Graphic Design Monkeys

ballooba · 09-02-2007 3:35pm #1

I've found a code monkey to build a website for me. Things went well and it's finished. I found him on RentACoder.com

I'd like the site to have a bit more professional look to it. Is there any website like RAC for graphic designers?

I want this done for under $100.

6th · 09-02-2007 3:41pm

Go put that exact same post on CreativeIreland

heggie · 09-02-2007 4:14pm

and prepare to be ripped apart!

Ph3n0m · 09-02-2007 4:17pm

Hate to be the bearer of bad news - but I seriously doubt you would get anyone on most design forums to do anything like design a website for under $100

Design of a website is more then a few bits of colour - anyone can do that and save themselves some money.

What exactly are you looking for them to do - design a logo, color scheme, page layout, etc? That will cost you more (atleast in Ireland) then your budget will allow

As for rentacoder.com but for designers - havent come across one yet

6th · 09-02-2007 4:18pm

OP have a read of this:

Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking “artists” for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of illustrative service.

But what they’re NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare someone with these particular talents can be.

To those who are “seeking artists”, let me ask you; How many people do you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the services you need? A dozen? Five? One? …none?

More than likely, you don’t know any. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be posting on craigslist to find them.

And this is not really a surprise.

In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT field.

So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as you drive down the street?

Would you offer a neurosurgeon the “opportunity” to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him “a few bucks” for “materials”. What a deal!)

Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?

If you answered “yes” to ANY of the above, you’re obviously insane. If you answered “no”, then kudos to you for living in the real world.

But then tell me… why would you think it is okay to live out the same, delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities are even less in supply than these folks?

Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.

A few things you need to know;

1. It is not a “great opportunity” for an artist to have his work seen on your car/’zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a “great opportunity” for YOU to have their work there.

2. It is not clever to seek a “student” or “beginner” in an attempt to get work for free. It’s ignorant and insulting. They may be “students”, but that does not mean they don’t deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a “student” once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.

3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen by other people, whether it’s one or one million, is NOT a valid enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their “portfolio”. They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as they should. It’s not compensation. It’s their right, and it’s a given.

4. Stop thinking that you’re giving them some great chance to work. Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are people who possess these skills.

5. Students DO need “experience”. But they do NOT need to get it by giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors list the “experience” they got while nailing down a loose step at their grandmother’s house when they were seventeen?

If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.

6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some will ask you to “submit work for consideration”. They may even be posing as some sort of “contest”. These are almost always scams. They will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the “contest”, or be “chosen” for the gig, and find what they like most. They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or “spec”, work. It’s risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to avoid it, completely. For more information on this subject, please visit www.no-spec.com.

So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to pay you. Whether they are “spec” gigs, or just some guy who wants a free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need them.

And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free… please wake up and join the real world. The only thing you’re accomplishing is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue.

smash · 09-02-2007 4:35pm

less of the personal abuse, or next time you get banned

KTdesigner · 09-02-2007 4:51pm

OK, so do you go to your mechanic and say I want my car fixed for under €100, or your plumber, or builder or any other trade? No, why because they laugh at you and make you feel miniscule and ridiculous. Indeed, most experienced people who do any sort of professional work would rarely do anything for under €100 (anything respectable that is).

You could always ask someone from Fas, or hey, why not do it yourself, after all, how hard could it be, its just sitting at one of those computer things and hitting a few buttons isn't it? Yea, and perhaps you can design a new kind of aircraft while your at it, only take a few mins.

What is your job (I'm assuming you have one of course) and how much would you charge to do whatever it is you do? Unless its babysitting or car washing, I doubt you'd consider doing your job for under €100.

Pfff, N00b >: [

6th · 09-02-2007 4:54pm

Hey steve06, hopefully he doesnt notice the personal abuse in your post ... he might report you for it as it against the charter

I'd like to see the OP respond.

smash · 09-02-2007 4:57pm

6th wrote:

Hey steve06, hopefully he doesnt notice the personal abuse in your post ... he might report you for it as it against the charter

I'd like to see the OP respond.

ye, I'm just tired of idiots like this... they're everywhere!

Even in interviews now too... hmmm 6.5 years industry experience... senior designer.... nice projects there, would you like 35k a year... yes sure, and would you like a kick in the nuts....

6th · 09-02-2007 4:59pm

Listen I understand over 6 years myself in the design/print/advertising industry and I still get asked to do stuff 'cheap'.

heggie · 09-02-2007 5:08pm

be thankful it wasn't a quote lol...

and whats your budget?

ballooba · 09-02-2007 5:19pm

Jaysus, this is hilarious. I had actually forgotten about this thread until I got a PM about it.

I got someone to do it. A design agency in Sweden. For $150.

The website itself was done for $250 by a student in Romania. It's a full Client Server model with AJAX, PHP and MySQL.

