Ooh! This looks interesting!

Grolschevik

The Koch blurb:
"The Pedaltone, a semi 4-channel foot-operated floor unit, bursting with innovative features and fitted with four 12AX7 preamp tubes.
With many of the same features found on our other products it not only guarantees the Koch sound, it also adds unique new sounds that no other preamp can produce. The pedaltone outputs these sounds to almost any input you can imagine: a mixing console, recording system, 19" power amp, FX retrun jack or even the input jack of any guitar amp.
For reaching new levels of thick, fat, rich and saturated distortion, we have built-in a very powerful feature, a small 0.5 watt all-tube power amp. This little power stage will enable you to create huge sounds similar to a fully overdriven tube combo or stack. Together with the footswitchable enhancer on the clean channel and the booster function on the distortion channel the range of clean and overdrive tones seems almost endless."

€555 at Thomann.

Karl Hungus

Looks very much like the old Mesa Boogie V-Twin pedals, but with more options.

feylya

Looks pretty cool alright. Wonder what it would sound like direct to board.

Voodu Child

If I remember correctly, it got a fairly decent review in guitarist magazine (about 5 years ago).

Its been around long enough that you'd pick up one on ebay if you looked hard enough.

Eoin Madsen

feylya wrote:

Looks pretty cool alright. Wonder what it would sound like direct to board.

Like most other transistor guitar preamps, I guessing. :rolleyes: Can we have a sticky where I do the rant about low voltage 12AX7s for once and for all?

feylya

Is it low voltage though?

Voodu Child

It runs off 12V AC.

Whether its plate voltage or not, the proof is in the pudding - it either sounds good or it doesnt.

I havent heard it so i dont know.

feylya

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the V-Twin sound quite good?

Voodu Child

feylya wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the V-Twin sound quite good?

No youre not wrong - the V-Twin is considered one of the best overdrive pedals out there, and fetch big money on ebay these days.

I think Eoin is mostly just getting at whether the Koch is just a fancy overdrive, or can actually be considered a proper valve preamp.

Karl Hungus

feylya wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the V-Twin sound quite good?

Indeed, supposedly very good indeed, but I've heard amazing things about the V-1 Bottle Rocket too.

They've got a V-Twin on the U-Box though. Might be of interest to some folks here.

Eoin Madsen

I'm not passing judgement here either, since I haven't heard or used one of these either. But the constant "valve" pedal thing starts to annoy me.

Nominal plate voltage for a 12AX7 is 250 vDC. 12 volts is the bare minimum that you can operate a normal valve at, without physically damaging it. The plate voltage would be so low that the valve simply won't offer any amplification factor at all. I'm pretty sure you'd lose gain across it if you put it in series with the signal path.

I've used a V1, and it is a very nice pedal. But I'd question whether that has much to do with the valves in it. It's just a good circuit. The word "valve" obviously sells more units, and they're pretty cheap to add if you use low voltage.

Voodu Child

Eoin Madsen wrote:

I've used a V1, and it is a very nice pedal. But I'd question whether that has much to do with the valves in it. It's just a good circuit. The word "valve" obviously sells more units, and they're pretty cheap to add if you use low voltage.

Without wanting to sound like a zealot, if Randall Smith puts a 12AX7 in a pedal, im inclined to believe it's doing something other than looking good on the ad.

I might shoot off an email to mesa out of curiosity when ive time.

Doctor J

Dabhoys had a V-twin IIRC and while it was ok, it wasn't much more than merely ok. Certainly it didn't sound €300 better than yer average Boss.

John

Agreed. It was nice but I'd expect a lot more from it for the money. He sold his fairly sharpish, disappointed like a child who dropped their ice cream after leaving the shop.

punchdrunk

this badboy runs at 300volts!!



me want!!

Voodu Child

No overdrive pedal is going to make a bad amp sound good unfortunately, no matter how expensive it is. Looking at the v-twin as a E300 distortion box is kind of missing the point though. Dissapointment is pretty much guaranteed.

