Questions from Super before granting Licence

bullets

Applied for a .17 Licence for a CZ a while back.
Grrrr Just got a phone call off my local FO thats ruined my day.

He said the Super had a few questions as he was concerned about this
distance factor while travelling with the rifle.
(I travel from Limerick to Midlands with a shooting buddy useing his car
as I dont own a Car of my own)

I was told he was concerned as most poeple travel locally to the range !!!!!
(There is no LOCAL rifle ranges in Limerick) He wanted
to know if there was a Gun Safe in the Car and what other security
arangements there was. I told him I was not required to have a safe
in the car and that when we did travel with the friends .22 that the bolt
was removed and stored seperatly.

He also asked about an monitored alarm in the house !!!!!!! I dont him I
did not need one for a rimfire rifle but he said the Super had asked and
that some sort of officer may need to inspect the home for security etc.

I had mentioned to my FO that those questions sounding like questions
that would be asked if getting a Pistol and NOT a rimfire rifle to which
he responded that he was only trying to answer the questions the super
had asked and he tried to ensure me I had done nothing wrong my end.
(Which I already know)

This is VERY frustrating having to deal with people should already
know I dont need all the things they are asking my about.

If in the (hopefully unlikely) event that the cert is refused is there a way to Apeal.
Surely it would be discrimination based on the grounds that
my Buddy already has a Licence for his rifle and is a Midlands member
same as myself and we travel in his car. If its OK for Him why not
for me ?

Be much easier to chat to the Super him/herself rather than having
any conversations I have with the FO sent back via chinease whispers.

~B

Sparks

bullets wrote:

I was told he was concerned as most poeple travel locally to the range !!!!!
(There is no LOCAL rifle ranges in Limerick)

He may only know of local hunting grounds and/or clay pigeon ranges.

He wanted
to know if there was a Gun Safe in the Car and what other security
arangements there was. I told him I was not required to have a safe
in the car

Actually, there's no ruling on that anywhere, and under both the old and the new laws, if the super tells you (as in, you specifically, not a general condition), then the odds are the that's how it is.

To be more specific - under the new Firearms Acts, the super can tell you that with the full force of the law behind him; under the old Firearms Acts, it's not explicitly been ruled upon but in the judgements from Dunne v. Donoghue, it was spelled out that while blanket preconditions can't be dreamt up by supers or commissioners, that individual preconditions are a whole other ball game.

[qutoe]He also asked about an monitored alarm in the house !!!!!!! I dont him I
did not need one for a rimfire rifle[/quote]
Again, there's no ruling on this, and in general if the super says you need it, odds are that's how it'll wind up being.

Telling the super that he's wrong, by the way, is possibly a nonoptimal solution.

that some sort of officer may need to inspect the home for security etc.

That happens. It's odd for a rimfire, I agree, but then mine was inspected for an ISSF .22 and an ISSF air rifle, so it's not unheard of.

This is VERY frustrating having to deal with people should already
know I dont need all the things they are asking my about.

It is fustrating, but you're going to have to accept it because the super is entitled by law to ask about almost anything regarding the application. Make sure they have the original details right and that he knows it's a rimfire rifle - but I wouldn't be calling him to tell him he's an eejit who doesn't know what he's doing, if you get my drift.

And look at the bright side - in a year, this will probably all be far worse, so you're having the easy time of it now!

Sparks

bullets wrote:

If in the (hopefully unlikely) event that the cert is refused is there a way to Apeal.

Yup, you just go down to the District Court and lodge an appeal.
First, however, you must have something from him in writing saying that you've been refused, and on what grounds; OR three months have to have gone by since the application was made without getting a refusal or confirmation.

Surely it would be discrimination based on the grounds that
my Buddy already has a Licence for his rifle and is a Midlands member
same as myself and we travel in his car. If its OK for Him why not
for me ?

Er, not likely, at least not based on what you've told us so far. Circumstances can be different from one person to the next quite legitimately, regardless of friendships or anything else.

Be much easier to chat to the Super him/herself rather than having
any conversations I have with the FO sent back via chinease whispers.

So go chat to the Super. You have a perfect right to do so.

sidneyreilly

I have always been of the oppinnion that everyone should have a gun safe anyway. If nothing else but for their own safety.

Jurys still out on the monitored alarm, I'm not sure of what value they really are

Having a safe in the car is new though!? Anyone else heard this one before? It's arguable that a locked boot of a saloon is a safe.

I'll agree with Sparks on this, go and see the super.

bullets

I'm always as polite as I can be while on the phone to whoever I
am dealing with. I Curse Hiss and f and blind and let the blood pressure
boil only after I have hung up the phone!

If the super does want to insist in a safe in the Car I cant exactly tell
the owner of the car I travel in to get one!!!. When he does not need
one for his own rifle.

