Some thoughts on C&C

elven

Since we have a fair amount of C&C threads these days, and I’m not sure just how much people are getting from the responses posted about their pictures, I was hoping to maybe encourage some thought about commenting on someone’s work. I definitely don’t want to approach this in a ‘this is how to do it’ authoritative, commanding, arrogant kind of way, but just maybe ask for a bit of thought to go into the feedback you might give someone about their pictures.


I recently read a post by Colin Jago, author of Photostream who always has something interesting to say about the thinking behind photography, and also art in general. Anyway, when I read this particular post, a lightbulb went on above my head because he just put into words something that had felt right, in the back of my mind, for a long time. He said:

“We are a funny lot, we human beings. We form groups that take on a life of their own and to which we suddenly owe loyalties. We like rules, and strive to make them up if they don’t apparently exist. We find ourselves using the words ‘ought’, ‘must, and ’should’, at the slightest provocation.
We seem to like sentences with ‘must’ in them.
Art is a voluntary undertaking.
It is about exploring.
It is an activity killed very easily killed by ‘must’.
Anytime I hear anybody in a discussion about art use ‘ought’, ‘must’ or ’should’, I immediately understand that the discussion isn’t about art at all.“

So, I made a mental note of it, and went on my merry way.

But today, I saw a comment left on iconnect’s Liverpool shots, which went like this:

“Being quite honest, there is NOTHING special there. You should go do some research on architectural photography, just to see how good you can actually get, some advice for one of the photos you took; the one of the factory, you should have walked around to camera right and taken the photo at an angle so you didnt get teh flat visage of the factory and you would have gotten the docks in the frame and the shadow would have been more favourable. You have a good eye for photos but dont know how to take full advantage of it!”

I can see that it’s meant in a nice(ish) way… with the ‘you have a good eye’ comment tagged onto the end of the sentence. The advice is also fairly sound – of course, if you want to do great architectural photography, for inspiration you can go and look at well known, successful, architectural photographers’ work. You can also try shooting from different angles to see what looks best. But this comment is a prime example of the old ‘This is how x does it, who is considered great, and therefore it is how you should try to do it too’ (that’s no incidental use of the word ‘should’) – never mind the opening phrase, with the emphasis on the word ‘nothing’. Do I even need to try and point out why you wouldn’t want to say that about someone’s photos? I don’t believe its true that you should only say something if you have something nice to say – BUT – a comment like that isn’t going to help anyone, in the context of an amateur social photography forum. It may be throwaway to you, you may think that it’s being cruel to be kind, but surely, SURELY, there’s a better way to help someone to improve and to encourage them to try and improve, than telling them that.

So, in general, I have a few thoughts/suggestions about comments on other people’s pictures. These are my personal guidelines, and I’m not presenting them in any way as rules, I just thought that it might be useful since a lot of people admit to wondering just what to write in a C&C thread.

• If the picture doesn’t do anything for you, don’t say “This picture does nothing for me”. If a picture doesn’t do anything for you – why? Is it because you’re not interested in the subject? Is it because you don’t like colour or bw or macro/landscape/street genre or HDR or high contrast or square format? If you can’t put that aside and try to consider the image beyond those restrictions, why bother saying anything at all? For example – I’m not keen on fashion photography. I just don’t get it. But if I know that someone is trying for a particular effect, I can attempt to provide some helpful feedback on the shot based on that criteria, which has nothing to do with whether I like it or not. If it leaves you cold because you don’t think it’s been done well from an angle/cropping/exposure point of view, these are things that you can provide as suggestions to be considered in future, or there may be some post processing that would help – like further cropping, or contrast/saturation type stuff.
  
  
• Take into consideration any limitations that the author has told you about in their comments. Like the one I mentioned above – iconnect said that he couldn’t do much more than snapshots because he had to lead his blind brother in law about the place. Doesn’t sound like he had the chance to go round trying loads of different angles. The comments that the photographer gives when they are showing their pictures can also sometimes give you a clue of what they might have been trying to achieve – if they were trying to show poverty and desolation, there’s no point in saying ‘well, it doesn’t look very pretty’… and there’s always the possibility of asking them what they were trying for, rather than making up your own mind what the intention was and deciding that it failed on that.
  
