Sets V Draws - What to do?

ronanp

Been losing some massive pots lately in this situation, and last night lost my entire ppp account, largely due to post-loss tilting!

I find when I hit low sets (say, I see a cheap flop with 44, 55, 66) my winnings are decent - I can bet big on low flops and still get callers from top pair, even overcards, in multi way pots.

However high sets (QQQ, KKK, AAA) i'm finding a bit more troublesome. I bring it on myself as I view these hands as monsters, and when i've raised pre-flop and got one or max two callers and hit a hand like that I tend to semi-slow play them, assuming that i'll be up against non-flush or straight draws often enough to make this profitable. Am I very wrong here?

e.g Last night Tribeca 1/2 NLHE, I'm on the small blind with 148 (its only my second hand of the night!) and I pick up Kh Kc. 2 limpers before me, I make it 10. BB folds, utg limper calls, utg+1 limper calls.

Flop: 3h Ks 9h (or similar!)

I'm first to act and bet about 12. (pot is what, 32?). With top pair here i'd maybe bet the pot, but typically for me now im terrified of not maximising my winnings. UTG calls, other chap folds, turn is a blank. I assume now I should be betting half the pot or so but I get greedy and bet about 20, which is called. River comes down a low heart and i'm worried. Feel I have to bet so I bet 25, he comes over the top (he's got me well covered) and me being retarded calls, he turns over Ah2h.

Was fairly ****ed off at myself for giving him the right to stay in there with the flush draw, naturally. So what should I have done? Bet big on the flop with top set to push him off and take the pot down there and then?

phantom_lord

you realise that the more you bet the bigger the pot is right?

don't slow play on drawing boards, you've a great hand so build a pot, certainly don't bet 12 into a 32 pot, especially if you can't fold when you know your beat.

ronanp

Cheers, yer dead right and obviously so. Just would've been kicking myself if i'd taken the pot uncontested after the flop. Although I'd be up a few quid instead of blowing all my cash!

El Stuntman

ronanp wrote:

Cheers, yer dead right and obviously so. Just would've been kicking myself if i'd taken the pot uncontested after the flop. Although I'd be up a few quid instead of blowing all my cash!

you have three problems here:

(1) you played the hand badly by underbetting the flop and turn, thus providing donkey with the implied odds to keep calling and stack you when he hit

(2) you went on tilt after and lost your entire roll

(3) your BRM obviously sucks if you were able to blow your entire roll in one night

problems 2 and 3 are far bigger in a wider sense and you should probably think long and hard about them before you come back to the tables

FutureGuy

I'm pretty new and I'm sure my advice will be shot down by those more in the know, but its just my opinion.

I was in the same boat as you when I started, getting caught to many times by guys with AXs hitting flushes, and I had to change the way I played them.

When I flop top set and there are 2 of the same suit on the board, I try to wrap it up there and then by betting the size of the pot, thus denying them the proper odds to call your raise if they are chasing a flush. If they call and hit their flush, then play them all night long. If its a rainbow flop, I would consider betting less and keep them in the pot.

Is this bad/good advice?

ronanp

El Stuntman wrote:

(3) your BRM obviously sucks if you were able to blow your entire roll in one night

problems 2 and 3 are far bigger in a wider sense and you should probably think long and hard about them before you come back to the tables

Can't argue with anything there. Worse again, I dont have a 'bankroll'! I had about 400 dollars in the account, which was accumulated the day before. Desperate stuff.

phantom_lord

it's scared advice, you're way ahead of a flush draw, you want them calling all day long, not betting them out of the pot.

and yeah, I meant to say what el stuntman said about the brm.

you should probably c/c river btw,

TacT

pot flop, shove turn

BigCityBanker

I posted this on the BB thread the other evening.... how do you like the play from the guy that flopped top set? This is how not to play your set.

My god the SB butchered his hand - thankfully.