Speaking of overdrive's, check out this Andy Timmons video - he's using a pedal called the BB preamp, sounds nice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiW22O914Cg

Doctor J

That's the thing, you see he wasn't playing it into bad amps either (he's the guy who now has the Diezel)

John

voodoo_child wrote:

No overdrive pedal is going to make a bad amp sound good unfortunately, no matter how expensive it is. Looking at the v-twin as a E300 distortion box is kind of missing the point though. Dissapointment is pretty much guaranteed.

I remember sitting with him in his house as he spent hours running it through his Mesa Dual Rectifier trying to get a decent sound out of it. If a Mesa V-Twin sounds **** through a Dual Rec there's no hope for it in my opinion.

Voodu Child

Doctor J wrote:

That's the thing, you see he wasn't playing it into bad amps either (he's the guy who now has the Diezel)

Well, genuinely, whether its good or not, i guess it cant be worth what you have to pay to bag one these days - if you need an extra sound, E300-400 will buy you a whole new preamp.

I'd like to try one and see what I make of it, but honestly, if there's a better overdrive pedal than my (fairly) cheapish mxr ZW, i havent played it yet, and ive played maxons and tubescreamers and the like...

I guess different strokes for different folks - theres 20 pages of reviews for the v-twin on HC, and they are all in around the 9/10. I know HC reviews are worth squat at the best of times, but I guess some people have found a use for it.

Voodu Child

John wrote:

I remember sitting with him in his house as he spent hours running it through his Mesa Dual Rectifier trying to get a decent sound out of it. If a Mesa V-Twin sounds **** through a Dual Rec there's no hope for it in my opinion.

Well, thats what i was getting at. Running it through a dual rec is pretty much missing the point - from what i hear, its designed to give a mesa-ish bite to non mesa amps, dirty up old fenders etc.

But anyhow - I dont have shares in mesa So if you say it sounds sh1t, it sounds sh1t. I'd still like to give one a bash through the uni to see for myself

Eoin Madsen

voodoo_child wrote:

Without wanting to sound like a zealot, if Randall Smith puts a 12AX7 in a pedal, im inclined to believe it's doing something other than looking good on the ad.

I'm sure it's doing something, but it sure ain't doing the same thing the valves inside an amp are doing.

Voodu Child

Eoin Madsen wrote:

I'm sure it's doing something, but it sure ain't doing the same thing the valves inside an amp are doing.

Well, honestly, I dont know what they ARE doing, I might find out if i can be bothered.

But dont forget that 12AX7s werent designed specifically for guitar preamps, or indeed to produce distortion in guitar amps. So while you are might be saying 'what the hell are they putting those in a stompbox for?' , theres probably some old vacuum tube guy saying 'what the hell are they putting those in guitar preamps for?'

I hope you see my point, just because they arent being used in a way that youre familiar with, doesnt mean they arent doing what they say they are doing - its all just a means to an end, and in this case the end is clipping the signal in a particular way.

Doctor J

voodoo_child wrote:

Well, thats what i was getting at. Running it through a dual rec is pretty much missing the point - from what i hear, its designed to give a mesa-ish bite to non mesa amps, dirty up old fenders etc.

He tried it with some Marshalls, Fenders and a Laney IIRC during rehearsals with him, it never did anything to justify the hype. It wasn't bad by any means, it just wasn't anything amazing.

Heavy bastard too

Eoin Madsen

voodoo_child wrote:

I hope you see my point, just because they arent being used in a way that youre familiar with, doesnt mean they arent doing what they say they are doing - its all just a means to an end, and in this case the end is clipping the signal in a particular way.

I do, and I hope you see mine.

They are hardly unaware that people will assume that the valves serve the same function as a valve in an amp would, which is impossible in this instance. They may add clipping in a certain way, but it is not the exact same way as in a high voltage circuit.

