refer to seems to be a simple solution a problem. Sometimes simple solutions are best.

E92

JHMEG wrote:

European cars are so good most makes aren't available at all in the US. Many tried to get in but the Americans stayed away in droves because of sh1te reliability. The history of the Rover and the 800 in the US is one of the more illustrious examples.

Of course they did, it's a Rover....need I say more? Europeans make the best, not the most reliable

JHMEG wrote:

Toyotas are really bad cars, and hence by the end of 2007 they will probably be the biggest manufacturer in the world, having recently passed Ford, with only GM left to overtake.

Toyota's aren't bad at all, if all you want is a car to go from a to b and never ever go wrong, they're great. But if you want anything that might raise you pulse, even once if the years you own it, they're not with a couple of exceptions. (Supra, Celica, MR2 even the current Yaris and Avensis are quite nice) Things have improved hugely, the current Avensis is very nice if incredibly unmemorable, as was the old Corolla as in the one that was there from '02 till '06, same goes for the Aygo that even manages to look good(shock & horror for Toyota), and Yaris is quite nice as well. But thats all they are, nice cars. Nothing about them to get even remotely excited about, they're just middle of the road.

Biro

maidhc wrote:

Honda diesels are supposed to be thirsty though, which if true negates their usefulness!

You mean the Honda diesel! There's only one. Not that thirsty, maybe compared to the most frugal diesels, but not compared to petrols.

How come aswell that no one is making a diesel hybrid? Are they waiting till people get bored of the petrol ones? Wouldn't it look great for the eco-friendly, a hybrid with the combustion engine burning biodiesel?!?

@E92 - you're talking crap. BMW and Mercedes are in the luxury sector, and really should only be compared with lexus. As for the rest, don't see how a jetta diesel for example would be better than a cheaper, more powerful, better equiped, more reliable and better handling Mazda 3 diesel saloon.
Euro have some good cars, Asia has some good cars, America has some (though proportionatly less!) good cars. Don't generalise. If Ireland had a car manufacturer, a lot of Irish would buy it. So far as I know, there's a tax break on anything home grown in France, thats why peugeots, citroen and renaults would be cheaper compared to the competition than in other countries.
I remember touring around france and noting that 2nd hand Toyotas were as dear as Ireland, where as a brand new 406 coupe had a €21k price tag on it.

Villain

This looks interesting, I drive a Legacy RX 2.5 and I certainly would like to have the option of an Diesel.

Mahatma coat

Biro wrote:

You mean the
How come aswell that no one is making a diesel hybrid? Are they waiting till people get bored of the petrol ones? Wouldn't it look great for the eco-friendly, a hybrid with the combustion engine burning biodiesel?!?

.

after a quick google it would seem that Citroen have a functioning diesel hybrid in the showrooms and GM and Nissan have announced them

E92

Mahatma coat wrote:

after a quick google it would seem that Citroen have a functioning diesel hybrid in the showrooms and GM and Nissan have announced them

Citroen and Peugeot have the C4 and 307 Hybride HDi, but these are demo vehicles. Hybrid diesels will be on sale in three years time from them. http://www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com/en/psa_group/engines_b3.php
The only diesel hybrids by GM are for its buses http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/300_hybrids/index_hybrid_news.html Their hybrids for cars, and I presume thats what you meant when you were talking about GM, are all petrol(at the moment anyway, and I couldn't find anything on their site about diesel hybrid cars). I know that a couple of years ago that GM had the Opel Astra diesel Hybrid in some American motorshow (can't remember which one), and they said at the time their plan was to make diesel hybrids, but AFAIK they changed their mind when they realised only Europe would want diesel hybrids and the rest of the world wanted petrol hybids. Petrol hybrids are doing surprisingly well in Europe too (too well IMHO, I don't like hybrids whether they're Petrol or Diesel because they're the greatest con job ever IMO, but since they're loved by the greenies, maybe we shouldn't be so dismissive of hybrids because its one less thing for them to knock the car for). In relation to Hybrids, the Europeans weren't awake on it, that's why it won't be anytime too soon before hybrids will be on sale by them. PSA in 2010, Merc, BMW, VAG have 'plans' for hybrids(Audi Q7 is designed so that it can have a hybrid in time to come if needs be)(BMW refused to invest in them at all till recently, hence why their hybrid(if it ever comes) shares the same technology as their arch rival Merc) and even then these will be petrol for VAG and BMW and petrol/diesel for Merc (the S-class can have a hybrid in needs be too) Nissan's hybrids at present use technology borrowed under licence from Toyota. That will change soon; they are investing in their own system, which will persumably be found in Renaults as well in time to come.

