Location of motorway service areas in Ireland

probe

While there are no motorway service areas in Ireland (a unique situation in Europe – even including tiny Luxembourg which is smaller than Cork), the NRA will be forced to provide for them in the not too distant future – despite their best efforts at making the Irish road system as user-unfriendly as possible!

It seems to me that all motorway service areas should be located in close proximity to a heavy duty connection to the national grid.

Hydrogen powered cars will need to tank up with hydrogen gas, which is best produced on site at the filling station, a process which will require large quantities of electricity.

Electric cars (with Lithium Ion batteries) can charge their batteries fairly quickly (while one is having coffee or a meal) with a 3 phase 30 amp connection. So they will need to be able to accommodate 100 or more cars in the car park – each sucking in electricity from a 30 amp socket.

Fortunately most of this can be produced by wind and other renewable energy sources. But this will require the ESB carbon junkies to be shut down and Eirgrid to be replaced to open up the electricity production and distribution business.

There is no alternative in the medium / long term. Even the Corrib gas (if they ever manage to deliver same) will have been exhausted. Not to mention the climate impact of using fossil fuels into the future for non essential transportation (eg other than aviation) purposes.

.probe

Capt'n Midnight

Hydrogen is a non-starter unless the storage problem is sorted.

You can also power fuel cells with methanol so you get many of the benefits of Hydrogen without the inefficiencies of generation and the problem of storage (eg: as a gas you need high pressure so the weight of steel is prohibitive , as a liquid you loose about 3% a day through evaporative cooling, as a Hydride you need release energy, as adsorbed on to a solid you need espensive solids. - you can also generate Hydrogen from methanol )

google for DMFC

probe

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Hydrogen is a non-starter unless the storage problem is sorted.

You can also power fuel cells with methanol so you get many of the benefits of Hydrogen without the inefficiencies of generation and the problem of storage (eg: as a gas you need high pressure so the weight of steel is prohibitive , as a liquid you loose about 3% a day through evaporative cooling, as a Hydride you need release energy, as adsorbed on to a solid you need espensive solids. - you can also generate Hydrogen from methanol )

google for DMFC

The power output of this technology is only suitable for laptops and mobile phones. If it can deliver 100 kW to an electric car in future, great! Irrespective, it doesn't cost anything to put motorway service areas in the right location for electricity forming part of the solution.

It would be dumb to ignore this location issue in planning terms now. The ultimate and or transitional transportation energy solution will have an electricity component.

.probe

Capt'n Midnight

as I said before "you can also generate Hydrogen from methanol "

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/chinese_demonst.html

The fuel cell generated maximum power output of 75.5kW, with the methanol reformer providing a stable hydrogen supply of 70.5 Nm3/hr. The reformed gas contained 53 vol% hydrogen, and CO content was around 20 ppm.
...
In 2002, NECAR 5 clocked up a long-distance record for a fuel-cell-powered vehicle of 5,250 kilometers (3,263 miles) when it completed a trans-American journey from San Francisco to Washington.

The NECAR 5 fuel-cell stack delivered 75 kW of power. The car had a top speed of more than 145 kmh (90 mph), and a range of more than 400 kilometers (250 miles).

CO from petrol cars can be 10,000ppm

probe

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

as I said before "you can also generate Hydrogen from methanol "

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/chinese_demonst.htmlCO from petrol cars can be 10,000ppm

If the Chinese or anyone else can produce a low CO2 methanol energy source (end to end), I’m all for it.

Where is all the methanol raw material going to come from? What non-renewable energy is involved in producing same?

Most methanol production today comes from natural gas, oil or coal inputs.


.probe

Clare gunner

Hydrogen powered cars will need to tank up with hydrogen gas, which is best produced on site at the filling station, a process which will require large quantities of electricity.

And is only about 100% more dangerous and explosive in liquid form than gasoline.Is 100% more difficult to produce and transfer safely from tank to car tank.
Ask NASA,they fly the space shuttle on this,or check out the Hindenburg disaster to see how dangerous this stuff is in gas form.You would want to make sure that you have no static electricty around your body or gas leak if you start up the car in the morning.:eek: :eek:

fits

probe wrote:

If the Chinese or anyone else can produce a low CO2 methanol energy source (end to end), I’m all for it.

Where is all the methanol raw material going to come from? What non-renewable energy is involved in producing same?

Most methanol production today comes from natural gas, oil or coal inputs.


.probe

My chemistry is very rusty nowadays, but wouldnt it be possible to make it from methane gas, of which cows produce rather a lot?

Capt'n Midnight

Clare gunner wrote:

Ask NASA,they fly the space shuttle on this,or check out the Hindenburg disaster to see how dangerous this stuff is in gas form.

Point of information - the Hindenburg wasn't a pure hydrogen fire. The outer skin had a thing coating of "thermite" and that's why it burned faster than hydrogen by itself - also other fuels were involved too. Hydrogen fires are non-luminous so very little heat is transfered by radiation so it doesn't have yellow/orange flames trigger other fires as easily. Despite the ferocity of the fire only 1/3 of the people died. And of the 35 who died 9 survived died later of their injuries. Many of those may have survived today due to advances in medicine. Imagine a plane crash with similar fires - would you expect anyone at all to survive.

http://www.hindenburg.net/passcrew.htm

            Passengers /Crew / 	Total
Total 	          36 	  61 	 97
Survived 	23 	39 	62
Perished 	13 	22 	35

fits wrote:

My chemistry is very rusty nowadays, but wouldnt it be possible to make it from methane gas, of which cows produce rather a lot?

yes - steam-methane reformation
you can burn most carbon products (domestic waste etc) in air and then blast steam through the hot coals to produce a gas rich in hydrogen and carbon monoxide - this can then be converted to methanol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol

CH4 + H2O → CO + 3 H2 synthesis gas
2 CH4 + O2 → 2 CO + 4 H2 steam-methane reforming
CO + H2O → CO2 + H2 water-gas shift reaction,
CO + 2 H2 → CH3OH production of methanol
CO2 + 3 H2 → CH3OH + H2O also used

Methanol is a very handy way to store Hydrogen's energy and it's safer then petrol.

Cian R

A motorway service station is planned for Inch on the N11 Gorey bypass when it will be upgraded to Motorway.