Best I could do is get a small strong box and lock the bolt in it but
there no way the buddy will want to Mount something like that to the car
chassey etc.

I already spend 230 Euro on a safe for the home and bolted it to wall and floor.
I have no problems with safty aspects like that.

Over all I have so far spent (inc rifle price) 1465 Euros between club
membership/rifle/scope/bipod/safe. So theres no way I can afford to
spend more money on getting an Alarm especially a monitored one.
I also cant afford a car but its next on the list of things to save for
along with getting a garden wall built and a new PC.

If they do insist I could Unbolt the Gunsafe in my house and stick
it in the buddies car as a temp measure each time we travel but I dont
like the idea of rifles in something like that while driving. Would prefer
it to be in a hard case so the optics dont get bumped around the place
by the journey.

~B

Vegeta

bullets, from your posts here on boards it is obvious that you are level headed and have gone about things the right way.

Now in fairness there are a lot of things to consider. Look at this from the Supers point of view, he doesn't know you from Adam, do you live in the rough part of Limerick where house break ins are very frequent. So he would naturally be a little sketchy about giving a firearm to someone in that area. Meet the man and talk to him in a calm well prepared manner.

if he is worried about you travelling to the midlands, inform him again it is the closest practical facility to join. Ask him where the other ranges are, especially for the guys licensed to use full bore pitols for target shooting

If he dictates you should have a gun safe, that is reasonable enough. I think you'd agree here

If he asks for a monitored alarm, politely ask why he wants you get one, get him to explain why, bad area, high crime rate there etc. Ask does everyone in a similar situation as yourself have a monitored alarm. By similar situation I mean, living in the same area, similar calibre firearm etc

If he asks about safe storage in the car there are simple things you can do, like you mentioned, its locked in the boot with the bolts removed, and buy a cheap trigger lock. you could buy a small cheap storage box to keep the ammo and bolts in.

Again be polite, prepared and calm. The only one I personally would have an objection to is a monitored alarm cos the eircom ones are stupid money. there are kits you can install yourself and they text your mobile when the alarm goes off and they are only about 400 euro but still its not ideal

bullets

Vegeta wrote:

If he asks about safe storage in the car there are simple things you can do, like you mentioned, its locked in the boot with the bolts removed, and buy a cheap trigger lock. you could buy a small cheap storage box to keep the ammo and bolts in.

The Trigger Lock I had not thought about thanks! must get me one of them too.

I think I will wait and see what the outcome is first. If things dont go smoothly
I will try make an appointment with the Super and FO so we can meet face to face
and maybe come to a compromise or at least discuss.

~B

17HMR

I had shot a 22LR for years on the basis of land permissions covering about 20 acres. When I went to add a 17HMR all of a sudden I was told that "with two rifles you'll need permissions covering at least 200 acres"... or go join a club. (I wonder would three guns need 2000 acres ?).

So I joined a club. I've no idea where that club's lands are, nor is it likely that I ever will, but at least the local constabulary are happy....and, sad though that is, it's all you have to worry about !

maglite

buy a cheep saf and say the mechanics of the firearm are stored in a safe during transit

the stock and tube however are not as with out the mechanics they are rendered uslesss

a safe may cost a 5er in a pound shop,,, we have no specs

Sparks

17HMR wrote:

I had shot a 22LR for years on the basis of land permissions covering about 20 acres. When I went to add a 17HMR all of a sudden I was told that "with two rifles you'll need permissions covering at least 200 acres"... or go join a club. (I wonder would three guns need 2000 acres ?).

...which you could now appeal in a District Court, but which in a few months could wind up on the Super's guidelines from the Commissioner so it'd have statute weight behind it.

So I joined a club. I've no idea where that club's lands are, nor is it likely that I ever will, but at least the local constabulary are happy....and, sad though that is, it's all you have to worry about !

Except for section 33 of course.
(That'd be the bit that says it's seven years in jail for shooting at targets when not on an authorised range...)

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

Except for section 33 of course.
(That'd be the bit that says it's seven years in jail for shooting at targets when not on an authorised range...)

Is there a fine with that little beauty aswell???

Sparks

maglite wrote:

a safe may cost a 5er in a pound shop,,, we have no specs

Yet.
And people trying this whole "ah, here's a loophole!" approach will probably just end up having the loophole closed with a sledgehammer that affects other stuff as well. And they won't need to wait for another firearms act either, the commissioner will have the authority to draft a one line note saying "BTW, all safes must now be commercially rated to XYZ standard, be bolted to the wall of the house or the chassis of the car and have to weigh a minimum of one tonne" and we're stuffed, and looking at least at a court case. And lads, court cases cost money and time and energy, and it's not like we have mountains of any of those lying about, and it's also not like we don't have an actual sport which could use them a lot more!

Vegeta wrote:

Is there a fine with that little beauty aswell???