JHMEG wrote:

E92 - you're talking crap. BMW and Mercedes are in the luxury sector, and really should only be compared with lexus. As for the rest, don't see how a jetta diesel for example would be better than a cheaper, more powerful, better equiped, more reliable and better handling Mazda 3 diesel saloon.
Euro have some good cars, Asia has some good cars, America has some (though proportionatly less!) good cars. Don't generalise. If Ireland had a car manufacturer, a lot of Irish would buy it. So far as I know, there's a tax break on anything home grown in France, thats why peugeots, citroen and renaults would be cheaper compared to the competition than in other countries.
I remember touring around france and noting that 2nd hand Toyotas were as dear as Ireland, where as a brand new 406 coupe had a €21k price tag on it.

No offence, but my parents have owned Toyotas since before I was born; they have had 2 Corolla V(mid 80's Corolla) 2 Corolla VI(87-92 Corolla), a Carina E, and now an Avensis(03 to present version), which as I said before is a car I like, apart from the fact it's so dull. We've also had(briefly) the Corolla IX(02 to 06 Corolla), and relations and friends of ours have or had the Corolla VII (93-97 Corolla), Corolla VIII(98 to 02 Corolla) both types of Yaris, Aygo, Land Cruiser, Celica,MR2,and having been in all of them one time or another, I think I'm well capable and entitled to say what I think about Toyotas, thank you very much:) .
A tax break supporting your own crowd would surely against EU rules, since it would be against the movement of goods around the common market and all that; assuming you mean that the French charge a higher rate of tax on 'imports', when cars are being sold new. If you mean that the French give their own industry tax breaks for setting up new factories and things like that, then theres nothing wrong with that, as long as they gave Toyota similar tax breaks when they built their ED2 facility in France(or other type things for other non French companies). I could be wrong on that, but I do think it would be odd if the French were allowed to favour their own(EU rules and all that).

I'm sorry for implying that only Europe makes good cars. Some are appaling, that Opel Corsa from '92 to '00 was pretty poor alright, there are others, I'm thinking of most Rovers, I've little time for a lot of French cars,(with exceptions like the Clio Williams, 205 GTi, Clio V6, 306 GTi-6 and a couple of others), (though you'll note they're only sold in Europe:D ), Fiats, and any Seat I was in before they were taken over by VW was truely awful (anyone remember the'Porsche engineered' Ibiza before 93??. Holy Christ it was bad). Even BMW make bad cars from time to time; the E60 5series is about the only BMW that was worse than the model it replaced, along with the E65/66 7 series(hate the thing), the Z4 looks pretty awful;the X3 (a disaster, how many BMWs had to be facelifted only 2 years into their life cycle? It took them 5 years before they decided to facelift the E39(5 series), E53(old X5), 4 years for the E46 3 series. If we take Japan, sure they've nice cars, the Mitsubishi Evos, all the different Imprezas with a turbo, the Celica, Supra, MR2 were nice,so are the new Honda Civic, Nissan Skyline, Honda NSX nice cars, but the vast majority of Japmobiles are rubbish. Any yes I've been in more than my fair share of japmobiles (other than Toyotas:) )
Moving to America, i'm struggling to think of any good car from that part of the world. I realise that you did say they do have a significantly smaller proportion of good cars,so I'm not moaning and groaning at you when I say what I'm going to say here.:)Yes they make lovely sounding V8's,and they can go very fast in a straight line, but have they ever given us a good car??? Oh, wait,I've just thought of good American cars. Fords. But, they're of Irish, therefore European origins. So can't really include them, sorry. Btw, if the Irish were so patriotic, why did Toyota have 14.2% of the market while Ford had 11.3% of the market in the period 1/1 to 31/10 in 2006? http://simi.ie/Files/stats/statspressrel2006.xls I know Fords are primaraly American, but of Irish(European) origin:) , and thats as close as we have to our 'own' car company.
All the Fords that were truely American like the Crown Victoria, Escort(nothing at all to do with the Escort sold here), Taurus were crap. Anytime an American Ford was brought over (second generation Maverick, [the one thats almost the same as the Mazda Tribute], Cougar(badged as Mercury over there), which I actually liked surprisingly enough, it had a nice sounding V6, Explorer it was a flop. Whereas when a european designed Ford was sold outside of Europe, it did quite well(they sold 200,000 of the old Focus per annum in the US).Now I know someone will tell me that 'they don't sell the current Focus over there, do they?' , which I know is true. Why they don't is a very good question indeed. They still sell the old Focus over there. Perhaps if they did they mightn't have lost $12.7 bn last year. Now I'm not stupid enough to think that if they did sell the current Focus over there, they would have made a profit, or anything even remotely close to it, but to me it makes absolutely no sense to sell in developed countries, the new model here and the old one there. Whats the point in developing a new car and then still selling the old one, particularly when the new one's chassis is offered in the form of the Volvo S40/V50 / Mazda 3 to the Americans anyway? It puzzels me all the time why they don't bring the new Focus to the US. It also puzzels me why Ford brings a car to the US based on the Mazda 6(not sure if it's European designed though:) ) called the Fusion, which is not to be confused with the Fusion sold here that's based on the Fiesta, and then has a completely different car, the Mondeo for the Europeans.(The 6 and soon to be replaced Mondeo have nothing in common) Surely the next Volvo S60, Mazda6,US model Fusion, along with the next Lincoln MKS will share the same chassis with the new Mondeo?(I think the Volvo S80 and V70 are based on the S-MAX and Galaxy, with which the new Mondeo shares its chassis)

