A question for the Dublin Bus drivers here.

Flukey

Tell me drivers, what do you think about the thorny old issue of proper night services? Is it not crazy that at 11:30pm, with thousands of people still out and about in the city and suburbs, that the service stops? Many of those people want to go somewhere. Even during the week, there are many people around the city, wanting to travel. We have the Nitelink at the weekends, but that does not start until 12:30am, leaving a full hour with no services whatsoever. In the 1950s they had a good late night service in British cities. Tourists here can't believe there are no services after 11:30pm. I live here and I find it unbelievable too.

The Nitelink itself has many obvious flaws. For many people, going home means heading into to the city, not out of it. They are not served. With the limited pick-up points, even many of those outbound aren't well served either. It is crazy seeing a half empty bus (an excuse for not putting on a better service) getting emptier as its journey continues, passing many potential customers. It would slow the outbound journey, but with the lower level of traffic at that time of night, the bus gets out fairly quick anyway. You may have to restructure the fare structure a bit, but it would mean you would get more passengers. If it can be managed during the rest of the day, then it could be done then. Taxi drivers and the Luas get a lot of business, so the demand is there, and even some taxi drivers have said to me that they would welcome more buses at night.

Part of the reason that people don't go for the Nitelink is that there is still that mindset that there are no buses, so they automatically go for a taxi. A proper service could break that mindset. Others would go for a bus, but there is no buses at all or none that really suit them. Along the wall of Trinity College you'll see a lot of people flagging down taxis, because the service isn't there for them. Many of them are waiting ages because they can't get a taxi, and while they are standing near the Nitelink, there is no service that suits their destination, although there would have been a few hours earlier.

Dublin Bus brings thousands of people into the city centre and to many other parts of Dublin, earlier in the evening, and then abandons them. I know there are worries about drunks on buses, but a proper bus service would get more off the street and mean that a lot of people would not stay another hour in the pub because they won't make the last bus. Others might stay later, it's true, but there are still a lot of others that would like be able to go home at a time of their choosing that is between 11:30pm and 12:30am.

A 24 hour service may not be necessary, but there are times when the service is not there when people need it, not just nights. Sunday mornings are another example. So lads, will Dublin Bus ever live up to its mottos and change with the city and serve the entire community by improving night services and having more early services at weekends?

Xylophonic

Flukey wrote:

...Others might stay later, it's true, but there are still a lot of others that would like be able to go home at a time of their choosing that is between 11:30pm and 12:30am...

Including bus drivers!

AlekSmart

Flukey......Yer Dead Right.

SickCert

I agree too, cant believe this has never come up before.

lostexpectation

do the (irish)drivers want to work nights?

SickCert

Family men, probadly not - the young stock?

Tomohawk

You can also add the Dart to this debate. Many european capitals and large regional cities have had this level of public transport service as a norm for a couple of decades now. What are we waiting for in this country?

spareman

Tomohawk wrote:

You can also add the Dart to this debate. Many european capitals and large regional cities have had this level of public transport service as a norm for a couple of decades now. What are we waiting for in this country?

simple answer= Government funding, Dublin Bus are not going to run a service at night time if nobody is going to use it, Look at the midweek nitelinks, anytime Ive worked them you be doing well to have 20/30 passengers. Maybe if the government were willing to subsidise it, Dublin bus would run it, otherwise forget about it, Dublin bus would lose too much of their budget running empty buses at 4am on a weekday morning, And then you have the whole issueing of licence's stuff, DB wanted to run the 746 24 hours but were rejected a licence, nothing to do with the politican's friend Aircoach Im sure.:rolleyes:

Victor

Tomohawk wrote:

You can also add the Dart to this debate. Many european capitals and large regional cities have had this level of public transport service as a norm for a couple of decades now. What are we waiting for in this country?

Not really, most railways systems keep at least some part of the timetable clear for maintenance purposes, although they may provide weekend night services, they don't during the week. Its diffficult walking a tunnel looking for faults on a live system.