Yup:

(20) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (18) of this section is liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €2,500 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or both, and
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €20,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years or both.

bullets

What I find crazy is that they wanted me
to be a member of a club BEFORE applying for a Licence
and they wanted to inpect my house (which they did) to make
sure I had a gun safe bolted down BEFORE applying for a licence.

Automatically thats 450 Euro membership fee for the club
for a newbie (and 250ish every year after)
and 230 Euro for the safe. If they turn you down for the cert
then your screwed cos its not much good being a member of a club
or having the safe if you cant even own your own gun. And the
local Super aint gonna refund you any money.

I have no problem paying the money upfront if at least
you know for certain that you will get your licence.
its only the fact that if something does go pear shaped then your out of pocket.

People I have talked to say that they way it is and its unfair
but surely there is something that can be done about it.


~B

Sparks

bullets wrote:

What I find crazy is that they wanted me
to be a member of a club BEFORE applying for a Licence
and they wanted to inpect my house (which they did) to make
sure I had a gun safe bolted down BEFORE applying for a licence.

Surely bullets, you have to have filled out the form before all of this started?
Or else you've told your FO that you want to apply and he's telling you what'll happen when you do?

And it's actually the only non-crazy thing that they want the inspection and the membership before issuing - obviously it's the only leverage they have!

Automatically thats 450 Euro membership fee for the club for a newbie (and 250ish every year after) and 230 Euro for the safe. If they turn you down for the cert then your screwed cos its not much good being a member of a club or having the safe if you cant even own your own gun. Ant the local Super aint gonna refund you any money.

Yup. There's the rub in all of this.

And this is where the clubs have to step up to the mark and work if they really want to see the sport survive, because you should never have to join a club and buy all the kit before getting to start with any sport. Beginners equipment should be a mandatory part of a club's inventory, not just some good idea someone gets ten years down the line.

17HMR

[QUOTE=SparksExcept for section 33 of course.
(That'd be the bit that says it's seven years in jail for shooting at targets when not on an authorised range...)[/QUOTE]

Targets ? Who said anything about targets ?
I "hunt and kill (pursuant to...... etc)" rabbits and critters and such

Umiq88

Bullets if it was me id get a bike lock and stick it through the breech and down through the mag well making it impossible for anyone to use the gun because the bolt is removed and if they got it they couldnt put it in. And only costs E2 in the local shop. Tell the super that it will be secured in transport and locked in a boot with the bolt removed and that someone will always be in the car with the guns and that your with and experienced shooter as well.

You really need to make an appointment from the super as you've said talk to him see where he's coming from. Then make up a list of his demands while he's there and ask him that this is what you've to do and once you've met them he'll grant you the licence and he cant go back on that. Appealing a refusal is going to cost you alot more than any demands your super will immplement and you dont want to get on his bad side if your looking for guns at a later date.

Dr Strange

Personally, I think having a house inspection and having a membership of a club (and/or permission to hunt on certain land) as a prerequisite to owing any kind of firearm is necessary.

I had my house inspected before obtaining permission to buy a deactivated collector's gun of WWII. The FO was looking for a monitored alarm system (no, I do not live in a "rough area") and for a gun safe so that the weapon (remember: deactivated) could be stored safely while I am on holidays. He also checked what type of windows and doors I had to see that everything was secure. And I must say, coming from Germany, I absolutely agree with any safety level that the Superintendent or the DoJ think necessary in order to own a firearm in this country.

As for deactivated weapons you can buy and own them in Germany without any licence as they are considered toys. However, over here it is quite clear that the Gardai and the DoJ are uber-careful with regards to firearms, and understandably so.

As for the club fees and money back: I must say I find the annual membership fees and once-off entrance fees prohibitive in most clubs. It's almost like joining a golf club but in the end that is up to the clubs to change.

Best,
Preusse

bullets

Sparks wrote:

Surely bullets, you have to have filled out the form before all of this started?
Or else you've told your FO that you want to apply and he's telling you what'll happen when you do?
.

I rang my FO around the same time as applying for the club membership.
The FO told me to contact him only after I had a club membership
number and gun number. He also told me not to contact him until this was
done and I had the safe installed. So this was all done before I filled in the cert application form.
This was 15th Jan. I only got a call this morning
with querys regarding Alarms and Car safes.

(edit: Fair play to the FO though he did have the manners to let me know
and to contact me promptly)

I have no problem doing whatever they want me to do as long as its
Reasonable and I can afford it,

I would have been much happier if all requirements were discussed
and listed up front at the time I was at the station getting the form filled out.
(well I only signed it, FO filled out the rest of it)

Another thing to note was I assumed that the FO would be an officer
or a Super but that rank of my FO is Garda. Dunno if this is normal or not.

When it comes to saftey while travelling to and from the range
If you have your bolt and ammo in a lock box in the car
then your going to have the Keys to that on you.
If you have a trigger lock on the gun in boot of the car then you are going to have the key to that on you.