You said that different markets have different tasts. Naturally thats true. Cars like the S-MAX are only popular in Europe. Same goes for Europeans love of hatchbacks. (Thats why BMW doesn't sell its 1 series in America/ Canada/China ) But there are some types of car that sell everywhere, Focus size, Mondeo size, 3 series type, 5 series type, 7 series type cars. Posh SUVs sell in most places too. When the Europeans sell cars of these type globally, they sell essentially the same car everywhere. When the non Europeans do it, generally they don't. Nissan have the sentra for America, and Quahqai for Europe. VW sell the Golf aka Rabbit or the Jetta. The Honda Civic sold in America is different to the Honda Civic sold in Japan and in Europe(different dashes for a start and different mechanicals I believe), and no I don't mean we get hatches and they get saloons. The Corolla/ Auris is different mechanically for different regions(Different chassis set up, different interiors).
The Nissan Primera is only sold in Europe and Japan I believe. To be fair, I know that Mazda sell almost the same cars eveerywhere, and most of the Japs are now selling more and more of their cars the same across the world. What I should more accurately have said is that the Americans in particular and some Japanese companies are very guilty of offering completely different cars to compete against the same European and to a certain extent other Japanese cars for each region:D

E92

Btw, I should mention that I can't wait to see how this new diesel will get on in Europe, and who knows, if the 335d goes down well in the US and other places, there might be a lot more Flat Four diesels in the world.:)

Biro

@ E92 - you are fond of waffling on... and to be fair, there are some valid points in there, but Ford are Irish? What a load of crap. Henry Ford was a yank. Doesn't matter where his old man was from.

maidhc

Biro wrote:

@ E92 - you are fond of waffling on... and to be fair, there are some valid points in there, but Ford are Irish? What a load of crap. Henry Ford was a yank. Doesn't matter where his old man was from.

He was a yank without doubt. Very much of the Irish American genre though. Cork wasn't an economic decision, but a patriotic one. Uncle Henry was like that though, his foray into building tractors had nothing do sound business decisions either, but the little Fordson changed the way farmers worked across the world.

I like Henry.

E92

Biro wrote:

@ E92 - you are fond of waffling on... and to be fair, there are some valid points in there, but Ford are Irish? What a load of crap. Henry Ford was a yank. Doesn't matter where his old man was from.

I never said Fords were Irish, I just said that they have Irish connections. As you said yourself, Henry Ford's old man was Irish. Henry Ford I know was born in America.
Any American born of Irish parents/grandparents etc will say they're Irish-American, in the same way we have African American, French Canadian and so on. Theres no point in saying it doesn't matter where your old man is from IMO.So all I'm trying to say is theres no point in saying that Fords are Irish. They're not. Similarly theres no point in saying that Fords are American. Rather they are Americans with an Irish connection.:)

Biro

Fords are american. Designed in America by Americans. Built by Americans. End of story.
You still haven't proved that euro cars are better than the equivalent jap car.

