anyone for a call?

nicnicnic

€250 live tourney 18 players left blinds 500/1000 I'm bb with 33k good aggressive player with wide range for raising makes it 3k playing 60k. small blind calls playing about 35k(only on table two hands and had lost 15k previous in a blind clash no read but get the impression he is not frightened to get them in). I call from BB with KcJc, flop Ks 10d and a rag spade. SB checks, i bet 5k preflop raiser calls SB pushes. I'm pretty sure Sb is squeezing the flush draw and the other player see's me as a LAG and that i can bet the flop with anything. anyone for the call? average is about 22k

Daithio

nicnicnic wrote:

€250 live tourney 18 players left blinds 500/1000 I'm bb with 33k good aggressive player with wide range for raising makes it 3k playing 60k. small blind calls playing about 35k(only on table two hands and had lost 15k previous in a blind clash no read but get the impression he is not frightened to get them in). I call from BB with KcJc, flop Ks 10d and a rag spade. SB checks, i bet 5k preflop raiser calls SB pushes. I'm pretty sure Sb is squeezing the flush draw and the other player see's me as a LAG and that i can bet the flop with anything. anyone for the call? average is about 22k

It's a tough one, but I think I might call. You're mainly worried about KQ and KT I suppose, but it's pretty likely he could have a draw here. You'd have to think that you're ahead of the original raiser anyway, if he just flat called on that board. Looks like he's definitely drawing or maybe has a decent ten/ JJ/QQ. Hard to put the all in guy on a hand really. I think it's close but I probably call after trying to pick up some info on both players.

Mr.Plough

tough spot alright. probably call but wouldnt lose sleep if i laid it down with 18 players left.


EDIT: while were on the subject. MTT on saturday 11 players left ive average stack on button with KJo. flop comes down jh 8h x


got it all in on the flop and lost to two pair.

bops

i don't like it and think i'd fold here
i think the pfr is drawing or is maybe slow playing a monster and the sb has you beat with 2 pair

fk im very pessimistic today!
you have enough chips left and are good enough to fold this and struggle on!

BigCityBanker

bops wrote:

you have enough chips left and are good enough to fold this and struggle on!

.

I think we are behind here too often. KJ aint the hand to be going broke with on a K high flop.

LuckyLloyd

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ntlbell

BigCityBanker wrote:

.

I think we are behind here too often. KJ aint the hand to be going broke with on a K high flop.

What do you think the SB has that we're behind here? that he flat calls from the SB pf and checks an uglyish board?

nicnicnic

I agree to a degree with not playing kj in this position(but i have so the decision is now to call or not). i had been playing very well up to this point making some great calls and big laydowns felt on top of my game and wanted to play as many flops as i could cheaply as the tournament was hitting the steal resteal crash stage, So unless i could get my chips up i was gonna be playing two card poker soon.

anyway I didnt call, I like Datiho's analysis of the hand very close to what i'm thinking at the time. I think I call here 80% of the time, I'm fairly certain the Sb drawing if he has hit two pair or a set i cant see him giving the chance of the free card and i don't see him pushing with QK. he had As3s. but for some reason the initial raiser stopped me from calling, I see him as a tricky player, i for some reason i thought he was getting creative with a big hand (bad read, he said he had A10 but i think he had jQos).

LuckyLloyd

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ntlbell

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Mmm. That is a pretty sick check / push by the small blind. I like

Pretty standard no?

nicnicnic

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Mmm. That is a pretty sick check / push by the small blind. I like. Very tough for you to call.

tough but i should call from, experience it exactly the type of call/pot at this stage of a tournament that gets you a top three finish

LuckyLloyd

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ntlbell

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Why should he assume that his opponents are as weak as they are two hands in to his time at the table? He should think that he will get a call from one of them and can't even be sure that his A is live, therefore - he is just tanking it in and saying "lets go for the double up", which is interesting. I like, but a lot of standard players will call here and hope to complete on the turn as far as I am concerned.

Ah, sorry I didn't see he was only at the table for two hands.

My thinking was. nicnic thinks the tricky player see's him as a lag and will bet any flop, sb could possibly have the read also (obviously not since he's only seen two hands) and reads mr tricky as pretty weak also.

There's 19k in the pot and no one is showing a lot of strenght he has a pretty big draw here, I'd get it in here every time.

bops

LuckyLloyd wrote:

...he is just tanking it in and saying "lets go for the double up", which is interesting. I like, but a lot of standard players will call here and hope to complete on the turn as far as I am concerned.

I think this is a very good play, he has a nut draw and correctly feels that there is a good chance that he will pick up the pot there and then.

the squeeze play works perfectly here - nicky (with the best hand) is forced to fold - only because of the pfr is to act behind him.
the pfr has a week hand which was very probable due to him only calling the flop bet.