  
• In general, I try to be considerate of the tone that comes across in my comments. I try to remember that it’s all completely subjective, and there’s never any need to tell someone that they’ve done something wrong, or that suggestions I make are anything more than just my suggestions – that’s pretty much where the ‘should’ comes into it, I think. There’s nothing worse than someone who presents their opinion as if it’s not an opinion, but a rule, because they think they know better than everyone else – that’s pretty much never the case. Even a pro who’s been taking pictures for 25 years might be able to give you suggestions and share their experience, but they can’t tell you this is wrong and that is right. Their opinion is still just an opinion, as is mine, and as is the guy who bought a camera last year and enjoys looking at other people’s pictures’…

On a wee side note, I know there are a few regulars who don’t give any kind of feedback because they don’t believe their opinion is worth sharing. I won’t repeat the last bit about how it simply is – but just ask that the next time you see a C&C thread, check out the picture and have a think about it. I’m pretty sure most people would be grateful if you shared your thoughts.

If there are any other suggestions for more guidelines or thoughts on commenting, I’d love to hear them. I know a few people said recently that they thought the comments on here were slightly bland, and although I definitely prefer not to see people’s images being ripped to shreds by self-gratifying know-it-all so-called ‘critique’, we could all make a bit of an effort to be a bit more thoughtful and put some more consideration into what we tell someone about their work.

Rojo

When's the book coming out, Jules?

"C&C Etiquette vol. 1"


Joking! :P I think you're right on most of your points that you've made..


EDIT: also I feel a bit stupid not really adding anything, but you've pretty much covered everything..

FreeAnd..

Thats some detailed critique of the critiquing elven....hats off..

Morlar

Julie - I think you hit the nail on the head with that. Not to go offtopic but I have noticed (also on other forums) that the people giving the most patronising / preachey & condescending & ignorant slatings of other peoples work tend to be the people who dont post their own for review.

thebaz

Morlar wrote:

I have noticed (also on other forums) that the people giving the most patronising / preachey & condescending & ignorant slatings of other peoples work tend to be the people who dont post their own for review.

Mmmm -- i wonder why ?

m_stan

Julie, I agree with all you've stated above. C&C threads are very useful for the likes of myself who is really only beginning with photography. I get very little time with my camera, and when I ask for comments I genuinely want constructive criticism of my work so I can progress to the level that some of you are already at. Sometimes the feedback provided here is overly negative, sometimes not very helpful, and I think that's regretable due to the obvious skillset of some of the regulars around here.

One thing related I was thinking very recently is that there should be a separate C&C Forum under Photography since there are so many requests for C&C now being made. I know this isn't the place to suggest this, but I thought I'd mention it to see if there was any support for this.

magicbastarder

i briefly skirted with the idea of joining a camera club, but didn't, as i was put off by (what little i saw of) the photo critique ethos there. basically, all photos seemed to be ultimately judged on technical criteria, which is kinda understandable, as the club needed to be as welcoming as possible to newbies, while remaining scrupulously fair.

essentially, what it resulted in was a rather soulless judging - excellent photos were criticised for slight focus issues, while they couldn't fault photos which were perfectly exposed, focussed, and composed, but which still lacked spark.

so i've since been wary of judging a photo purely on technical merits, and will quite often fall back to an (unvoiced) 'does nothing for me' judgement, as often what draws you to a photo is irrational or not easily put into words.

sineadw

This is something I've been wondering about. I still see myself as very new to this, and I'm never quite sure my opinions even make sense, never mind whether they have value in a wider context. I'm learning as I go here, and I'll admit its sometimes intimidating to voice something when you're in the company of people who know a lot more on the subject and have a hell of a lot more experience. I don't know if people want to know how I *feel* about a photo or if they want technical feedback. Equally, it makes it a tadge scary to post my own stuff and hopefully learn from C&C when some people are so very critical.

DeVore

Terrific post Elven... I wholeheartedly agree.

A few really fast points because I'm running out the door...

1. I completely agree about everyones opinion being valid. I've been shooting for like, 5 days total but I dont feel in the slightest bit awkward about saying "this picture is nice because" or "maybe you could try" because while I dont know how to do it, I know what I like. I hope other people will do the same for mine.