KTdesigner · 09-02-2007 5:21pm

So whats the URL (website address)?
Let's have a look then.

ballooba · 09-02-2007 5:25pm

KTdesigner wrote:

So whats the URL (website address)?
Let's have a look then.

I'm still negotiating the contract for the design work. it won't be completed until next week.

The website is at http://www.irishpubprices.com/index.php (test environment)

I guess you guys never heard of offshoring before. It's one of the reasons I stopped pursuing development as a career. As for those above citing their 6 years experience... I have more.

galactus · 09-02-2007 5:26pm

ballooba wrote:

I've found a code monkey to build a website for me. Things went well and it's finished. I found him on RentACoder.com

I'd like the site to have a bit more professional look to it. Is there any website like RAC for graphic designers?

I want this done for under $100.

Psst that ballooba is taking the mickey out of you.

ballooba · 09-02-2007 5:32pm

galactus wrote:

Psst that ballooba is taking the mickey out of you.

I'm sorry I ever asked now.

Liam Byrne · 09-02-2007 8:04pm

How long did it take the Romanian guy to code the following:

<h1>Forbidden</h1>
<p>You don't have permission to access /diaconu/ on this server.</p>

misterq · 09-02-2007 8:15pm

You were ripped off mate, I could have made that 403 forbidden page into a really cool, Web 2.0, AJAX 4.8 page with 2 clients and 9 servers for $100.

My experience of off shoring projects is that any saving is whittled away by communications issues, substandard productions etc.

That doesn't mean it won't work for some though.
I hope you get your money's worth.

axer · 09-02-2007 8:23pm

Liam Byrne wrote:

How long did it take the Romanian guy to code the following:

<h1>Forbidden</h1>
<p>You don't have permission to access /diaconu/ on this server.</p>

And it doesn't even validate!

ballooba · 09-02-2007 8:32pm

misterq wrote:

You were ripped off mate, I could have made that 403 forbidden page into a really cool, Web 2.0, AJAX 4.8 page with 2 clients and 9 servers for $100.

Oops, forgot about this thread again. I'm in process of moving test environment to "production". Link fixed.

misterq wrote:

My experience of off shoring projects is that any saving is whittled away by communications issues, substandard productions etc.

The guys english was very good. We communicated over email and Google Talk. He used my dev server.

misterq wrote:

That doesn't mean it won't work for some though.
I hope you get your money's worth.

For $230 (I gave him 15% bonus) I think I got a bargain.

pburns · 09-02-2007 9:32pm

steve06 wrote:

Even in interviews now too... hmmm 6.5 years industry experience... senior designer.... nice projects there, would you like 35k a year... yes sure, and would you like a kick in the nuts....

Supply-and-demand baby - suck it up... Sorry to be harsh but IT'S NOT THE EMPLOYER'S FAULT...

There are too many - admittedly talented - designers/developers out there who are legends in their own lunchbox and won't accept the stark economic reality that web dev work - bearing the level of expertise involved - is unlikely to make you rich. That's partly because there is no accreditation/trade body/trade standards. Everybody from a spotty 14 yr old in a berdroom to a coder in Romania/China (wherever) can design a 'credible' site (at least to the eyes of the non-professional). There will always be a place for domestic developers who can communicate and work with clients on a face-to-face basis but the industry as a whole does not have a high status.

Certainly 'Mom-and-Pop' sites like the one in this example are a waste of time they'll always be looking at maximum bang-for-buck and will pay fleck all anywhichway. It's only the high-end, corporate and (maybe) government work that will continue to be in any way lucrative.

If people are offering €35k after over 6 years and a credible portfolio the writings on the wall.

ballooba · 09-02-2007 9:36pm

pburns wrote:

Supply-and-demand baby - suck it up... Sorry to be harsh but IT'S NOT THE EMPLOYER'S FAULT...

Developers in ireland could not be expected to survive on money like that. For a student in Bucharest it would probably go a fair way. Offshoring doesn't always work as has been the costly experience of many firms. For this project however, the shoe fitted, so I wore it.

Liam Byrne · 09-02-2007 10:10pm

It's not bad as a basic site....$230 is what, about €190 ?

Couple of issues, though:

1) The "City" field is pretty limiting (considering Ireland has about 7 cities and only one in each county, and you've already selected that); better to have "Town/City"

2) Watch the spelling (no, not the ipsum stuff) - there's no such word as "chepeast"

The other thing to watch is how easily anyone who comes up with a design (presumably for €115, considering there are 15% bonuses going a-begging) can integrate that design into the existing code.

If you were talking around €300 - €350, I'd consider it, but at €100 I'd be looking at allocating an absolute maximum of 2-3 hours (and even then I'd be completely screwed after tax), so I wouldn't be able to (a) give a standard option A/option B choice or (b) stand over or support the design and integration.

ballooba · 10-02-2007 4:38pm

Liam Byrne wrote:

1) The "City" field is pretty limiting (considering Ireland has about 7 cities and only one in each county, and you've already selected that); better to have "Town/City"

Will change that. Thanks. It was intended to do both, guess I'll have to be explicit.