Buses are a lot more practical for night services unless there is very solid demand.

Saruman

Im not a bus driver but my dad is. He talked to me about this before.. actually he never shuts up about bus routes Nightlink for a bus driver is about 4 hours work for a days pay... i think.. some of what i say may be wrong because i tend to zone out...
So its serious overtime. A lot of bus drivers are in fact single guys or family men who want to make as much money for their family as they can. Before the overtime was cut and limit to a certain ammount some drivers including my dad could earn 2k a week before tax!! And that was Punts not euro!!
Anyway the point is, plenty of drivers would jump at the chance of doing it of there were more routes etc.
I think its stil 11:30 because thats when the pubs used to close. Most stay open longer these days.

I also heard that Dublin bus, instead if increasing the nightlink has actually been reducing it because it costs more money than it makes in some cases.
Again because its not a completely public system, they have to make a profit. Unlike former eastern bloc countries where its all public and profit does not come into it.

Victor

Saruman wrote:

Im not a bus driver but my dad is. He talked to me about this before.. actually he never shuts up about bus routes Nightlink for a bus driver is about 4 hours work for a days pay... i think.. some of what i say may be wrong because i tend to zone out...

I understand that most Nitelink drivers are now on shift work, not overtime.

I also heard that Dublin bus, instead if increasing the nightlink has actually been reducing it because it costs more money than it makes in some cases.

I think its fairly steay over the last while, but changes in mid-week drinking habits and better taxi availibility did lead to a reduction in some services.

Again because its not a completely public system, they have to make a profit. Unlike former eastern bloc countries where its all public and profit does not come into it.

Its not just about profit or loss, its about appropriate use of resources.

Flukey

spareman wrote:

simple answer= Government funding, Dublin Bus are not going to run a service at night time if nobody is going to use it, Look at the midweek nitelinks, anytime Ive worked them you be doing well to have 20/30 passengers.

Well part of that is, as I said, the mindset that "There are no buses, so I'll get a taxi." That needs to be broken by providing a proper service that goes where people want to go. Another reason is, even with the Nitelink itself, Dublin Bus have this crazy idea that everyone goes home from a little triangle around D'Olier Street, Westmoreland Street and the wall of Trinity College. This, despite the fact that earlier in the evening they'll have brought thousands of people to points all over the city and suburbs. You have the crazy situation where people actually get a taxi into the city centre, because there are no buses to get them there, in order to get the Nitelink the rest of the way home. The argument that they won't make money rings a bit hollow when every night the Nitelink runs, it drives past willing and paying customers and leaves other willing and paying customers all over Dublin with no service at all. Hundreds of buses parked in the various depots while thousands of people want to go places does not make sense, or money!!!

Ham'nd'egger

Flukey wrote:

Well part of that is, as I said, the mindset that "There are no buses, so I'll get a taxi." That needs to be broken by providing a proper service that goes where people want to go. Another reason is, even with the Nitelink itself, Dublin Bus have this crazy idea that everyone goes home from a little triangle around D'Olier Street, Westmoreland Street and the wall of Trinity College. This, despite the fact that earlier in the evening they'll have brought thousands of people to points all over the city and suburbs. You have the crazy situation where people actually get a taxi into the city centre, because there are no buses to get them there, in order to get the Nitelink the rest of the way home. The argument that they won't make money rings a bit hollow when every night the Nitelink runs, it drives past willing and paying customers and leaves other willing and paying customers all over Dublin with no service at all. Hundreds of buses parked in the various depots while thousands of people want to go places does not make sense, or money!!!

Flukey, while what you are saying is perfectly valid and makes a wealth of sense, it does miss the initial point somewhat.

I believe Sickcert will confirm same, but I am to understand that there is agreement to run city buses until 12:30AM in Dublin; it is just waiting for central government to put up the €'s to pay for it all. For the most park, buses are running empty or close to on most city routes after rush hours so clearly somebody has to pay for this viz a viz the extra drivers, extra buses (What will it be, an extra hour of service for say 100 buses) to run the later times, not to mention putting a strain on mechanical and cleaning of buses (One less hour to work on the buses that are out on the road) etc.