2. People who put others down are really trying to lift themselves up in the eyes of others. Dont be that person.

3. Shoot for yourself. I love taking pictures, I love looking at them and remembering places or things or times or just liking the picture. I honestly dont shoot to make other people go "wow, thats a nice pic" but if they do, then of course that makes it all the better. Ultimately I think everyone should shoot for themselves and share with others. I'm having a ball experimenting and surprising myself but mostly I'm enjoying not really knowing what I'm doing and learning as I go along, lol....

4. Not being a dick is important. The world has enough dicks. If you dont like a pic then by all means tell me "I dont like that picture, it does nothing for me" but also tell me why and dont tell me this in a nasty way, because while I want to know what you think, I didnt shoot it for you and I ultimately dont care if a dick hates my pics.

DeV.

DeVore

sineadw wrote:

This is something I've been wondering about. I still see myself as very new to this, and I'm never quite sure my opinions even make sense, never mind whether they have value in a wider context. I'm learning as I go here, and I'll admit its sometimes intimidating to voice something when you're in the company of people who know a lot more on the subject and have a hell of a lot more experience. I don't know if people want to know how I *feel* about a photo or if they want technical feedback. Equally, it makes it a tadge scary to post my own stuff and hopefully learn from C&C when some people are so very critical.

From my pov...
1. I definitely want to know what you and others think of photos I shoot.

2. I havent read much thats overly negative here funnily enough, if I see people ripping into others in a nasty way, I will put my Digital Size 10 in their Virtual ass. Civility is a Boards-wide requirement. Not an option.

DeV.

paudie

Fair play Julie for getting this up and running. But I'm not so sure I agree with you fully.

I just think that there are some "rules" that can be pointed out to people looking for C&C, that isn't to say that they are layed in stone, for me most of the fun from photography comes from breaking the rules and experimenting. I just don't think that we should just ignore these rules. I'd think that we should use them as rough guidelines to go about critiquing shots.

This is pretty specialised I know but bear with me. In surf phogotography you generally don't want to have the rider centred, but instead show where they are going on the wave this is just something I've picked up from the C&C I've gotten from other forums, you also generally use a horizontal crop instead of a portrait one, but there is definitely always exceptions to these rules.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we should bear in mind some type of rules so we can have a framework to base our C&C on, but always be open to new ideas about what the photog might be trying to get across.

Hope that came across alright, sounds good in my head anyway

Xios

em... i wrote a big long comment, and i have no idea where i submitted it to, cause it ain't here

elven

Woo, I'm so happy I've actually had a response here.

I think I typed myself out earlier so no big reply for now, but just to pick up on your point paudie - I know what you mean about having methods that commonly work that are useful for pointing out to beginners, like the old 'give the subject room to move into' - but what I'm saying is - how you put it across. Rather than saying "You should frame it with the subject opposite from the direction they are travelling in", you could say "it sometimes helps to give the subject room to move into by framing it with them in the opposite corner" - does that make sense, it's in the way you put it across as if it's a suggestion for them to try and see how it feels, rather than a 'should' or a 'must'...

It's not about ignoring the rules. It's about not telling people there's only one way - your way - to do it.

Sinead - just give a response that feels appropriate to you, whether it's technical or emotional, don't give a toss about anyone else! At the end of the day, if it was me, I would never tell you to bugger off for giving an honest and thoughtful opinion about my picture. And I'm pretty sure that's true 99.999999% of the time

paudie

So in conclusion.
Play Nice.

elven

Sheesh. I could have said that earlier and saved my lunch hour

Valentia

Excellent thread Julie.

Critiques are something I have never felt comfortable giving. I'm not sure why that is. I can see the worth, even genius, in photographs that do nothing for me personally. I suppose I should just say that. Hmm.

Like you I find it very difficult to see anything in fashion and model photography. It is extremely rare to come across anything in this area that doesn't scream "look at my clever lighting", "do I look sullen enough", etc etc. It is just so false to me, so I just keep my gob shut.

I do think it is important to critique photographs that have glaring unintentional technical flaws. Over/under exposure, no obvious subject, centering a subject when pointing out the "rule of thirds" would make an obvious improvement. Sometimes there are things that people miss. When you are working on an image for a while you can miss something obvious like a twig intruding at the edge of a frame, for example.