Holdem No Limit $0.25/$0.50
[Feb 5 18:18:44] : Hand Start.
[Feb 5 18:18:44] : Seat 1 : bluffer2u has $72.06
[Feb 5 18:18:44] : Seat 2 : Gozena has $45.31
[Feb 5 18:18:44] : Seat 3 : chris0 has $98.25
[Feb 5 18:18:44] : Seat 4 : BCB has $79.77
[Feb 5 18:18:44] : Seat 5 : beat it! has $35.45
[Feb 5 18:18:44] : Seat 6 : spp8791 has $43.87
[Feb 5 18:18:44] : BCB is the dealer.
[Feb 5 18:18:48] : beat it! posted small blind.
[Feb 5 18:18:50] : spp8791 refused to post big blind.
[Feb 5 18:18:51] : bluffer2u posted big blind.
[Feb 5 18:18:51] : Game [197899] started with 5 players.
[Feb 5 18:18:51] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Feb 5 18:18:51] : Seat 4 : BCB has As 9s
[Feb 5 18:18:54] : Gozena called $0.50 and raised $0.50
[Feb 5 18:18:56] : chris0 folded.
[Feb 5 18:18:58] : BCB called $1
[Feb 5 18:19:04] : beat it! called $0.75 and raised $1
[Feb 5 18:19:16] : bluffer2u folded.
[Feb 5 18:19:18] : Gozena called $1
[Feb 5 18:19:21] : BCB called $1
[Feb 5 18:19:21] : Dealing flop.
[Feb 5 18:19:21] : Board cards [4d 2c Ts]
[Feb 5 18:19:25] : beat it! checked.
[Feb 5 18:19:28] : Gozena bet $0.50
[Feb 5 18:19:30] : BCB called $0.50
[Feb 5 18:19:35] : beat it! called $0.50
[Feb 5 18:19:37] : Dealing turn.
[Feb 5 18:19:37] : Board cards [4d 2c Ts 7s]
[Feb 5 18:19:40] : beat it! checked.
[Feb 5 18:19:43] : Gozena bet $5
[Feb 5 18:19:45] : BCB called $5
[Feb 5 18:19:52] : beat it! called $5 and raised $5
[Feb 5 18:19:57] : Gozena called $5
[Feb 5 18:19:59] : BCB called $5
[Feb 5 18:19:59] : Dealing river.
[Feb 5 18:19:59] : Board cards [4d 2c Ts 7s Js]
[Feb 5 18:20:13] : beat it! bet $10
[Feb 5 18:20:17] : Gozena called $10 and raised $22.81 and is All-in
[Feb 5 18:20:24] : BCB called $32.81 and raised $34.46 and is All-in
[Feb 5 18:20:37] : beat it! has 10 seconds to respond.
[Feb 5 18:20:42] : beat it! called $12.95 and is All-in
[Feb 5 18:20:42] : Showdown!
[Feb 5 18:20:42] : Seat 4 : BCB has As 9s
[Feb 5 18:20:44] : Seat 4 : BCB has As 9s
[Feb 5 18:20:44] : BCB has Flush AJT97
[Feb 5 18:20:44] : Seat 2 : Gozena has 9h 8h
[Feb 5 18:20:44] : Gozena has Straight JT987
[Feb 5 18:20:44] : BCB wins $19.26 with Flush AJT97
[Feb 5 18:20:44] : Seat 4 : BCB has As 9s
[Feb 5 18:20:44] : BCB has Flush AJT97
[Feb 5 18:20:44] : Seat 5 : beat it! has Th Tc
[Feb 5 18:20:44] : beat it! has 3 of a Kind: 10s
[Feb 5 18:20:44] : Seat 2 : Gozena has 9h 8h
[Feb 5 18:20:44] : Gozena has Straight JT987
[Feb 5 18:20:44] : BCB wins $104.31 with Flush AJT97

Killme00

BigCityBanker wrote:

I This is how not to play your set.

Yikes

gocall01

phantom_lord wrote:

it's scared advice, you're way ahead of a flush draw, you want them calling all day long, not betting them out of the pot.

and yeah, I meant to say what el stuntman said about the brm.

you should probably c/c river btw,

Surely if you are giving them the odds to call and catch the flush that is bad.
If you pot the flop and they call with the flush draw, at least it is they are making the mistake and over time it will be a winner for you and a loser for them.
I also pot the turn to compound the flush drawers mistakes.

Personnally I prefer to win a small pot than lose a big one.

Can you please expand on your "it's scared advice" line.
I want to know if I am really missing something here.

And BTW I am scared, scared they will catch the flush without having to pay for it!:eek:

phantom_lord

gocall01 wrote:

Surely if you are giving them the odds to call and catch the flush that is bad.
If you pot the flop and they call with the flush draw, at least it is they are making the mistake and over time it will be a winner for you and a loser for them.
I also pot the turn to compound the flush drawers mistakes.

Personnally I prefer to win a small pot than lose a big one.

Can you please expand on your "it's scared advice" line.
I want to know if I am really missing something here.

And BTW I am scared, scared they will catch the flush without having to pay for it!:eek:

what I mean is, betting 2/3 of the pot+ and them calling is gonna make you far more money than running scared of a draw and overbetting the pot to make them fold. you want people calling on draws at the incorrect odds, they're gonna miss most of the time.plus all the money you make when they try to bluff their missed draw.

valor

you need to learn better bet sizing

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Hitman Actual

As the cliched (but very important) saying goes, big pots are for big hands. When you (the OP) say that you're trying to maximise your winnings with these big hands, you should be doing it by getting the other guys stack in the middle. Betting small isn't going to do it. So size your bets in a way to build the pot and get the money in, and you'll generally be cutting down on their odds to call at the same. Usually when they fold, they didn't have a hand that was going to pay you anyway.

Not sure that I've explained that very well; HJ is very good on bet-sizing and would be more help.

El Stuntman

LuckyLloyd wrote:

In my opinion, the above sentance is symptomatic of a crucial error in thinking. If you would bet 3 quarters to full pot with top pair, you should also bet a similiar amount when you flop top set. If you would bet out with top set, you should also bet out when you flop a big draw. If you play all your hands in a similiar and aggressive fashion you will become difficult to read and should generate action on your good hands. This is through your opponents thinking that you always have a wide range when you bet - thus paying you off with weaker holdings. Playing weak when you have it and strong when you don't would be a very exploitable trait in your game.

If anything, you should bet less or check for pot control with top pair in many situations - or your weaker holdings in general. The attitude of being afraid to lose value leads to situations where you are playing small pots with big hands and big pots with weak and vulnerable hands. I would bet about 25 into the pot on that flop, and then about 70ish on the turn. If he comes along for the ride it is fine - he will be making massive mistakes - and you will be inflating the pot while holding the best hand.

Get aggressive in most situations you play - do your own betting and build your own pots, play a wider range of hands in a similiar fashion. You will make more money over time.

excellent post and should be stickied

ronanp

Cheers for all the replies lads, they've all been very helpful, back to basics with me next payday!