Mahatma coat

Actualy ford are a prime example of globalisation, yes the Parent company is in America, but the Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, Transit, Ka, are designed and built in europe, the Falcon car and Ute, and the Courier Ute are designed and built in Australia (the new Falcons use Gerarboxes from Germany) the Taurus and the F-Trucks are done in the states.

I would consider them different entities meself, all functioning under the umbrella of FoMoCo

alias no.9

E92 wrote:

but the non Europeans generally offer completely different cars by that I mean the Nissan Quahqai for Europe, the Sentra for the US (both are rivals for the VW Golf or Rabbit as its called in the US and the saloon which is based on them, the Jetta), theres not a lot at all in common between them AFAIK apart from the Nissan badge.

I think you'll find they have more in common than you think considering they they both share their underpinnings with the renault megane.

E92

alias no.9 wrote:

I think you'll find they have more in common than you think considering they they both share their underpinnings with the renault megane.

Well you learn something new everyday. I knew the Qashqai was based on the Mégane, but didn't realise the Sentra. Obviously, things are changing then faster than I thought....

Biro wrote:

Fords are american. Designed in America by Americans. Built by Americans. End of story.

We'll agree to differ on the first one. I respect your view on it and I've said what I think about it, so I don't see the need to say anymore about that.You're completely wrong on the second one. European Fords have been designed and built for as long as I can remember in Europe. They were even built about a mile away from where I live for Christs sake! The Ford Falcon is built in Autsrailia. The Fiesta is built in Spain. The Mondeo is built in Belgium. Ford's diesels are built in the UK. Yes, US Fords are built there, though not necessarily desingned there. The Five Hundred is based on the Volvo S80(Though it kinda looks like the current Mondeo inside). The Fusion is based on the Mazda6. The Focus for the US was designed in Europe, though built over there. Their next Focus looks completely different from our one(and looks a lot cheaper than our one inside), that definately was not designed for here. I wonder does it share the same chassis with our one though, and note that the new Focus for the US doesn't have the 'kinetic' design, which was supposed to be rolled out on Fords across the globe? http://www.fordvehicles.com/Cars/2008focus/

Biro wrote:

You still haven't proved that euro cars are better than the equivalent jap car.

Well how exactly am I supposed to prove that? You obviously disagree with me. I'm offering my opinion, which hasn't changed btw, that Euros generally are better than non Euros, with the honourable exception of a few jap cars, which I mentioned in my previous post yestereday. Theres no logic to what makes a car good. Its whatever floats your boat as far as I'm concerned. I know that the continentals are big into allocating points for this and points for that and come up with the best car on the basis of what gets the most points. I believe to do something like that to cars is to say that they are just some other consumer good; a domestic appliance on wheels if you like. I will not have cars being considered as just some other household item:) Some people love hybrids, I don't like them, some think diesels are the Bees knees, I like some of them, but I like petrols a lot more, if I were buying a BMW, it would have to be a 6 pot petrol unless its the 1 series or X3(which is a disgrace to the BMW name) both of which I hate or the X5, because you'd want to be mad to have a petrol one of those, fabulous sounding straight 6 or not, whereas if I wanted say a Range Rover, without question, I'd have the new V8 diesel. There will never be a proper hot hatch, Coupe, Roadster, or anything really fast with a diesel that I would consider, not even if BMW made it. On the other hand, diesels are the ideal engine for most MPVs, practically all 4X4s, family cars, anything where sheer performace is not the number one requirement. Theres no logic I know to what I said, but thats the great thing about cars. Look at the BMW 3 series. On no logical level whatsoever should BMW be allowed to charge more for the E92(Coupé) than for the E90(saloon). The E92 has one less seat, a smaller boot and less room than the E90. And what would I have? The E92 every time. The 335i SE is BMW's second best car at the moment IMO. The best one is the M5 or even the M6(what else could it be:D ). Why? Can't explain that really, it looks a lot nicer than the E90 I know, but theres absolutely no rational reason why anyone would want an E92 over an E90. But there are lots of perhaps stupid reasons. As I said it looks better. it probably drives a fraction better, it will be a lot more exclusive, they're at present only available with those fabulous sounding straight 6's(all the more reason to have one:D ). The normal 3 series is very mass market these days(partly because its such a good car, and partly because its a BMW), nothing wrong with that at all; as you never would have guessed, I really like Beemers and I've never driven a car yet, I'll probably think they're the only make worth making when I do start driving.;)