Every photographer absolutely needs to know how a camera works. Once they know that they can do what they like. If they are happy then that's it. There can be a danger that some think that they know all there is to know and this is the real pain for the rest of us. This leads to outrageously pompous, condescending baloney. I haven't seen very much here but I have elsewhere.

On the other side I'm not that inclined to post pics for C&C's that often. I do occasionally, like tonight, but a lot of the time I am happy with my finished work. That does not mean that it could not be improved, that the saturation is too high, that the blacks are too black but they are usually like that because that's the way I like them. That's all.

One thing I will say is that my photography and post processing has improved enormously from listening to people on this forum. My eye for different subjects has has been nourished here. And what I like most about this little abode is that people can disagree, even argue at times but we don't take it personally. It's good to be frank and it's good to be allowed to be frank. There are boundaries though.

There's a million others things I'd like to say but I'm way over my limit already.

Valentia

Oh yeah, one more thing. The emotional side as Sinead says, the feel. That's how I approach 99% of the stuff I look at. If it doesn't strike some emotion I find it difficult to make any comment.

DadaKopf

Great post. I heartily endorse all those points.

Greysoul

This site pretty much sums up my feelings on C&C.

Great thread though, this is the kind of discussion I always love to read here.

FreeAnd..

I think that sums things up perfectly greysoul...

everyone's an "expert" and salt is for pinching...

DeVore

Yeah that was hilarious, though it also proves things the other way and that is that if we didnt know it was, say, David Bailey who took the shot we might be more inclined to be honest about it...

As far as rules goes, I was going to go to a camera club for "lessons" at the start, that idea seems laughable now as I'm thoroughly enjoying mucking about and getting stuff "wrong" lol... Also this forum has fulfilled a lot of the requirements I would have had for joining a club.

DeV.

Valentia

Greysoul wrote:

This site pretty much sums up my feelings on C&C.

Great thread though, this is the kind of discussion I always love to read here.

Thanks for the link Noah. That should make us all fell a little better about ourselves .

sineadw

Ah that was funny

Xios

The internet is such a nice place, the people who write sure do know what's best but all in all, t'was funny to read.

B0rG

Ok, I'll go against "never argue with the woman" rule, but the argument is rather pointless, and so is the citing by the way.

1. If you're asking for critique be prepared that some of it will be in the form "go, do your homework!". Or some of it: this is complete sh - go and reshoot it.

2. The citing made is from already established artist, who did the homework and a lot of it. Now he is established artist and the master of his profession - he knows the basics, he knows the rules (so he knows what to break), composition and technique. He can improvise and he can be creative.

Now a lot of stuff coming there for C&C is by far beoynd criticism, because... well... the author is at early (very early) stage of thier photographic career. The obvious answer is "you must study, and you must do it differently". So there is an imperative here and it's justified.

Tell you a story: I was working as an accounting software consultant, and we had free consulting over the phone (within reasonable time) - there was my favorite client who would try to take advantage of that free consulting service. What pissed me off though: during those sessions he had a nerve telling me not to use specialised computer jargon. Guess what kind of answer he's got?

Same thing here: one asking another person to spend time, looking at his photo, write the review, and on top of it there are sh... load of rules on how to be polite.

mervifwdc

When I ask for c&c on images, I'm asking to know what can I do to improve. I think most folks are the same. I dont really care if the commenter is an expert or not, It's up to me to apply or concider to apply these comments in my future work.

I do like to know when someone says "This does nothing for me", but I far far far prefer to hear "This is crap because you should have "put the subject to the side"/"done this in black and white"/"next time, leave the lens cap on" or whatever! Once I know what folks do not like, I'm learning. Aint that why we are here?

obviously experts in various fields will give better advise, but it's all equal. The fun is deciding which advise is more equal than other advise :rolleyes:

paudie

Borg I don't think Julie is saying ignore standard rules and people with experience, she pretty much said that in her reply to me, what she is saying (if I may Julie) is that there's no point in saying "do your homework" or "that's sh*t go reshoot it", that is just being ignorant and in no way constructive. And it could be completely your point of view. I'm pretty sure most of the people looking for C&C are trying to "study" by asking how to improve their shots.