Liam Byrne wrote:

2) Watch the spelling (no, not the ipsum stuff) - there's
no such word as "chepeast"

Will change that too. Remember it's still in test.

Liam Byrne wrote:

If you were talking around €300 - €350, I'd consider it, but at €100 I'd be looking at allocating an absolute maximum of 2-3 hours (and even then I'd be completely screwed after tax), so I wouldn't be able to (a) give a standard option A/option B choice or (b) stand over or support the design and integration.

That guy put in two weeks for $230. Don't know how long the designers will be putting in.

PixelTrawler · 10-02-2007 5:50pm

Ph3n0m wrote:

As for rentacoder.com but for designers - havent come across one yet

This is as near to rentacoder as I can find.
http://www.sitepoint.com/contests/?

Its an interesting forum to keep an eye on. As people contest for jobs they post images of the work and sometimes it gets competitive.

Some of the design work put forward are really good, some muck!

smash · 10-02-2007 6:03pm

pburns wrote:

Supply-and-demand baby - suck it up... Sorry to be harsh but IT'S NOT THE EMPLOYER'S FAULT...

There are too many - admittedly talented - designers/developers out there who are legends in their own lunchbox and won't accept the stark economic reality that web dev work - bearing the level of expertise involved - is unlikely to make you rich. That's partly because there is no accreditation/trade body/trade standards. Everybody from a spotty 14 yr old in a berdroom to a coder in Romania/China (wherever) can design a 'credible' site (at least to the eyes of the non-professional). There will always be a place for domestic developers who can communicate and work with clients on a face-to-face basis but the industry as a whole does not have a high status.

Certainly 'Mom-and-Pop' sites like the one in this example are a waste of time they'll always be looking at maximum bang-for-buck and will pay fleck all anywhichway. It's only the high-end, corporate and (maybe) government work that will continue to be in any way lucrative.

If people are offering €35k after over 6 years and a credible portfolio the writings on the wall.

what a load of rubbish... it's all these people that do 6 week fas courses and then go wrking for peanuts and then change career because the figure out that it's harder than they think, they're wrecking the industry!

And you haven't seen my portfolio but I bet you've actually used a lot of my sites... I have some very very high profile projects on my CV and have never found it hard to get work. Some people just get a crap designer to do the work and pay little money... then they come looking for a redesign because it's crap and they just offer crap money to someone with experience too!!! You just can't do that.

ballooba · 11-02-2007 5:01am

steve06 wrote:

Some people just get a crap designer to do the work and pay little money... then they come looking for a redesign because it's crap and they just offer crap money to someone with experience too!!! You just can't do that.

Ryanair paid "crap designers" AKA students buttons to design their original website, which they made a lot of money off. They shortly outgrew that website and had to pay "real money" for a rebuild. It doesn't mean that the original website was "crap".

axer · 11-02-2007 10:36am

ballooba wrote:

Ryanair paid "crap designers" AKA students buttons to design their original website, which they made a lot of money off. They shortly outgrew that website and had to pay "real money" for a rebuild. It doesn't mean that the original website was "crap".

Aye but I think that was more of a publicity stunt. I think they were using Navitaires systems from the begining which Im sure wasnt cheap.

PixelTrawler · 11-02-2007 10:09pm

steve06 wrote:

And you haven't seen my portfolio but I bet you've actually used a lot of my sites... I have some very very high profile projects on my CV.

Im really curious now... ( honestly, not sarcasm ). Any chance of a look see

Liam Byrne · 13-02-2007 12:27am

ballooba wrote:

That guy put in two weeks for $230. Don't know how long the designers will be putting in.

Not disputing your cost/benefit analysis in any way....taxes and cost of living in Ireland do play a part.

There's a lot of factors in play, though, and lots of these get left out when people are looking for "cheap" websites; functionality, ease-of-navigation, the look of the site, ease-of-update, support, search engine response, certification, accessibility, etc.

Example 1: A brilliant-looking Flash site that Google can't index; what good is it ?

Example 2: Search Engine Optimisation companies charge thousands in order to come up high in search results; while this can regularly be worthwhile, a well-thought-out site can often achieve the same results, thereby saving you thousands

Example 3: A site that can't be easily updated is a real pain-in-the-butt; the initial saving in development gets swallowed by having to get the developer in every time you want to make a change.

If you consider all of the above, or even decide some of them aren't required, then fair enough, but if you don't consider how all of them impact on your website, you'll end up losing out.

I'm not saying that any project necessarily requires all of the above; just that the questions need to be asked beforehand in order to get value for money in the longer-term.

Graphic Design Monkeys

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