Flukey

Dublin Bus, as their own publicity infers, should be serving the entire community. Services should be there to meet the demand. There are people on the streets at that time of the night that want to travel, as evidenced by them being there and the amount of taxis on the street. There are people queueing for them, that can't get one. Even taxi drivers have said to me that they would be happy to have more buses on at that time of night.

A proper service put in, with people knowing about it, will be used. There is a lull after people have gone out, but that is not the end of the demand. It picks up again even before the pubs close. The majority of the thousands going home or elsewhere by taxi at that time, got to where they were by bus, and would gladly use them again if there were ones to serve them. Pointing at the Nitelink's empty buses, isn't a proper measure, given the limits of its service. A level of service to suit the demand should be put in place. The Nitelink needs a major overhaul, for the reasons I stated earlier with all its flaws. It's a great service, but a missed opportunity.

Heart

I would love to see bus services run later into the night, and if the fare was even I bit higher I wouldn't mind either.

I hate waiting for taxis, I live 20-25 minutes away from the City Centre, however there is limited choice to get home late at night. For example, next week I finish word at 12 midnight, do I wait in town 30 minutes for the helf 12 Nitelink, do i risk walking or do I pay (or over pay!) for a taxi home??? I'd much rather get the Nitelink (or similar late night bus service) for a reasonable price.

H

shltter

Didn't we go through all this a couple of weeks ago ??


The company have an agreement with the staff for full night operations for the last 7 years but they have not implemented it.

The reason is that it is not economically viable to operate a full service all night. The Nitelinks have been curtailed in the last couple of years because demand has eased due to the taxi deregulation.

The reason that the Nitelinks do not operate back into town is two fold one is the security issue and the main reason is that it is a matter of putting the resources available to best use. If the buses operated back into town then it would mean that less buses would be available in town. For example at the moment the 41N takes an 1 hour and 20 minutes for the guy to get out to swords and get back into town. If he had to drive the route back into town then you are looking at 2 hours.

Secondly the Government and the DOT are not that concerned about night time operations. There is NO government funding for night time operations it is run on a completely commercial basis ie it pays for itself or it does not operate that is why the Thursday night service was curtailed because it was not commercially viable.

If there was money to be made in full or increased night time operations then DB would do it and if they did not then someone else would do it but the truth of the matter is that there is no rush of private bus companies to offer Night time services in fact when they did have licenses for it they quickly abandoned them.

When the new regulator takes over then it will be up to the regulator to determine what level of service and when and what level of subvention it will carry. But given that there is only going to be the same fund to spend I doubt that the regulator will spend the subvention on night time services to the detriment of daytime ones especially given the experience of the extended night time services in the London area.

SickCert

Hamndegger wrote:

Flukey, while what you are saying is perfectly valid and makes a wealth of sense, it does miss the initial point somewhat.

I believe Sickcert will confirm same, but I am to understand that there is agreement to run city buses until 12:30AM in Dublin; it is just waiting for central government to put up the €'s to pay for it all. For the most park, buses are running empty or close to on most city routes after rush hours so clearly somebody has to pay for this viz a viz the extra drivers, extra buses (What will it be, an extra hour of service for say 100 buses) to run the later times, not to mention putting a strain on mechanical and cleaning of buses (One less hour to work on the buses that are out on the road) etc.

For a 1230 departure your looking at every duty being re-written as many late duties at the moment are 9hrs and the extra hour will make the work time illegal. Would we be looking at 1145 and 1210 trips as well? Meaning the last bus would be back in the shed at 2am and back on the road from 520am.
More staff in all areas from cleaning, fuelling, controllers and the main dudes Drivers. Thats four different unions reps in different areas to accept agreements to the extra hour and change in conditions to their own departments.
Every extra head working after 11.30 is an additional €25 approx (OT rate) for the hour. Sounds simple but a major change.