Biro

Fair enough, my comments on Ford were arrogant, I withdraw, they are an American company, but have an international car base.
I agree on your comments on the BMW's too, any less than an in-line 6 I really wouldn't bother with in a BMW, based on the badge premium. The 3 series coupe is a good bit different (and better) to drive than the saloon, surprisingly so. I wouldn't have thought there'd be that much difference. The saloon really is nothing special, and over rated.
My point isn't just to negate your point, I just hate sweeping statements that say all of one thing is better than all of another. People who say All Euro are good are wrong, people who say ALL jap are good are wrong, people who say all Fiats are bad are wrong, etc etc.
As you said yourself theres different reasons to buy different cars. But everyone should consider all cars individually against other cars in the bracket that fit their needs. I've no respect for people who buy a car because of a certain badge, or who won't buy a car because of a certain badge. They're just sheep.

Mahatma coat

E92 wrote:

, I really like Beemers and I've never driven a car yet, I'll probably think they're the only make worth making when I do start driving.;)

OK!!!
so you're arguing about the retlative merits of European and Asian cars based on what experiences?

the rest of the posters here who have contributed to this thread have given their opinions based on years of experience with different cars.

So what criteria do you judge vehicles by? shinyness of paintwork, loudness of stereo, comfyness of passenger seat, what the cool kids in your JC class think?

Just as an aside, I have almost the full range discussed here, An E30 318i (which by the way has ****loads of balls for a 4pot), an Australian Ford Falcon ED 4.0Li, and a Toyota Landcruiser Ute.

each car has its good points and its bad points and I use whichever one suits my needs at the time

JHMEG

Well spotted Mahatma coat... I get bored before the end of E92's essays.

E92, you're far from an authority, so stop trying.

unkel

JHMEG wrote:

E92, you're far from an authority, so stop trying.

Stop trying what? This forum is open to all to contribute to

copacetic

JHMEG wrote:

Well spotted Mahatma coat... I get bored before the end of E92's essays.

E92, you're far from an authority, so stop trying.

give the kid a break, he obviously has a big interest and his own opinions. the only diff from most users is that he honestly gave his experience instead of making something up like most people do. Argue with what he says if you have a problem, just putting him down is cowardly and doesn't make you look at all good..

E92

Biro wrote:

Fair enough, my comments on Ford were arrogant, I withdraw, they are an American company, but have an international car base.
I agree on your comments on the BMW's too, any less than an in-line 6 I really wouldn't bother with in a BMW, based on the badge premium. The 3 series coupe is a good bit different (and better) to drive than the saloon, surprisingly so. I wouldn't have thought there'd be that much difference. The saloon really is nothing special, and over rated.
My point isn't just to negate your point, I just hate sweeping statements that say all of one thing is better than all of another. People who say All Euro are good are wrong, people who say ALL jap are good are wrong, people who say all Fiats are bad are wrong, etc etc.
As you said yourself theres different reasons to buy different cars. But everyone should consider all cars individually against other cars in the bracket that fit their needs.

Biro thats absoultely fine by me, and I find myself in agreement with what you said. As for sweeping statements, its funny, because anyone who knows me says I'm great for making them, so I'm not surprised by that at all. I admit completetly that I make them somtimes.

Biro wrote:

I've no respect for people who buy a car because of a certain badge, or who won't buy a car because of a certain badge. They're just sheep.