Also I don't understand how a photo can be beyond criticism, does it really matter how long a person has been taking photos when they ask for C&C?

Maybe I misunderstood you.

B0rG

heh, my line there would be "beyond any criticism", and trust me it's so difficult to hold back

elven

Must be impossible to hold back when you know so much better yourself, eh? Especially after having demonstrated your own undoubtedly fantastic work...

Paudie's bang on. You don't need to ignore stuff that you know works, just for the sake of it. Just bear in mind what they are actually looking for when they ask for advice - and, oh, you could consider actually being civil, even to the point of helpful or even *gasp* <i>nice</i>! If you are going to go to the trouble of considering someone's work, why then give them a useless response like 'study the work of the masters, then re-shoot, throw it away, then re-shoot again', there would be no forum if that's what we all did...

Besides, just because you think that someone is the master of their profession, it doesn't mean that everyone agrees and is striving to be like them. There are just too bloody many ways to do any given thing in photography to consider that, never mind the fact that someone you consider to be a master is someone else's idea of a complete idiot. And generally, people aren't in a position to throw it all in the bin and re-shoot. You have to consider the context of most of the photography in here, generally that it isn't done in a controlled environment which can be recreated at will - never mind the fact that we're not all striving for technical brilliance beyond everything else.

311

I can't give good criticism because I'm not at that stage ,but if I like a shot ,I do prefer to share my view.
Can't help but notice though ,that there are a couple of boards members here that are smart with their critique. I see this as a guise of someone who isn't fully confident of their own work.

Calina

B0rG wrote:

Ok, I'll go against "never argue with the woman" rule, but the argument is rather pointless, and so is the citing by the way.

1. If you're asking for critique be prepared that some of it will be in the form "go, do your homework!". Or some of it: this is complete sh - go and reshoot it.

2. The citing made is from already established artist, who did the homework and a lot of it. Now he is established artist and the master of his profession - he knows the basics, he knows the rules (so he knows what to break), composition and technique. He can improvise and he can be creative.

Now a lot of stuff coming there for C&C is by far beoynd criticism, because... well... the author is at early (very early) stage of thier photographic career. The obvious answer is "you must study, and you must do it differently". So there is an imperative here and it's justified.

b0rg, it isn't a big deal to be reasonably polite. If someone is asking for c&c, the chances are they are looking for some clues. Saying "go and do it again, study the masters" is not what I would consider to be constructive.

Telling someone that this is crap go and re-shoot isn't practical in a lot of cases because you are dealing with a single moment in time. They don't get replicated. Someone misses the photo, they miss the photo end of story. They are looking for help to avoid missing it the next time. Is it so hard to pass on the benefit of your acquired experience and advice? For me, not really, although I know on occasion I can be a little on the sharp side.

Mostly I like the C&C threads not just for what someone else can learn from them, but what I can learn from them too. Take Sebzy's picture of the cute puppy from yesterday (I hope you don't mind Sebzy). I'm looking at it. Yes, it's cute overload, and for someone who spends most of their time on watersports/extreme sports it's just a little bit saccherine. But I looked at that photo and could see that the lighting was near perfect, every detail was razor sharp, and although I'd have preferred the puppy minus the ball in his/her (sorry Sebzy) mouth, the net result is here is a photo which I wouldn't take myself but from which I can learn quite a bit. I also know how I would approach it based purely on looking at how Sebzy did.

A lot of the focus has been on what you give to someone asking for C&C. That's a bit disappointing as I think there is a lot you can take from other people's photographs even, and perhaps especially when you are the critic.

If it's hard to be civil to someone starting off, who hasn't learned how to switch off Fully Automatic Mode, who is making some basic compositional errors, then I question the usefulness of any critique. Politeness, for most people, is not a burden, but a way of doing things that mostly I take for granted.

Where I can, I highlight what people are doing right, or what I like about what they are doing. I find people tend to build on that quite a bit faster than "you're doing this wrong, go do it again".