Nitelinks are dying during the week so little incentive (For Victor) the links are operated as OT in some sheds still, i believe Phibs' offer it as a change for drivers working daytime.

Flukey

We don't need a full night service and I know there are a lot of internal issues to sort out, but having no buses whatsoever after 11:30pm has not made sense for decades, and even since the advent of the Nitelink.

The round trip argument for the having no inbound services is not good enough. Saying it would increase the time of return is in effect conceding that there are customers there that would use it. Any driver will see lots of potential customers on the streets that can't be taken up, losing revenue for the company. They see them outbound too. As a passenger I see them all the time and it is madness that a half-empty bus, getting emptier as the journey progresses is refusing to take passengers, particularly when the company running the service says they want to make money. It is worse that a completely empty inbound bus refuses them too.

The spacing between and location of some of the pick-up points are crazy, limiting their use. I usually get the 44N. The first pick-up point is in Ranelagh. What bright spark came up with that idea? It should be somewhere near St. Stephen's Green and have another before that one in Ranelagh, near the canal perhaps. The 46N has it's first one at Donnybrook Church. Having ones at St. Stephen's Green, the Burlington Hotel and in Donnybrook village would make more sense and get you some passengers.

The Nitelink is not getting passengers because of the many obvious flaws, not because there is no demand. It is not the case that the Nitelink isn't getting passengers, but that they won't take passengers. People only take taxis because the service is there when they want it, they can be picked up from where they are and go in the direction they want to go, and to the locations they want to go, that is if they can get a taxi at all. If Dublin Bus did those things at night they'd have more passengers. The other issues can be got over and then we can get the entire community being served, as they are in other European cities, for the past half a century and longer in many cases.

Victor

Flukey wrote:

The round trip argument for the having no inbound services is not good enough. Saying it would increase the time of return is in effect conceding that there are customers there that would use it.

Most Nitelinks take roundabout routes to service the largest possible area and take a direct route back.

Flukey

I know that they take a direct route back Victor, but they don't serve anyone on the way back at all, so that is not quite the largest amount of people possible. They could still take a more direct return route and pick people up. People want to head towards the city, to get home or as part of their journey home. They are not served at all.

I live on the southside, but I've had occasion to cross the city to visit friends in the northern suburbs. To get home I have to get a taxi into town in order to get a Nitelink the rest of the way home. My friends would face a similar task if coming to meet me locally. If I'm meeting friends we normally do so in the centre of the city, because we can all easily get there and back. There are other places that we might meet in occasionally that we can easily get too, but don't because of the difficulty in returning.

There are other social consequences of the lack of late night buses. It is one of the reasons the city centre is so crowded. While they could get there very easily by bus earlier in the evening, many people won't go to other parts of the Dublin area, because they can't get back by bus. So people head to the centre of the city. A lot of the people out socially in the suburbs are all locals.

Dublin Bus have a genuine fear of security issues on their buses at night, but by providing a proper service they could actually make the city safer by spreading out the areas that people congregate and by getting people off the streets quicker. Another issue for Dublin Bus staff around security would be wanting to have a second staff member on board for security - an additional cost. Some arrangement might be possible with a third party, like the garda reserves, to go on some buses. There are solutions to all problems.

SickCert

The fear after dark in huge and i dont think CCTV or an extra head to get beaten is an option. It is sad but most stops going into town after 10pm look like this from Thursday to Saturday.

YOU TUBE VIDEO

We carry a weird group of young party goers that are twisted getting on and have been known to try to fight several Garda's at once.
Its pathetic because they destroy the bus, leaving rolling bottles and hash butts all over the machine. Decent passengers are afraid on some routes and would rather taxi.

Every extra head on the bus costs €25 an hour, so 2 being €50 and thats before fuel and the cost of the behind the scenes people.