And, irrespective of it's application, a 12AX7/ECC83 valve was designed to operate with a couple of hundred volts on the plate. The 12V figure comes up because it can operate as the filament voltage. Much less or more on the filament would kill the valve pretty fast. It also happens to be a perfect voltage for transistors. While I'm sure it's been put to some use (and I'm sure they can and will talk up that use), it's a little hard to get past the fact that this is the cheapest way that you can possibly include a valve inside a device.

Voodu Child

Eoin Madsen wrote:

I do, and I hope you see mine.

Aye, i see your point alright, but do you not concede that it is at all possible that even running a 12AX7 at 12V can be used in some way that clips a signal (and/or does other things to it) in a way that differs from a diode sufficiently or interestingly enough to be worth the application?

The number of overdrive pedals (soldano, analogman, bk butler, ron black, tonebone, etc etc) using 12AX7s is just too big to assume they are all cynical marketing ploys with a valve in them for show surely? A lot of these companies are 'serious' boutique pedal makers, not the kind to be pulling cynical marketing stunts..

Grolschevik

Eoin Madsen wrote:

And, irrespective of it's application, a 12AX7/ECC83 valve was designed to operate with a couple of hundred volts on the plate. The 12V figure comes up because it can operate as the filament voltage. Much less or more on the filament would kill the valve pretty fast. It also happens to be a perfect voltage for transistors. While I'm sure it's been put to some use (and I'm sure they can and will talk up that use), it's a little hard to get past the fact that this is the cheapest way that you can possibly include a valve inside a device.

What do you make of this, Eoin? From Seymour Duncan about their Twin Tube pedal with valves in it. Mate of mine just got one, and it sounds pretty damn good, whether or not the valve is actually doing anything. Not convinced that it's €250 worth of good, but still... Do you reckon this is just Duncan marketing bull?

"The high-plate voltage and 100% vacuum tube signal path allows the tubes to operate at their fullest potential and provide maximum dynamic range. The means you get the most gain and all the smooth tone you expect from a high-quality tube preamp. Two channels provide versatility. True bypass. Fully encapsulated toroidal transformer for quiet operation. Heavy duty steel chassis."

"High-quality, two-channel, guitar preamp. Uses a duet of premium, mil-spec, subminiature, USA-made Phillips-Sylvania® 6021 dual triode tubes."

"Also, unlike some “tube” stomp boxes that only use the tubes as a clipping diode, the Twin Tube Classic employs a 100% vacuum tube signal path with a high voltage power supply."

"You may be wondering why the Twin Tube Classic uses a 16-volt AC transformer instead of a common 9-volt DC adaptor or even a battery. The Twin Tube Classic relies on an internal transformer to obtain the high voltage the dual triodes require. The transformer cannot work on DC voltage. One alternative would be to run the tubes on low voltage in “starved plate mode.” Here, the tubes are used like a clipping diode and do not actually amplify. Though starved plate voltage is used in some inexpensive tube stomp boxes, it is not true tube amplification. The circuitry in the Twin Tube Classic enables the tubes to work like the tubes in the preamp section of a high-quality tube amplifier. Another alternative would be to supply a dedicated AC power cord and an internal high voltage transformer or a DC-to-DC switching converter. However, these options would make the Twin Tube Classic larger, heavier and more costly. With the Twin Tube Classic you are getting
true tube tone AND tube amplification with minimal size, weight and cost."

http://www.seymourduncan.com/images/sfx_03_manual.pdf

Eoin Madsen

Grolschevik wrote:

What do you make of this, Eoin? From Seymour Duncan about their Twin Tube pedal with valves in it. Mate of mine just got one, and it sounds pretty damn good, whether or not the valve is actually doing anything. Not convinced that it's €250 worth of good, but still... Do you reckon this is just Duncan marketing bull?

No, it's an actual valve preamp made into a floor pedal. The power supply is a bit convoluted (transforming from 230v-16v externally and then from 16v-100/200v internally) but otherwise it is what it claims to be.

Grolschevik

Interesting. It sounds like modern Laney preamps, as far as I remember.