If yerman reads it all wrong and gets called - he's not in terrible shape

wp sir

LuckyLloyd

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BigCityBanker

ntlbell wrote:

What do you think the SB has that we're behind here? that he flat calls from the SB pf and checks an uglyish board?

He is only here 2 hands and is hurting after his first hand. We dont know what his range is but it can include KQ, K10, KJ, XX for a set, or a questionably played AK or 1010 (may well be played like as the pot has been raised before them and disguises their hand), as well as many draws. Steaming after losing 15k in the previous pot he can potentially check any of the above hands which have us beat in the hope of getting paid off and rebuilding his stack.

If he has a longer history at the table maybe a decision would be easier.

Hectorjelly

This is an interesting hand from start to finish. Preflop I would be much more inclined to call once there was a second player involved. On the flop what is the purpose of a bet. What info does it give us? Will it tend to make the other players play more honestly or less so. Is a smallish bet inviting trouble? What type of range do we need to put the guy on to make the call?

I actually think this is an good spot for a pure squeeze play by the sb, nicnic by leading has announced he almost certainly does not have a great hand, and so has the preflop raiser by just calling. But I would be more inclined to call with KJ because of that.

nicnicnic

LuckyLloyd wrote:

As above, and to Bops:

I do agree that it is a good play. Nicky can have something marginal and the other dude can be in there with a lot given that his pre - flop range is big. Perfect spot for a move and a perfect read of the situation. I'm just surprised that yer man was able to pick the spot after only being moved to the table as, if you didn't know Nicky and yer man from Adam I reckon it is quite difficult to find the shove in on the draw.

I found out that the two players in the pot travelled together and had swapped %. so sb definitely knew the initials raiser game.

Hector the flop bet 5k into a 9k pot is hopefully taking it down if initial comes back at me I'm giving it up. but if he has none of it I expect him to give it up to me, i know i said he is tricky but I'm pretty sure he has the same opinion of me and doesn't want to play a big pot without the goods. If I'm called by one player then I'm gonna fire bigger on the turn if the card misses the draw.

what do you suggest the optimum play to be on the flop

Hectorjelly

Preflop I would strongly consider reraising, id only call here if I had a specific reason too, ie these guys are donkeys and I can read them well, or they are very loose and may call the reraise with a tonne of hands, or if my image was currently very bad. Just calling here is giving up a perfect spot to take down some chips unopposed.

On the flop I think your bet actually just sets up someone to steal from you, you bet and if anyone raises you fold. Obv the upside of this is that if someone has AA and plays it standardly you save some chips, but you are setting up someone to bluff you. I dont think you can make this bet if the players are in any way decent. If the sb is a donkey you could do it because the pfr will be constrained by the fact that you probbally have a hand destined for showdown, and vice versa.

If you check, the pfr has to act, with the sb after him. I think this gives you a lot more info to play with. You are in good relative position but when you bet you give this up. I would only bet here if my decision was easy if im raised, ie I have a set or nothing, because you are giving up valuable information when raised.

Also, were you concerned that the two players involved in this hand had swapped a %. Do you think this is fair? Do you think there is any chance that could influence the way the hand went? I think if players swap a % then their deal should be cancelled if they end up on the same table.

nicnicnic

Hectorjelly wrote:

Preflop I would strongly consider reraising, id only call here if I had a specific reason too, ie these guys are donkeys and I can read them well, or they are very loose and may call the reraise with a tonne of hands, or if my image was currently very bad. Just calling here is giving up a perfect spot to take down some chips unopposed.

On the flop I think your bet actually just sets up someone to steal from you, you bet and if anyone raises you fold. Obv the upside of this is that if someone has AA and plays it standardly you save some chips, but you are setting up someone to bluff you. I dont think you can make this bet if the players are in any way decent. If the sb is a donkey you could do it because the pfr will be constrained by the fact that you probbally have a hand destined for showdown, and vice versa.

If you check, the pfr has to act, with the sb after him. I think this gives you a lot more info to play with. You are in good relative position but when you bet you give this up. I would only bet here if my decision was easy if im raised, ie I have a set or nothing, because you are giving up valuable information when raised.

Also, were you concerned that the two players involved in this hand had swapped a %. Do you think this is fair? Do you think there is any chance that could influence the way the hand went? I think if players swap a % then their deal should be cancelled if they end up on the same table.

I only found out about the % thing later so it wasnt an issue only said it in relation to Loyds post, to show that they most likely knew each others game well. fair point about % swapper cancelling if on same table

as for checking the flop, well while my bet is a little weak i think its ok. I check as you suggest and I'm pretty sure the pfr will bet, now small blind probably calls. where am I now what information have i gleaned. My way pfr raises I'm out he has none of it as i said i think he folds, he folds then i dont see the push from the sb he is just calling.