Flukey

Oh I know. Almost any of the seventy-something buses, even during daylight. I've seen plenty of idiots on buses. We can't let them determine how a service is run though. They are a broader problem in society, but most of us though, do want to get around. The extra head being a third pary like a garda reserve as I said, could cut the cost. Would the unions object on the basis of it taking a potential job or be glad of it as extra protection for their members?

As for those YouTube idiots, they were harmless enough looking, and from Meath!

Heart

What about late night (or 24 hr.) Airport services? Would there not be demand here? The 300 in Belfast (Belfast City Airport to City Centre) now runs 24 hours, why can't we have a service to the Airport all night.

And before anybody, tells me Aircoach are doing it, (a) they don't stop at mant stops and (b) it isn't wheelchair accesible.

The plans for the 24hr 746 nearly made it, therefore it looks as if this was a viable option?

H

sweet-rasmus

spareman wrote:

you have the whole issueing of licence's stuff, DB wanted to run the 746 24 hours but were rejected a licence, nothing to do with the politican's friend Aircoach Im sure.:rolleyes:

aha! so they wanted the 24hr, and are not against people needing to be in the airport at crazy hours. good to know! hopefully they can sort this soon.

Flukey

Prior to the Aircoach Dublin Bus were basically of the opinion that there was no point in servicing it. Now they do, along with the Aircoach and taxis. There is enough business there for everyone and of course all those services also pick up passengers that aren't to or from the airport, so they get additional revenue and coverage.

John R

Flukey wrote:

Prior to the Aircoach Dublin Bus were basically of the opinion that there was no point in servicing it.

Were they really! And of course you would know their opinion because you are invited to all their board meetings I suppose. :rolleyes:

FYI, they had been running their express service from the city centre, Connolly/Busaras and Heuston for more than 20 years prior to aircoach starting. and the 41 routes have provided a regular local service to the Airport for much longer than that.

Calina

Flukey wrote:

Prior to the Aircoach Dublin Bus were basically of the opinion that there was no point in servicing it. Now they do, along with the Aircoach and taxis. There is enough business there for everyone and of course all those services also pick up passengers that aren't to or from the airport, so they get additional revenue and coverage.

Flukey, you seem to occupy some alternative universe here. The 747/748/746 and 41s have been servicing the airport for a lot longer than the Aircoach has. The 16A was extended out the airport roughly seven years ago and the Aircoach started more recently than that again.

KC61

John R wrote:

Were they really! And of course you would know their opinion because you are invited to all their board meetings I suppose. :rolleyes:

FYI, they had been running their express service from the city centre, Connolly/Busaras and Heuston for more than 20 years prior to aircoach starting. and the 41 routes have provided a regular local service to the Airport for much longer than that.

The Express service to/from the Airport has operated by CIE since at least the 1960s from Busarus, with altered routings attempted during the 1980s and 1990s to serve hotels around Dublin city (much in the same way as Aircoach does now) but was not a success, and it then reverted to the current 747/748 services.

The 41 group of routes have served the Airport since the Airport opened more or less, for about the last 60 years!

Both of these were adequate for the market as it was. You have to remember that air travel was not as popular in times past as it is now and there simply was not the same demand to travel to/from the Airport as at present.

Prior to Aircoach even appearing on the scene, the 16A extension from Santry to the Airport was introduced, along with the 46A limited service to/from the Airport (now known as the 746), and the 230 local service.

So as John R says it would be rather unfair to say that DB had no interest in serving the Airport!!!!

SickCert

The only change to the new arrival of Aircoach from DB was 16a's and a new service called the 46a extension NOW 746. All the other DB services still operated from the Airport and dont forget 1999 was really the boom year for the bus.

Flukey

Point taken, but there certainly has been a lot of new routes and extensions, particularly across the city, like the 16A and 746. Prior to that you only had the local routes and the specials from the city. As someone who has been using buses since the 70s and knowing some of its staff, I can say that Dublin Bus has improved a lot overall down the years, but there are still things that need to be done. A lot more of the HQ people should get out with us commuters and you drivers to see and take from our experiences. Between us, we could teach them an awful lot.