If you get robbed they will take your keys. If your not with the car and the
gear is in the car then they will rob the box and gun and simply cut the lock off
and pry the lid of the lock box.

The only difference the locks and boxs will do is that whoever may try and rob you or the
gear may miss an item or they cannot assemble a working firearm there and then.


~B

bullets

Preusse wrote:

As for the club fees and money back: I must say I find the annual membership fees and once-off entrance fees prohibitive in most clubs.

I reckon there is a fierce high once off entrance fees to try and
put off any potential crazies that simply want to join the club
with the only intention of making it easier for them to obtain
stuff. If there is a high price they might not bother applying
for membership. Only poeple that may have a more serious
interest in the sport may join up.

Speaking to some people at the club they reackon there is a lot of
poeple that enquire about membership and they are only interested
in getting their hands on a hand gun and after quizzing them with
a few question they start to hear crazy reasons as to why they want
the gun such as home or personal protection etc etc.

~B

Clare gunner

Bullets,
PM me with your area or Super in Limericks name.If it was the guy I was dealing with you will have two chances of meeting him.....
Please DO ask him where there ARE any clubs in Limerick within the county or city limits,and if he says there are some ,ask him for a contact name or addy[as at this st if he says there are he is a LMF..:mad: ]
I can categorially say there are NONE within the Limerick reigon,out to 15 miles in any direction of Limerick."Lazy Dog" gun store out in Bruff is supposedly getting somthing going,but when.
You could compromise and buy a pair of LEO type handcuffs and cuff your guns to somthing strong in the boot.Point out it is a friends car,not your own and a strong box is not an option.As well as that wether you are robbed by somone determined to get the guns,point out will it matter wether they demand keys to a safe or cuffs,you will be giving them the keys as it says in Garda advice not to resist a robbery.;)
Personally,I would be onto NARGC about this one as well,as yet again a Super is making it up as he goes along.

Hallo Preusse, von noch ein Deutscher heir.:)
I see die Iren have been playing you around abit as well,with the gun laws.Deacts require a liscense sure.But not a safe or alarm and at a Supers discretion this can be"coverd" by another real firearms liscense.Or ignored totally.
In other words,Irish firearms law, it is not hard and fast like Germany where it is in law what you need in training,type of firearm you want,what class of safe you need depending on how many guns you have etc.Germany, if you have the paperwork,done the tests,etc the issuing authorithy will issue your waffenschein.Not suddenly find somthing else to add on,or make up the law as they go along.

[Lass dir ja nicht heir in Irland uber den Tisch zeihen;) Heir ist alles anders.
PM mir wenn Sie fragen haben.]
Grusse
Clare gunner

Sparks

Personally,I would be onto NARGC about this one as well,as yet again a Super is making it up as he goes along.

Which, in this case, he is perfectly within his rights as a superintendent to do...

thelurcher

He could say Pat Hayes' range is less than 30 miles from Limerick city centre - it's far from ideal for a rimfire though.

You don't seem to hear of people applying for a gun to hunt getting even half the hassle the paper punchers get?!

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

Which, in this case, he is perfectly within his rights as a superintendent to do...

How so Sparks? I havent been asked to put a safe in my car..Have you?
Is there some point in the current legislation that gives orders or guidelines on weapons transport???Maybe in the new legislation?Which is still not law yet.If in that case the Super is literally making up the law then as he sees fit.

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

How so Sparks? I havent been asked to put a safe in my car..Have you?

No, which means it's an individual precondition, which is permitted following the gun safes case (Dunne v. Donoghue) a few years back. So, ironically enough, this state of affairs came about because we chased after it. Be careful what you take court cases over, and all that.

Is there some point in the current legislation that gives orders or guidelines on weapons transport???Maybe in the new legislation?Which is still not law yet.If in that case the Super is literally making up the law then as he sees fit.

Nope, he's saying "before I give you a cert, I'm stipulating a precondition just for you". Which he is perfectly entitled to do under both the old and the new legislation.

Sparks

Judge's comment from the High Court part of Dunne:

I wish to state that this court expresses no concluded view as to how far a superintendent may go in the context of the exercise of his powers under s.4(b) of the Act of 1925 other than indicating that he may not impose preconditions of the nature sought to be imposed by the commissioner in this case and the commissioner is not entitled to interfere with the superintendent in the exercise of his functions under the Act.

And the judge's take on that in the Supreme Court:

That passage, admittedly obiter, would appear to suggest that, in the view of the learned High Court judge, it would be open to a superintendent, in the circumstances of a particular case, to stipulate that the holder of one or more firearms could be required, as a condition of being granted a licence, or obtaining a renewal of a licence, to keep the firearm or firearms, when not in use, locked in a firearms cabinet.