I realise that I haven't contributed so much to various C&Cs lately but I'm afraid I've been debating life over in Commuting and Transport and Accommodation quite a bit lately. I will try to do better. I haven't taken so many photographs lately which is why there is a dearth of stuff from me. But anyone who's ever been over to my blog will know that in general that if I do something you like and you want to know how to do it, I am more than willing to share the benefit of my knowledge - limited as though it may be - with them.

After all, we're all in this for enjoyment, right?

DeVore

I think Julie was saying (and I *certainly* am saying) that you can say "thats **** go reshoot" in a far more polite way. If its too much of anyone's time to say something politely and in a civil tone then not only do I not want them to critique my shots... I dont want them on my site, full stop.

"you must study, and you must do it differently"
Must I? Really? If I dont will the photo-police come around and seize my equipment?
Because the word "must" implies some dreadful consequence and to be honest, one person or even a load of people disliking a picture is not sufficently dreadful for me to consider the word "must" applicable. The world wont end for example. I wont be fined, I just wont advance perhaps as a photographer. Use of more conditional language might be more useful. You "should try"... "Generally portrait pictures look better if you" ... "I would have shot that like this...".
Is this symantics? No, in my honest opinion, its "manners".


When I put a pic up for C&C I want to know two things:

1. Did you like it, did it appeal to you? And why not?

I want to know this because if 9 out of 10 people didnt like it for a given reason then I can extrapolate that in future 9/10 people wont like pictures that have that feature. I might like it, but then I'll keep it to myself or I'll understand that I have a low probability of getting a positive reaction to pictures like that.

2. What do you suggest I do to improve that hit-ratio and my/your enjoyment of the photo.
In this regard I want to know what experienced photographers suggest might make my photograph better. Perhaps we BOTH like the picture but its being held back by something his experience can see while my gut-feeling only senses. If (s)he says "you see that blurring and lack of focus, thats caused by not using a flash while holding the camera in your hand, try a tripod and try the night-flash setting, its the second last one on the dial". Thats C&C gold right there.

Sorry for the essay but I feel quite strongly on this point in a wider setting...

DeV.

Fenster

You all stink.

Wait...

I'm maybe on the fence about feedback. On one hand, you can let a person know what they might do differently, but there's a line to be reached when you start dictating how you would take the photo.

As most of you on Flickr might've noticed, I fav your photo and run away before I have to comment, except for the odd and exceptionally cute or awesome photo.

FreeAnd..

Originally posted by Calina
I realise that I haven't contributed so much to various C&Cs lately but I'm afraid I've been debating life over in Commuting and Transport and Accommodation quite a bit lately.

Forget the C&C here Calina...Ill be lost if you dont keep up the work on accomodation and on TPP...and it might mean that i spend all my time reading your posts exclusively maybe you should just publish a pamphlet that i can subscribe to...

As for the C&C here, it might be worthwhile trying something a little more formal as with some of the C&C groups on flickr. Have a separate thread for C&C or just stick to the using C&C in the title. Personally i am useless at taking the time to give good C&C as it does take time to give more than just 'its nice' or the B0rg approach (sorry for singling you out b0rg but it seems the norm in this thread ) and it requires the 2 valuable seconds that it takes to login..

Only a suggestion and probably not a great one as i wouldnt like to see too many sub threads like the mess that is PhotographyIreland..

Calina

FreeAnd.. wrote:

Forget the C&C here Calina...Ill be lost if you dont keep up the work on accomodation and on TPP...and it might mean that i spend all my time reading your posts exclusively maybe you should just publish a pamphlet that i can subscribe to...

You might want to explore around here...

(but I'm getting weary of reality not biting on the property market)

Dara Robinson

I feel like a bit of a muppet for asking this and I know I'm going to go "duh" when someone tells me but... Whats C&C?

Ruu_Old

Criticism and critique, I believe.

Dara Robinson

Thought as much, but as usual that only came to me after I posted

digitalbeginner

Dara Robinson wrote:

I feel like a bit of a muppet for asking this and I know I'm going to go "duh" when someone tells me but... Whats C&C?

I always thought it was "Comment and Critique" but I have noticed a certain element of "Crush and Criticise"

I have to say I am 100% behind Elven's post. If the object is to support other photographers to take better photos then her approach is the only way. If your intention is to make yourself look more important then you will probably ignore her advice.

B0rG

fruitful argument... too bad it's not Friday...