I've no time for that either. people should buy cars on whether they're good or not. Its why I have absolutely no interest in the 1 series, and the 316i. I can't bear the Merc A and B class either. People buy these cars so that they can say to their friends they have a BMW or a Merc. They haven't the faintest interest in cars I think; they'd be better off if they saved money and bought a well specced hatchback. I like Beemers because they sound great with a straight 6, even at low revs. They're much nicer sounding than even 6 pots from other makes. I like the fact the BMW stand up for what they believe in. While rivals go for V6s, they've stuck with having 6 cylinders in a line(and full marks to Volvo for doing the same). And they've stuck with RWD, even though its dearer and less practical. As I mentioned yesterday (and don't worry Mahatma Coat and JHMEG, I'll be back to this in a while) I've never driven a car, so I can't honestly say how much of a diffference it makes to the driver, but as a passenger I find that RWD cars are smoother and more comfortable, and as I mentioned above those straight 6s really do sound nice. Even straight 6 diesels sound good. and I can't help but like Beemers. I like the fact that while rivals are going for milk floats(with their fuel cells), BMW are sticking with the internal combustion engine when it comes to Hydrogen. When they solve the current problems with it(and no doubt they will), we'll still be able have a proper sounding car, except no harm will be done to the enviornment since the only by product is water.

daveym wrote:

give the kid a break, he obviously has a big interest and his own opinions. the only diff from most users is that he honestly gave his experience instead of making something up like most people do. Argue with what he says if you have a problem, just putting him down is cowardly and doesn't make you look at all good.

Mahatma coat wrote:

OK!!!
so you're arguing about the retlative merits of European and Asian cars based on what experiences?

the rest of the posters here who have contributed to this thread have given their opinions based on years of experience with different cars.

So what criteria do you judge vehicles by? shinyness of paintwork, loudness of stereo, comfyness of passenger seat, what the cool kids in your JC class think?

Just as an aside, I have almost the full range discussed here, An E30 318i (which by the way has ****loads of balls for a 4pot), an Australian Ford Falcon ED 4.0Li, and a Toyota Landcruiser Ute.

each car has its good points and its bad points and I use whichever one suits my needs at the time

JHMEG wrote:

Well spotted Mahatma coat... I get bored before the end of E92's essays.

E92, you're far from an authority, so stop trying.

Thanks for that daveym. I appreciate that. I've been fascinated by cars for as long as I can remember. When I was barely in school, my old pair were in the process of buying a car. We went in a Mondeo, and a Carina E. They bought the Carina(unfortunately), but I knew even then how much of a better car the Mondeo was. And still is:D . I've never once on this board ever tried to say what I knew about what a car was like to drive, because I've never driven a car(not unless you call reversing out the gate driving, or driving a go-kart in Watergrasshill). I'm not in JC year unfortunately i have the LC this year. Why amn't I driving then? A small problem called trying to get insured on the old pairs 1.8 Volvo or 1.8 Avensis. And no, I can't afford my own set of wheels, either. Feel free to argue with what I say, it doesn't bother me in the slightest, I'm always open to other peoples views, nobody said you had to agree with me:) While somtimes I admit I make sweeping statements, I will alwaysgive my honest view on something. As for experiences in this car and that car, it goes without saying that what I thought of the car is what I'll write on this board. And if I haven't been in a car, i'll say what I think of it based on what my impressions are,and from what I hear from friends and in the press. I dont think I can be any more honest than that.


Did I ever say I was an authority?
Why am I so special that I cant give my views about cars? I never say what I think a car is like to drive(for the reason I gave above), but I dont see any reason why I can't say what I've heard they're like to drive, whether they're dull, comfy, fast,slow, gorgeous, good over bumps, what the interior is like, what cars are based on what etc. I'm interested in Modified Cars(but I have no time for people who think that modifying a pos suddenly makes it a great car; its still the pos it was before, it just looks different now), 'Ordinary' cars, some Classic Cars, and watch Top Gear as much as I can, watch cars doing this and that on you tube, read Fast Car/ Autocar etc when time permits, usually on the internet, and watch the odd bit of F1 or Le Mans(thouggh I can't say I know a whole pile about either). If its a car, then its probably interesting:D The whole reason why I said I never drove in my life in the first place is because I avoid having to make up stuff I know nothing about(what a car is like to drive)

Mahatma coat

Kid, my point is that unless you actualy drive the car and experience it from that perspective then you cant have an understanding of what its like, I borrowed a mates Chrysler 300C last week, looks the business, sounds great with that hemi, very comfy inside, turning and stoping however are a very different story, even if you dont slam the brakes, and try to bring her to a steady stop theres a noticeable nosedive in the front under braking, the shocks seem to be made from Jelly as the ride bounces and then echos, will say tho that the 4/8 cylinder configuration thingy is clever, pretty much instant power on tap.

oh and let me repeat it looks feckn fantastic, but handles like a barge.